Cosmotronic Thru Zero Complex Oscillator - Teaser

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Black_Materia
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Re: Cosmotronic Thru Zero Complex Oscillator - Teaser

Post by Black_Materia » Tue Jan 05, 2021 7:01 am

Nice, versatile module A simple clean UI makes for good overview and workflow.
I like the octave switches, something all complex oscillators would benefit from.

name suggestion: Cosmotronic 'Collision' has a nice ring to it.

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Re: Cosmotronic Thru Zero Complex Oscillator - Teaser

Post by R.U.Nuts » Tue Jan 05, 2021 8:35 am

Finally a complex oscillator with octave switches! I'm always puzzle that nobody added octave switches to their CO designs. They make especially sense in a dual VCO dedicated to FM-ing each other.
Now get rid of those mini shaft pots and call it Papillon.

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Re: Cosmotronic Thru Zero Complex Oscillator - Teaser

Post by kybernetik » Tue Jan 05, 2021 11:11 am

Thanks everyone for the great feedback and many wonderful name suggestions!

Here's a list of the names so far;

Sonic Mission (Ferran),
Barycenter (ATW),
Hyperpath (Acidbob),
Chiral Frequency Generator (Buttons are toys),
Cosplex (LunaticSound),
Papillon (Dr. Sketch-n-Etch, R.U.Nuts ),
OSChiral / Chiasticosc (scuto),
CosmPlex (lohacker,MARK27),
Palindrone (hawkfuzz),
Moebius (autopoiesis),
do-O (Funky40),
Collision (Black_Materia),


I understand the hate for the minipots, unfortunately there's always a tradeoff between HP and ergonomics. I'd probably have to add 4 to 6 HP minimum to replace the attenuators with metal pots + knob and I would really like to keep the module low HP.
I think adding something like those Thonk toppers instead would be a good idea. (All other pots are metal shaft + mounted to frontpanel btw)

autopoiesis wrote:
Mon Jan 04, 2021 5:22 pm
lastly, the phase modulation audio sample sounds pretty scratchy. reminds me a bit of the Happy Nerding FM Aid when the sawtooth carrier's gain isn't properly calibrated. since this module's PM implementation has been inspired by the OML SineCore, might it do cleaner PM if you feed it a fully sawtooth-shaped wave (Shape slider at full height, not midway as in the video)?
yes good observation, that's exactly what's happening. Basically the circuit creates a relatively low distortion sinewave from a triangle or a saw. A DC offset can be added in the case of a saw, this gives +-720 degrees of phase displacement, allowing for thru zero phase modulation.
Using a different waveform no longer allows true phase modulation, however the sidebands created by 'glitching' artifacts still create really interesting timbres. That's basically the function of the tri to saw shaper, to explore sine phase modulation as well as these inbetween sonic domains.
- Cosmotronic -

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Re: Cosmotronic Thru Zero Complex Oscillator - Teaser

Post by SavageMessiah » Tue Jan 05, 2021 11:54 am

This looks cool as hell. I think mini pots for attenuators are fine but I would suggest replacing the fine tune with metal shaft if you have the space, I've always found doing fine tuning with mini pots to be kinda annoying.

I didn't think I would be GASing for another complex oscillator but here we are. :omg:

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Funky40
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Re: Cosmotronic Thru Zero Complex Oscillator - Teaser

Post by Funky40 » Tue Jan 05, 2021 12:20 pm

has this VCO anything to do with the SSI2130 VCO IC, or is it totally unrelated ?

judging from the (angled) pictures is it looking as some pots are to close to the VCO pitch adjustment,
and it also looks like they could be moved more towards the sliders.
( not knowing whats going on underneath vs. the circuitry)

we´ve seen modules where deadjustimg pitch while jammming others could happen way to easily.
hope you have had an eye on this (?)
any other forums for "experimental electronic music making" or eurorack to consider ?
beside "lines" which was allready suggested

Dogma
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Re: Cosmotronic Thru Zero Complex Oscillator - Teaser

Post by Dogma » Tue Jan 05, 2021 4:04 pm

Funky40 wrote:
Tue Jan 05, 2021 12:20 pm
has this VCO anything to do with the SSI2130 VCO IC, or is it totally unrelated ?

judging from the (angled) pictures is it looking as some pots are to close to the VCO pitch adjustment,
and it also looks like they could be moved more towards the sliders.
( not knowing whats going on underneath vs. the circuitry)

we´ve seen modules where deadjustimg pitch while jammming others could happen way to easily.
hope you have had an eye on this (?)

Exactly what I was thinking,if this is a 2130 , if so this is pretty much an Insta for me
Waiting on a bresno so me thinks a deadly duo
look up!

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Funky40
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Re: Cosmotronic Thru Zero Complex Oscillator - Teaser

Post by Funky40 » Tue Jan 05, 2021 7:52 pm

Dogma wrote:
Tue Jan 05, 2021 4:04 pm
Exactly what I was thinking,if this is a 2130 , if so this is pretty much an Insta for me
i´ve not heard a SSI2130 yet, and the Demo of this VCO had definitly some nice tones.
i´m very curious.

my personal focus for VCOs is on phase modulation ! but has to have TZFM as a second option as well.
so this one would fit. But i can only add one analog (double) VCO to my setup, .......thats it then. finish !
I want to have a second VCO with PM beside my Generate3.
But since i expect quite alots of SSI2130 designs to come do i not set me under fire ( at least i try).
...and then there´s the schlaeppi to come too.
any other forums for "experimental electronic music making" or eurorack to consider ?
beside "lines" which was allready suggested

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emmaker
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Re: Cosmotronic Thru Zero Complex Oscillator - Teaser

Post by emmaker » Tue Jan 05, 2021 7:59 pm

260ma off both rails, that seems a lot.

