plz bless me w/ ur wisdom veteran wigglers (build critique)

Cwejman, Livewire, TipTop Audio, Doepfer etc... Get your euro on!

Moderators: Kent, Joe., luketeaford, lisa

Post Reply
User avatar
goonlord
Learning to Wiggle
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun May 31, 2015 10:45 pm

plz bless me w/ ur wisdom veteran wigglers (build critique)

Post by goonlord » Mon Oct 12, 2020 1:52 am

I am currently building a system around the mother-32, and I am really overwhelmed on which direction I should go. My original plan was to add a 0-Coast, however this is proving to be rather difficult—all the vendors are backed up on orders until January. With that, I have decided that I should just take the plunge into a more complex system since the money is here at the moment.

The modules I have selected to expand on the mother-32 are as follows:

https://www.modulargrid.net/e/racks/view/1319107

MN STO — 2nd Oscillator with log/exp FM
MN MATHS — EG/multi-tool
MN Optomix — LPG + VCA duties
Intellijel BiFold — Wavefolder + Ring Mod
Doepfer A-118-2 — Noise / Random / T&H / S&H
Intellijel QuadVCA — VCA + mixing duties
ALM Pam’s New Workout — clocking + modulation
Buffered Mult

All sequences would be generated with the mother-32, either using the onboard sequencer, or midi that’s being sent from Ableton. I would mainly be using the system for IDM/Pop stuff, although I am highly interested in creating generative patches as well.

Is this a conceptually sound system? (pun kind of intended)
Attachments
CAFB4788-399D-419B-8186-1AEE912143FA.png
Last edited by goonlord on Mon Oct 12, 2020 10:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

adg672
Wiggling with Experience
Posts: 255
Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2014 5:53 am

Re: plz bless me w/ ur wisdom veteran wrigglers (build critique)

Post by adg672 » Mon Oct 12, 2020 2:14 am

Think you’ve chosen really well. Flexible modulation, plenty VCAs/LPGs - while I’ve got and love the STO, I’d swap it for something like a Generate3 which is, for me, far more versatile. Maybe another dedicated filter?

User avatar
goonlord
Learning to Wiggle
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun May 31, 2015 10:45 pm

Re: plz bless me w/ ur wisdom veteran wrigglers (build critique)

Post by goonlord » Mon Oct 12, 2020 10:32 am

adg672 wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 2:14 am
Think you’ve chosen really well. Flexible modulation, plenty VCAs/LPGs - while I’ve got and love the STO, I’d swap it for something like a Generate3 which is, for me, far more versatile. Maybe another dedicated filter?
Thanks for the feedback! As it stands, I do have my eye on an STO for a pretty good price, the generate3 would definitely be pushing my budget a little bit.

Do you have any filter recommendations? I was considering the Doepfer SEM filter, or Three Sisters, but again, the latter does push my budget a tad bit.

I should also mention that I have a Moog Grandmother and Subharmonicon in storage. I want the above build to be self contained, but at some point, it will be interacting with subby and granny
Last edited by goonlord on Mon Oct 12, 2020 11:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Joey P.
Wiggling with Experience
Posts: 400
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2019 1:55 am
Location: Washington DC

Re: plz bless me w/ ur wisdom veteran wigglers (build critique)

Post by Joey P. » Mon Oct 12, 2020 10:52 am

If you're mainly sequencing, I'd hold off on the filter. Between the Optomix and the Bifold, you'll get plenty of tonal variation for sequenced notes. Although, I'd probably trade the STO and Bifold for an DPO.

adg672
Wiggling with Experience
Posts: 255
Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2014 5:53 am

Re: plz bless me w/ ur wisdom veteran wigglers (build critique)

Post by adg672 » Mon Oct 12, 2020 10:53 am

Was going to suggest a Three Sisters, be a good complement to the Moog. Doepfer’s got loads of option that are good value, depends on the sound you’re after. I really like the Sara VCF too - great sounding dual filter at a good price.

If you can get an STO at a good price, go for it - it’s a quality osc.

xntrk
Common Wiggler
Posts: 122
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2020 7:55 am

Re: plz bless me w/ ur wisdom veteran wigglers (build critique)

Post by xntrk » Mon Oct 12, 2020 11:05 am

Optamix and quad vca have a bit of overlap. I would buy one and use it for a while before picking up the other. I don’t use low pass gates on my optamix very often so I would go for a quad vca first it will give you more mixing and attenuation options then optamix.

