Cwejman ADSR's impact on sound

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Gringo Starr
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Cwejman ADSR's impact on sound

Post by Gringo Starr » Fri Sep 04, 2020 2:32 pm

I've noticed that Cwejman ADSR's make things sound more pleasing to my ears. I'm not just talking about the snappy attack you can get with Cwejman ADSR's which seems to be what's often talked about. Even with slower attack times and various settings throughout when I run Cwejman ADSR's into the cv of filters or VCA's something noticeable happens that's more pleasing to my ears than when I use the Befaco VC-ADSR or Dopefer ADSR. Both of those are solid ADSR's. I'm not ripping on either of those.

I always had it in my head that the attack of an ADSR is what set different ADSR's apart. I assumed decay, sustain, and release were pretty straight forward from one to another but my experience with the Cwejman ADSR proves otherwise.

Speaking of ADSR's specifically I'm curious if any other eurorack users have an ADSR from Cwejman or any other company that you've noticed had a subtle but noticeable impact on the sound that's being affected by it compared to other ADSR's. It still kinda doesn't make sense to me but I can't deny what I'm hearing.

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Re: Cwejman ADSR's impact on sound

Post by DSC » Fri Sep 04, 2020 2:43 pm

Based on your subject line and your signature line, you need to get some better weed :D

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Re: Cwejman ADSR's impact on sound

Post by qu.one » Fri Sep 04, 2020 2:54 pm

I can attest to feeling the same way when i had a cwejman centric system. i actually feel like my Deepmind12 yields similar results for me in regards to things sounding musical. they are robust - especially with curve selection.

it's a feeling more than anything.
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Gringo Starr
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Re: Cwejman ADSR's impact on sound

Post by Gringo Starr » Fri Sep 04, 2020 3:00 pm

DSC wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 2:43 pm
Based on your subject line and your signature line, you need to get some better weed :D
:lol: :lol: :lol:

I haven't smoked in about a year and a half. For some reason I'm appreciating the buzz of clarity these days but yes maybe illusions can still creep into the picture.
qu.one wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 2:54 pm
it's a feeling more than anything.
Yes that's probably a much better way to say what I was trying to say with this post. It's more of a feeling than an actual change of sound although the way the sound moves with the Cwejman ADSR seems to have an effect on the initial impact of the sound.

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mdoudoroff
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Re: Cwejman ADSR's impact on sound

Post by mdoudoroff » Fri Sep 04, 2020 3:37 pm

Sounds like the Cwejman Reality Distortion Field at work. Most hi-fi nuts are also convinced their ludicrously expensive speaker cables make a difference, too.

As long as y’all are happy. :goo:

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Gringo Starr
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Re: Cwejman ADSR's impact on sound

Post by Gringo Starr » Fri Sep 04, 2020 3:48 pm

mdoudoroff wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 3:37 pm
Sounds like the Cwejman Reality Distortion Field at work. Most hi-fi nuts are also convinced their ludicrously expensive speaker cables make a difference, too.

As long as y’all are happy. :goo:
Haha... such a passive aggressive comment followed by "as long as ya'll are happy :goo: ". Nice. :yay:

So do you think that all ADSR's are exactly identical in the way they modulate? And if not is it possible that one might have a more pleasing effect than another?

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Re: Cwejman ADSR's impact on sound

Post by DSC » Fri Sep 04, 2020 3:51 pm

Man the new weed is really good, cause I smell the wine and cheese platter coming.

