Individual module....dedicated power switch ?

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Midiot
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Individual module....dedicated power switch ?

Post by Midiot » Sat Sep 12, 2020 4:25 pm

Individual module....dedicated power switches ?

....Are there any 1hp or 2 hp ....simple "power-switch" on a faceplate... for the specific duty of leaving some modules un-powered until you need use them ?
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ersatzplanet
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Re: Individual module....dedicated power switch ?

Post by ersatzplanet » Sat Sep 12, 2020 5:17 pm

This would be useful for some digital modules that want to be rebooted to load new cards into (or when you forgot the Vulcan death grip button combo). Pretty easy to make but would probably require to switch off both the + and - supplies and maybe a 5v line if the module uses it. In most cases a DPST switch wired to a ribbon cable cut in half would be all that is needed.
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Midiot
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Re: Individual module....dedicated power switch ?

Post by Midiot » Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:11 pm

Why not fit 4-6 switches on 2 hp. ?
....for 4-6 modules ?
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Re: Individual module....dedicated power switch ?

Post by Flounderguts » Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:14 pm

Midiot wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:11 pm
Why not fit 4-6 switches on 2 hp. ?
....for 4-6 modules ?
but why?

If you need to reboot digital modules, a momentary NC switch would do it. What module uses so much power you want to turn it off? Flux capacitor?
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Midiot
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Re: Individual module....dedicated power switch ?

Post by Midiot » Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:16 pm

ersatzplanet wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 5:17 pm

Yes, it would eliminate certain modules from being powered-on.... unnecessarily.
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Re: Individual module....dedicated power switch ?

Post by Midiot » Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:22 pm

I have a few rarely-used modules that have an eternally-on screens.
That's a good enough reason right there... for a power switch, to turn them off
.

....not to mention powering off devices with possible digital noise or analog cross-over noise.
Why power things you are not currently using ?
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Re: Individual module....dedicated power switch ?

Post by mskala » Sat Sep 12, 2020 10:48 pm

Patching signals into a powered-down module is unwise. Usually the absolute maximum ratings on inputs of ICs are along the lines of "any voltage between the power rails." An unpowered IC will usually have its power rails at zero, and a signal voltage that would be ordinary and expected when the IC is powered up, will be well outside the power rails and possibly stressing the protection diodes when the IC is powered down. Whether that's really a problem would depend on the impedance of the output driving it, the specific IC in question, and the design of the module that includes the IC. I would expect it to usually be harmless in practice. But I also would recommend avoiding it. The section on the data sheet called ABSOLUTE MAXIMUM RATINGS is called that for a reason; you violate those limits at your peril; and signals into a powered-down IC frequently are outside the limits. Patching from a powered output into an unpowered input is at least as dangerous as patching output to output, and we traditionally warn beginners against that one.

Having per-module power switches doesn't absolutely mean that you will someday forget to turn on a module before patching it it. Maybe you plan to just be really careful all the time and maybe you'll actually succeed in sticking to your plan. But it seems like an unnecessary risk to create for yourself, in exchange for a questionable benefit.
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Re: Individual module....dedicated power switch ?

Post by Phitar » Sun Sep 13, 2020 5:41 pm

mskala wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 10:48 pm
Patching signals into a powered-down module is unwise. Usually the absolute maximum ratings on inputs of ICs are along the lines of "any voltage between the power rails." An unpowered IC will usually have its power rails at zero, and a signal voltage that would be ordinary and expected when the IC is powered up, will be well outside the power rails and possibly stressing the protection diodes when the IC is powered down. Whether that's really a problem would depend on the impedance of the output driving it, the specific IC in question, and the design of the module that includes the IC. I would expect it to usually be harmless in practice. But I also would recommend avoiding it. The section on the data sheet called ABSOLUTE MAXIMUM RATINGS is called that for a reason; you violate those limits at your peril; and signals into a powered-down IC frequently are outside the limits. Patching from a powered output into an unpowered input is at least as dangerous as patching output to output, and we traditionally warn beginners against that one.

Having per-module power switches doesn't absolutely mean that you will someday forget to turn on a module before patching it it. Maybe you plan to just be really careful all the time and maybe you'll actually succeed in sticking to your plan. But it seems like an unnecessary risk to create for yourself, in exchange for a questionable benefit.
So we shouldn't be leaving any modules patched up when turning power on or off? Or am just I not reading this right?
I tend to leave things patched for several sessions (days or weeks sometimes) and I always power down everything when I head to bed or work. I have a couple of racks fed by uZeus power and not every module gets powered on or off at the same instant. Is this an issue I should be having concerns about? :hmm:

Even if I did have a single rack with a single unified power source there would still be modules that have a boot delay on start up where they are not fully functional for a few seconds.....
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Re: Individual module....dedicated power switch ?

Post by mskala » Sun Sep 13, 2020 11:01 pm

Phitar wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 5:41 pm
So we shouldn't be leaving any modules patched up when turning power on or off? Or am just I not reading this right?
I leave my synth patched while turning it on and off. If the modules are all on the same power supply then there should be no problem. I wouldn't patch between two racks and power up one of them without powering up the other on the same switch.

A "boot delay" isn't really the same issue because the module that takes a while to get ready is receiving power even if the computer inside it takes a while to wake up. The issue is with applying a powered signal while the module in question is not receiving power at all. Some old-fashioned tube circuits (e.g. RF amplifiers used in ham radio) might have staged power-on with time-delay relays so that the actual power takes a while to come on after you flip the switch, but those same kinds of circuits tend to be more resilient to receiving input while unpowered than a modern IC would be anyway.
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Re: Individual module....dedicated power switch ?