Another option besides the quad vca is mutable instruments veils. A new version is coming out soon that’s only 10hp

User avatar
goonlord
Learning to Wiggle
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun May 31, 2015 10:45 pm

Re: plz bless me w/ ur wisdom veteran wigglers (build critique)

Post by goonlord » Mon Oct 12, 2020 11:58 am

Joey P. wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 10:52 am
If you're mainly sequencing, I'd hold off on the filter. Between the Optomix and the Bifold, you'll get plenty of tonal variation for sequenced notes. Although, I'd probably trade the STO and Bifold for an DPO.

I’ve been gassing for a DPO since I first started learning about modulars, but I figured it’d be more fun to make my own complex oscillator set. Can I feed external signals to the DPOs wavefolder section?

xntrk wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 11:05 am
Optamix and quad vca have a bit of overlap. I would buy one and use it for a while before picking up the other. I don’t use low pass gates on my optamix very often so I would go for a quad vca first it will give you more mixing and attenuation options then optamix.

Another option besides the quad vca is mutable instruments veils. A new version is coming out soon that’s only 10hp

As it stands, I already have the QuadVCA! I did figure there was overlap between the QuadVCA and the optomix. The main use for the optomix would be as a LPG. I do not have any practical experience with west coast synthesis, so I wanted to diversify the “filtering” options that I had. Are there any other LPGs you can recommend? Or do you think I could forgo LPGs altogether in this system?

xntrk
Common Wiggler
Posts: 122
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2020 7:55 am

Re: plz bless me w/ ur wisdom veteran wigglers (build critique)

Post by xntrk » Mon Oct 12, 2020 3:09 pm

My comments were more about optamix vs quad vca. If you are specifically looking for a lpg I think optamix is great. There is a slight difference between optamix v1 and v2. So if you are looking for used as well it’s something to be aware of.

Generally buffered mults are only needed for pitch CV. If you want copy gates you can do that in zero hp with splitter. So might not need it depending on how you were planning on using it

adg672
Wiggling with Experience
Posts: 255
Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2014 5:53 am

Re: plz bless me w/ ur wisdom veteran wigglers (build critique)

Post by adg672 » Mon Oct 12, 2020 3:25 pm

The optomix and quad vca are different enough to be worth keeping, you’ll quickly use them up in a patch. Can always sell one if not for you.

Another option could be the Borg dual filter/LPG - gives you a piece of both worlds in one module. Both sides can be used together or independently so pretty flexible.
Last edited by adg672 on Mon Oct 12, 2020 3:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

adg672
Wiggling with Experience
Posts: 255
Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2014 5:53 am

Re: plz bless me w/ ur wisdom veteran wigglers (build critique)

Post by adg672 » Mon Oct 12, 2020 3:26 pm

Double post

User avatar
goonlord
Learning to Wiggle
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun May 31, 2015 10:45 pm

Re: plz bless me w/ ur wisdom veteran wigglers (build critique)

Post by goonlord » Tue Oct 13, 2020 1:37 pm

adg672 wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 3:25 pm
The optomix and quad vca are different enough to be worth keeping, you’ll quickly use them up in a patch. Can always sell one if not for you.

Another option could be the Borg dual filter/LPG - gives you a piece of both worlds in one module. Both sides can be used together or independently so pretty flexible.
I am curious—do you think the moddemix would be too much overlap, considering I’ll be racking the optomix and quadvca?

From what I understand, the moddemix is a vca with a lot of character. Someone is selling one locally for dirt cheap atm.

adg672
Wiggling with Experience
Posts: 255
Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2014 5:53 am

Re: plz bless me w/ ur wisdom veteran wigglers (build critique)

Post by adg672 » Tue Oct 13, 2020 2:43 pm

goonlord wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 1:37 pm
adg672 wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 3:25 pm
The optomix and quad vca are different enough to be worth keeping, you’ll quickly use them up in a patch. Can always sell one if not for you.

Another option could be the Borg dual filter/LPG - gives you a piece of both worlds in one module. Both sides can be used together or independently so pretty flexible.
I am curious—do you think the moddemix would be too much overlap, considering I’ll be racking the optomix and quadvca?