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Re: Cwejman ADSR's impact on sound

Post by Gringo Starr » Fri Sep 04, 2020 3:55 pm

DSC wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 3:51 pm
Man the new weed is really good, cause I smell the wine and cheese platter coming.
Ahhhh!!!! Good memory! That’s surprising considering the new weed is good. :party:

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Re: Cwejman ADSR's impact on sound

Post by mdoudoroff » Fri Sep 04, 2020 4:51 pm

Gringo Starr wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 3:48 pm
So do you think that all ADSR's are exactly identical in the way they modulate? And if not is it possible that one might have a more pleasing effect than another?
Nah, they’re certainly not all identical, but in the end, they’re still ADSRs. There’s some room for nuance in implementation. If you’re hearing consistently preferable results from your ADSR-VC2 (or whatever) compared to your other ADSRs, then there’s probably a reason that is identifiable with the aid of a scope. It could be something as simple as amplitude, non-linear behavior, or even a happy artifact. Could be interesting to find out.

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Re: Cwejman ADSR's impact on sound

Post by nios » Fri Sep 04, 2020 5:20 pm

Possibly it could be the specific curvature settings on its log/expo modes that you prefer, in which case I'd suggest fiddling more with the curve setting on the Befaco for example to get them closer. That or perhaps the voltage on the outs is a little stronger than normal which would push it a little further, assuming it's actually anything at all truly different.

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Re: Cwejman ADSR's impact on sound

Post by ersatzplanet » Fri Sep 04, 2020 5:29 pm

nios wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 5:20 pm
Possibly it could be the specific curvature settings on its log/expo modes that you prefer, in which case I'd suggest fiddling more with the curve setting on the Befaco for example to get them closer. That or perhaps the voltage on the outs is a little stronger than normal which would push it a little further, assuming it's actually anything at all truly different.
I was about to post a similar response. I imagine that the curvature of the attack is different on many different Envelope Generators in general. Some are more linear, some are concave log and some convex log. All this can add to the way we perceive the sound. Simply think of the differences a log pot verses a linear po have when you run audio thru them and turn the pots. Put that in the dynamic world of a EG and a VCA. I imagine a similar thing happens between different VCAs with different input CV response curves. If your system is all Cwejman, then the Cwejman VCAs CV input response curve may be more matched to the Cwejman Envelope generators output curve.
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Re: Cwejman ADSR's impact on sound

Post by kwaidan » Fri Sep 04, 2020 5:40 pm

The ModCan Quad ADSR has four different curvature options, and you can clearly hear the difference between each one when you scroll through them.

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Re: Cwejman ADSR's impact on sound

Post by J_Behan » Sat Sep 05, 2020 4:25 am

The shape of an ADSR envelope can certainly have an impact on how a timbre is perceived. It's a well known acoustic phenomenon. But if two different EG generators were outputting identical ADSR shapes over two identical tones, then both tones will sound the same.
I'd be surprised if there was a particular EG module that could output a variety of envelope shapes, whereby everything you put through any envelope it produced, just sounds 'better'. That just makes no sense.

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Re: Cwejman ADSR's impact on sound

Post by richc90 » Wed Sep 09, 2020 2:23 am

I watched an interview with Wowa where he said that he has used unique curves -- I think he mentioned a "semi log" curve implemented in some modules -- that mimic acoustic phenomena.

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Re: Cwejman ADSR's impact on sound

Post by mother misty » Wed Sep 09, 2020 4:46 am

richc90 wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 2:23 am
I watched an interview with Wowa where he said that he has used unique curves -- I think he mentioned a "semi log" curve implemented in some modules -- that mimic acoustic phenomena.
I would love to see some of these unique curves on an oscilloscope. I think most of us know how a log/lin/exp curve behaves, but to me it’s less clear how a “semi-log” curve behaves, or a hyper-exponential one (Maths for example).

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Re: Cwejman ADSR's impact on sound

Post by acidbob » Wed Sep 09, 2020 5:30 am

Out of all my envelopes the Cwejman ADSR is the one that I practically never use and I dont really like it, its like the curve is off somehow.
However the Frequency central System X ADSR is totally awesome, but it doesnt have the same CV control as the Cwejman.