Post by Muff McMuff » Sun Sep 13, 2020 11:19 pm

I have 3 Uzeus in one case and often turn it on patched up. All three will be cross patched. I flip the switches one by one they are directly above each other so it may take a second. I am doing exactly what i shouldn't and have been for 18 months or so. All modules seem fine so far. I could leave them all "on" and power up with the switch on the power strip then all three will power up simultaneously. Or 18 months of doing it the wrong way with no problems may suggest its not an issue?

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Re: Individual module....dedicated power switch ?

Post by chriscarter » Mon Sep 14, 2020 2:33 am

I think it's a great idea.
I had to do exactly this and build two dedicated power switch panels as it was literally the only solution to my module problems. I have an AD Dub Jnr mk2 and a Roland 572 module neither of which will boot up when my cabinets are switched on, unless I continually switch on/switch off the cabinet - which obviously cannot be good for all the other modules in the cabinet. Now I just switch those modules on when I need them (after the cabinet is powered up) - works every time now.

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Re: Individual module....dedicated power switch ?

Post by señor-bling » Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:03 am

Muff McMuff wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 11:19 pm
Or 18 months of doing it the wrong way with no problems may suggest its not an issue?
I think mskala simply pointed out the potential risks involved. In theory every module might break the next time you use it for various reasons. By patching a powered into an unpowered module you might increase the chance of breaking by a small amount - how small depends on each module's design. Whether that risk is worth taking is up to you. Just because nothing has happened so far doesn't mean the risk doesn't exist at all.

That said, I'd like to have one or two of those switches as well. I have an O&C that sometimes doesn't power up on first try. And should I ever get one of those Audio Damage modules, I'd probably need a switch for that.
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Re: Individual module....dedicated power switch ?

Post by Muff McMuff » Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:36 am

señor-bling wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:03 am
Muff McMuff wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 11:19 pm
Or 18 months of doing it the wrong way with no problems may suggest its not an issue?
I think mskala simply pointed out the potential risks involved. In theory every module might break the next time you use it for various reasons. By patching a powered into an unpowered module you might increase the chance of breaking by a small amount - how small depends on each module's design. Whether that risk is worth taking is up to you. Just because nothing has happened so far doesn't mean the risk doesn't exist at all.

That said, I'd like to have one or two of those switches as well. I have an O&C that sometimes doesn't power up on first try. And should I ever get one of those Audio Damage modules, I'd probably need a switch for that.
Well quite a common post on Muffs for modules that have stopped working is a variation on "it was working fine until i powered it today" . I have read that many times and could have been caused by just powering up a patched up rack or two. I was not aware of the problem until this post today.

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Re: Individual module....dedicated power switch ?

Post by Benoist » Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:15 pm

I dreamt once of a normalized location ( like up- left ) of tiny power buttons / tiny green LEDs on every modules I have because of :
- HEAT!!!! I leave in a cramped place fully exposed to the sun that really doesn't need extra heat at all ( even in winter at times )
- Unnecessary power use, since I rarely use more than 50 % modules in a case at a time, it's like letting a faucet opened with no purpose of filling something.
- Unnecessary module wear when not used in a patch

I circumvented this just a little tiny bit with dedicated cases that I can turn on when needed : the oscillators case that is sampled, when it's played on the Assimil8or case the oscillators case is off and so on ...

I'am ready to pay the extra cost and deal with a more crowded interface anytime, just wondering why it hasn't been implemented yet, is it like asking why your car can't fly ?

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Re: Individual module....dedicated power switch ?

Post by Phitar » Wed Sep 16, 2020 4:18 pm

Muff McMuff wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 11:19 pm
I have 3 Uzeus in one case and often turn it on patched up. All three will be cross patched. I flip the switches one by one they are directly above each other so it may take a second. I am doing exactly what i shouldn't and have been for 18 months or so. All modules seem fine so far. I could leave them all "on" and power up with the switch on the power strip then all three will power up simultaneously. Or 18 months of doing it the wrong way with no problems may suggest its not an issue?
Yeah, I have two racks powered by 4 uZeus and have been flipping them on and off one at a time too with no issues (so far). He did say "I would expect it to usually be harmless in practice." I'm all good with that but I'm also a cheap bastard who loves his gear like children and don't want any modules going into harm's way if possible so I'll probably change my habits and power everything on at once via my surge protector panel switch.

I have a multi-decade history of work in electronics but those 50 or so years have all been in troubleshooting, repair and building other's designs. Mskala is a module designer (damn good one too) and has to have a good working knowledge of components, their internals and their limitations. I'm going to go with his advice on this one. Anyway.... I don't want to get into a habit of having to read component datasheets just to see if I can safely power a patched module. :eek:
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Re: Individual module....dedicated power switch ?

Post by brandonlogic » Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:38 pm

i think its a good idea, specifically for modules with screens without screen savers to prevent burn in.
might as well kill em if im not using them in a particular patch and my systems going be be on for hours...

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Re: Individual module....dedicated power switch ?

Post by pekbro » Wed Sep 16, 2020 7:49 pm

Interesting, I have one case that I made with 2 independent power supplies and distribution, in case
I am only wanting to use one row. I don't do that a lot, but sometimes. Not really while they are patched
as there's not much use in that. It is a similar situation to the multiple uzeus's though as they are on
separate switches.

*This probably has to apply to anyone who is using multiple cases actually. Maybe leaving them on
and turning them on and off via power strip is a good idea?

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