From what I understand, the moddemix is a vca with a lot of character. Someone is selling one locally for dirt cheap atm.
They’re a fair bit different to be worth giving it a try if it’s super cheap. The Moddemix is a four quadrant multiplier so will give you ring modulation amongst to other things, the Quad VCA is a two quadrant so gives you AM. Both nice VCAs and plenty of mileage exploring them.

xntrk
Common Wiggler
Posts: 122
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2020 7:55 am

Re: plz bless me w/ ur wisdom veteran wigglers (build critique)

Post by xntrk » Tue Oct 13, 2020 3:17 pm

Instead of considering another VCA. It might be worth looking into something like disting or distingEX. These will add a lot of functionality to a system. Disting has a bunch of different algorithms filters, compressors, LFOs, rectifiers, and delays, just to name a few. It would let you explore a bunch of different modules and figure out what the next dedicated modules you would be interested in getting.

User avatar
goonlord
Learning to Wiggle
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun May 31, 2015 10:45 pm

Re: plz bless me w/ ur wisdom veteran wigglers (build critique)

Post by goonlord » Thu Oct 15, 2020 1:15 pm

I’m thinking about racking the Subharmonicon in this build, for the sake of portability. Any suggestions on modules that compliment the Sub well would be highly appreciated.

Would I need a mixer module to bring things to line level? Or could I get away with with using the QuadVCA and an audio interface?

Also—would a module like Rosie be necessary for the system?

I know racking the Moog stuff isn’t the most ideal, but as I mentioned, I do want this system to be some type of transportable.
Attachments
407D214F-DBD8-4C46-AA70-78D2F724EA38.png

User avatar
Dave Peck
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 3682
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2011 1:22 pm
Location: SF bay area

Re: plz bless me w/ ur wisdom veteran wigglers (build critique)

Post by Dave Peck » Thu Oct 15, 2020 1:41 pm

It is highly likely that you do NOT need an audio interface module. Just take your final output from whatever is last in the audio chain - a VCA, a mixer module, etc.

User avatar
Agawell
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1175
Joined: Mon May 04, 2015 3:22 am

Re: plz bless me w/ ur wisdom veteran wigglers (build critique)

Post by Agawell » Thu Oct 15, 2020 1:44 pm

goonlord wrote:
Thu Oct 15, 2020 1:15 pm
Would I need a mixer module to bring things to line level? Or could I get away with with using the QuadVCA and an audio interface?

Also—would a module like Rosie be necessary for the system?
depends on the audio interface - but a vca, an audio interface and some adapter cables will probably do the job - but remember that you need vcas for other things - including modulation

whether or not you need attenuation (which is what would be using the vcas for in this case) is totally dependent on the audio interface - I'd get a 2hp trim module or 2 to cover this instead - they are really handy even if you don't actually need them for this, take no power and are inexpensive

you do probably want some sort of mixing in the rack unless you are going to go straight into an external mixer or audio interface with every voice and have everything you need for each voice, don't want stereo, don't want panning, don't want interesting modulation

re Rosie - almost definitely not - unless you specifically need balanced outputs or a headphone output there is no need for a dedicated output module in most cases

if plugging directly into the audio interface clips, attenuate
if when using the attenuators the sound quality is crap - then try different ways of attenuating (vca, mixer etc)
if still not good enough - start looking towards balanced i/o

if you need a headphone output - alm make one in 2hp
I know racking the Moog stuff isn’t the most ideal, but as I mentioned, I do want this system to be some type of transportable.
it's not like you are welding it in - you can always un-rack it, if you need the space for modules - having neither and only going by limited youtube videos - I think I'd probably replace the mom with modules before the subharmonicon, but I also expect that it would be easy to swap - and anyway you have 2 hands - you can carry 2 cases - and a 3rd on your back (at a push)
Instagram

Utility modules are the inexpensive, dull polish that makes the expensive, shiny modules actually shine!!!

an oscillator is an oscillator - utilities are possibilities

User avatar
goonlord
Learning to Wiggle
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun May 31, 2015 10:45 pm

Re: plz bless me w/ ur wisdom veteran wigglers (build critique)