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Re: Cwejman ADSR's impact on sound

Post by Neutron7 » Wed Sep 09, 2020 8:02 am

Compare it to some others on an oscilloscope. (do it with a mult on the output so it is still driving the VCA, the scope has almost no input resistance, but VCA's control input's load could make a difference)

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Re: Cwejman ADSR's impact on sound

Post by ersatzplanet » Thu Sep 10, 2020 11:58 am

The impact of the ADSR's shape on the sound also can't be separated from the devices it is controlling. Many VCAs have different response curves and so do filters. Some, like the 4ms VCAMatrix have soft knee compression built in. All of this interacts. I would imagine that Cwejman ADSRs are matched to their VCAs which may make them better in a combination than either one is by itself.
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Re: Cwejman ADSR's impact on sound

Post by wiperactive » Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:31 pm

acidbob wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 5:30 am
... However the Frequency central System X ADSR is totally awesome, but it doesnt have the same CV control as the Cwejman.
Hope I'm not stretching this thread off course too much, but I'm contemplating getting the FC System X (dual) ADSR kit on that widely positive reputation, but wondered if an attempted and desired CV input mod might 'interfere' with those desired characteristics. I say this as the Doepfer A-140 is known as a 'punchy' ADSR but when the CV version, the now superseded A-141 came out, it seemed to become a bit more 'sluggish' in its response.

Does the additional implementation of CV control necessarily 'modify' aspects of response?

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Re: Cwejman ADSR's impact on sound

Post by mvdirty » Thu Sep 10, 2020 3:18 pm

It could be real, it could be the RDF, who knows, but if there’s one thing I’ve learned in euro so far: Scope everything.

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Re: Cwejman ADSR's impact on sound

Post by scragz » Thu Sep 10, 2020 5:53 pm

mdoudoroff wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 3:37 pm
Most hi-fi nuts are also convinced their ludicrously expensive speaker cables make a difference, too.
My CV is much more controlling when I patch with gold plated Monster (tm) cables.

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Re: Cwejman ADSR's impact on sound

Post by pekbro » Thu Sep 10, 2020 6:16 pm

Man I was excited as I actually found a couple places that had some Cwejman modules in stock.
Some of this discussion has thrown a wet blanket on that excitement. Fortunately, I live on Maui,
where the weed is always good and plentiful.

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Re: Cwejman ADSR's impact on sound

Post by mvdirty » Thu Sep 10, 2020 6:48 pm

pekbro wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 6:16 pm
Man I was excited as I actually found a couple places that had some Cwejman modules in stock.
Some of this discussion has thrown a wet blanket on that excitement. Fortunately, I live on Maui,
where the weed is always good and plentiful.
Hang onto that cash for at least a bit. Maybe we’ll soon see some scope images posted that show us all some tantalizing curves.

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Re: Cwejman ADSR's impact on sound

Post by DSC » Thu Sep 10, 2020 7:01 pm

pekbro wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 6:16 pm
Fortunately, I live on Maui, where the weed is always good and plentiful.
Image

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Re: Cwejman ADSR's impact on sound

Post by damase » Thu Sep 10, 2020 8:12 pm

im gonna go against the grain here and say personally i think if it sounds good to you then thats all you need. you shouldnt need a forum of people requesting scope images and claiming snake oil to confirm something you already feel. id even go as far to say why should i care at all about the scope image if I like what i hear?

people tend to hate on expensive stuff just because its expensive. but that doesnt make it any less good than what you hear or feel yourself about it. That doesn't discredit anything that is cheaper in price as being less great... theres no reason you cant use both, either, or whatever works best for you
pekbro wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 6:16 pm
Man I was excited as I actually found a couple places that had some Cwejman modules in stock.
Some of this discussion has thrown a wet blanket on that excitement. Fortunately, I live on Maui,
where the weed is always good and plentiful.
id say buying new :cwejman: is a fairly risk-free endeavor. you dont like it? sell it on for the exact same price you bought - ahh you live in Hawaii though sorry :doh:

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