Post by goonlord » Thu Oct 15, 2020 2:43 pm

Dave Peck wrote:
Thu Oct 15, 2020 1:41 pm
It is highly likely that you do NOT need an audio interface module. Just take your final output from whatever is last in the audio chain - a VCA, a mixer module, etc.
Noted! I was planning on using the QuadVCA as a mixer, and going into my audio interface (MOTU ultralite).
Agawell wrote:
Thu Oct 15, 2020 1:44 pm

depends on the audio interface - but a vca, an audio interface and some adapter cables will probably do the job - but remember that you need vcas for other things - including modulation

whether or not you need attenuation (which is what would be using the vcas for in this case) is totally dependent on the audio interface - I'd get a 2hp trim module or 2 to cover this instead - they are really handy even if you don't actually need them for this, take no power and are inexpensive

you do probably want some sort of mixing in the rack unless you are going to go straight into an external mixer or audio interface with every voice and have everything you need for each voice, don't want stereo, don't want panning, don't want interesting modulation...

...if plugging directly into the audio interface clips, attenuate
if when using the attenuators the sound quality is crap - then try different ways of attenuating (vca, mixer etc)
if still not good enough - start looking towards balanced i/o


As it stands, I have an Intellijel 7U case, and I planned on using the 1U row to handle my I/O, but the modules are all out of stock! Sucks that I can’t take advantage of the outputs the case has now, but I digress.

I’ll definitely look into the 2HP trim unit, seems like it’s a great way to ease up the workload for QuadVCA. Do you have any mixer recommendations? I’ll likely commit to a mixer before something like a trim.

Also, does the audio quality really get that bad when not going with a balanced signal? If so, is getting the balanced i/o something I should prioritize?

Much thanks to everyone taking the time to reply, it is highly appreciated!

User avatar
Agawell
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1175
Joined: Mon May 04, 2015 3:22 am

Re: plz bless me w/ ur wisdom veteran wigglers (build critique)

Post by Agawell » Thu Oct 15, 2020 4:17 pm

goonlord wrote:
Thu Oct 15, 2020 2:43 pm
As it stands, I have an Intellijel 7U case, and I planned on using the 1U row to handle my I/O, but the modules are all out of stock! Sucks that I can’t take advantage of the outputs the case has now, but I digress.
that's one of the reasons I don't like 1u!
I’ll definitely look into the 2HP trim unit, seems like it’s a great way to ease up the workload for QuadVCA. Do you have any mixer recommendations? I’ll likely commit to a mixer before something like a trim.

Also, does the audio quality really get that bad when not going with a balanced signal? If so, is getting the balanced i/o something I should prioritize?

Much thanks to everyone taking the time to reply, it is highly appreciated!
for small mixers (panning, stereo) Happy Nerding seems to be the way to go - Manhattan Analog do a nice mono Moog style one that is supposed to overdrive nicely (DTM) but it is ACCoupled so no cv - AI synthesis do a couple including a small (10hp) matrix mixer (which are very useful for modulation)

use your ears - if it sounds good to you - then does it matter? I've never used balanced cables and have been happy with recordings I've made - sure if someone gave me a set of balanced cables and a super high end audio interface and madly expensive monitors and a fully treated room etc I would probably notice the difference

most of your potential audience will probably listen on a phone, tablet or laptop, none of which produce particularly high quality audio

balanced cables are good for reducing interference, but in most circumstances ie unless you can tell there is interference with unbalanced cables then the benefit is minor - on very long cable runs interference can become a problem

some audio interfaces or mixers may only have balanced inputs - if you have one of these then use balanced outputs and cables
Instagram

Utility modules are the inexpensive, dull polish that makes the expensive, shiny modules actually shine!!!

an oscillator is an oscillator - utilities are possibilities

User avatar
BenA718
Veteran Wiggler
Posts: 639
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2017 11:09 am
Location: NYC

Re: plz bless me w/ ur wisdom veteran wigglers (build critique)

Post by BenA718 » Sat Oct 17, 2020 7:46 am

My setup is similar to yours, I have my Mother-32 and Subharmonicon racked as well. I then converted one of the 60hp cases as a ‘controller sidecar’ with the NerdSeq, which made my life a lot easier! Adding a second voice (VCO and VCA) and feeding that into the audio input on the Mother-32 really brings it to life and it can even be a unison or hard-sync’d line, it adds some additional timbre to the Mother.

For sub mixing, I found that the WORNG Sound Stage/LRMSMSLR combination is really hard to beat! 21 pre-assigned stereo inputs, filter and VCA (if needed) with a LOT of flexibility in fx routing.

I also have a Rosie for headphone monitoring and it can be used as a pass-through for a second fx send and return before going to your sub mixer (ie, different reverb for snare or a particular delay). This can also be used as a dual mono mixer for effects.

One final thought, though you can go straight into fx pedals, I have found that the strymon AA.1 is great for mixing modular and guitar-level equipment, and if you use it as a dual-mono effects loop, you can have two separate effects chains going through it at once.

User avatar
foliephonics
Common Wiggler
Posts: 127
Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2018 10:33 am
Location: France

Re: plz bless me w/ ur wisdom veteran wigglers (build critique)

Post by foliephonics » Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:17 am

I'm wondering about the PNW, as you're clocking from the Mother.
PNW can be great as a modulation source, but maybe you'd be better off finding something more specific for modulation if you're not intent on using PNW as master clock (and there's the question of menu-diving, which is admitedly limited with PNW) ? Many quad LFOs would be great for this, for example, or maybe a combination of other multi-purpose modules ?
(And, in my mind, NLC Triple Sloths just adds so much, modulation-wise, but that's just me and chaos...)

User avatar
goonlord
Learning to Wiggle
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun May 31, 2015 10:45 pm

Re: plz bless me w/ ur wisdom veteran wigglers (build critique)

Post by goonlord » Sat Oct 17, 2020 4:05 pm

BenA718 wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 7:46 am
My setup is similar to yours, I have my Mother-32 and Subharmonicon racked as well. I then converted one of the 60hp cases as a ‘controller sidecar’ with the NerdSeq, which made my life a lot easier! Adding a second voice (VCO and VCA) and feeding that into the audio input on the Mother-32 really brings it to life and it can even be a unison or hard-sync’d line, it adds some additional timbre to the Mother.

For sub mixing, I found that the WORNG Sound Stage/LRMSMSLR combination is really hard to beat! 21 pre-assigned stereo inputs, filter and VCA (if needed) with a LOT of flexibility in fx routing.

I also have a Rosie for headphone monitoring and it can be used as a pass-through for a second fx send and return before going to your sub mixer (ie, different reverb for snare or a particular delay). This can also be used as a dual mono mixer for effects.

One final thought, though you can go straight into fx pedals, I have found that the strymon AA.1 is great for mixing modular and guitar-level equipment, and if you use it as a dual-mono effects loop, you can have two separate effects chains going through it at once.
Super rad! I take it that you don’t use the onboard sequencer on the mother-32 then? I was thinking about adding an Intellijel Scales to my set up, but apparently the keyboard out on the mother is hard synced to the 1v/o input. Having a quantizer to keep me in scale would be rad, but I just don’t know if that would fly with the mother. I am highly considering a sequencer, but I’ll likely decide on that once I master the mother.
foliephonics wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:17 am
I'm wondering about the PNW, as you're clocking from the Mother.
PNW can be great as a modulation source, but maybe you'd be better off finding something more specific for modulation if you're not intent on using PNW as master clock (and there's the question of menu-diving, which is admitedly limited with PNW) ? Many quad LFOs would be great for this, for example, or maybe a combination of other multi-purpose modules ?
(And, in my mind, NLC Triple Sloths just adds so much, modulation-wise, but that's just me and chaos...)
To be honest, I am kind of reconsidering it as well, especially since I might just ditch the doepfer a-118 and get a wogglebug. I know the wogglebug is used as a master clock by some, so I am thinking there might be a little overlap. My main use for the wogglebug would be as a random source, however.

The reason why I am considering PNW is for sync’d modulation, tempo/subdivision locks, etc.

User avatar
BenA718
Veteran Wiggler
Posts: 639
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2017 11:09 am
Location: NYC

Re: plz bless me w/ ur wisdom veteran wigglers (build critique)

Post by BenA718 » Sat Oct 17, 2020 6:36 pm

That's correct, I use the NerdSeq as my sequencer.

You do not need to use a quantizer with the Mother-32 unless you are feeding random voltage (sample and hold, Turing machine, etc) into the v/oct input and want to constrain it to certain keys. If you're unsure of what utilities to get, the Disting is highly recommended. It will save your bacon! :)

Post Reply

Return to “Eurorack Modules”