Why, digital?

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Re: Cosmotronic Thru Zero Complex Oscillator - Teaser

Post by Funky40 » Tue Jan 05, 2021 8:10 pm

emmaker wrote:
Tue Jan 05, 2021 7:59 pm
Why, digital?
--->
kybernetik wrote:
Mon Jan 04, 2021 11:00 am
It's our take on the complex oscillator, fully analog, two independent VCO's,
any other forums for "experimental electronic music making" or eurorack to consider ?
beside "lines" which was allready suggested

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Rex Coil 7
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Re: Cosmotronic Thru Zero Complex Oscillator - Teaser

Post by Rex Coil 7 » Tue Jan 05, 2021 9:12 pm

Dr. Sketch-n-Etch wrote:
Mon Jan 04, 2021 1:54 pm
Name suggestion: PAPILLON
:tu:



:tu:



:tu:

Steve McQueen  Papillon - 01.jpg

:tu:


:pbear:
5U MODULAR NORMALIZING PROJECT (for your entertainment) viewtopic.php?t=78836&highlight=
.. as of Dec 8th 2020 on a break for a bit .. contact me via bamco60@hotmail.com if needed.
WELCOME TO 2021 .. THE BEATINGS WILL CONTINUE UNTIL MORALE IMPROVES.

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Re: Cosmotronic Thru Zero Complex Oscillator - Teaser

Post by kybernetik » Wed Jan 06, 2021 9:33 am

Funky40 wrote:
Tue Jan 05, 2021 12:20 pm
has this VCO anything to do with the SSI2130 VCO IC, or is it totally unrelated ?

judging from the (angled) pictures is it looking as some pots are to close to the VCO pitch adjustment,
and it also looks like they could be moved more towards the sliders.
( not knowing whats going on underneath vs. the circuitry)

we´ve seen modules where deadjusting pitch while jammming others could happen way to easily.
hope you have had an eye on this (?)
Yeah the core's are SSI2130. It's a kind of funny story actually, I spent quite some time last year designing a thru-zero tri core, and finally when I had a well working version the SSI2130 came out. So I gave it a try and it sounded awesome. Tracking and frequency range were better and part count was a lot smaller, so I bit the bullet and redesigned it around the SSI2130.
I guess there will be quite some more stuff coming out with this IC, but most of the character from this vco comes from the other circuitry, so I think there will be space for everyone.


At the moment there is no pitch lock or something like that, I've been thinking about something like a jumper to let you choose to disable the main tune knobs, and tune with a trimpot instead. Would that work for a performance situation?
Another solution would be a trimpot that let's you tune the module to a note with the Tune Knob all the way counter clock wise. So you'd always be able to easily go back to that root note..

emmaker wrote:
Tue Jan 05, 2021 7:59 pm
260ma off both rails, that seems a lot.
Why, digital?
It's all analog, but even though the module is relatively small, there's a couple modules worth of functionality in there.
Loads of op-amps, roughly a dozen vca's etc



Another design question we've been discussing at Cosmotronic, would it be favourable to have the sliders symmetric (like in the picture) or mirrored?
So symmetric would have the low pass filter on the outsides, so signal flow is expressed from the centre of the module.

Mirrored would instead have the Low Pass Filter as the right most slider for both VCO 1 and VCO 2. So this way both halves have the same layout, reading left to right, which might help with muscle memory?
- Cosmotronic -

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Re: Cosmotronic Thru Zero Complex Oscillator - Teaser

Post by autopoiesis » Wed Jan 06, 2021 9:53 am

kybernetik wrote:
Wed Jan 06, 2021 9:33 am
At the moment there is no pitch lock or something like that, I've been thinking about something like a jumper to let you choose to disable the main tune knobs, and tune with a trimpot instead. Would that work for a performance situation?
Another solution would be a trimpot that let's you tune the module to a note with the Tune Knob all the way counter clock wise. So you'd always be able to easily go back to that root note..
In both of those solutions, this extra trimpot would serve as an additional offset to the coarse tuning knob? So, basically, three coarse tuning knobs per oscillator: the tune knob, the tune trimpot, and the fine tune trimpot?
kybernetik wrote:
Wed Jan 06, 2021 9:33 am
Another design question we've been discussing at Cosmotronic, would it be favourable to have the sliders symmetric (like in the picture) or mirrored?
So symmetric would have the low pass filter on the outsides, so signal flow is expressed from the centre of the module.

Mirrored would instead have the Low Pass Filter as the right most slider for both VCO 1 and VCO 2. So this way both halves have the same layout, reading left to right, which might help with muscle memory?
I like 'mirrored' personally and agree that it would help with muscle memory.

By the way, I'm curious if the FM Index knob turns into an attenuator when you patch CV into either of the FM index jacks, or if it remains an offset.

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Re: Cosmotronic Thru Zero Complex Oscillator - Teaser

Post by kybernetik » Wed Jan 06, 2021 10:00 am

autopoiesis wrote:
Wed Jan 06, 2021 9:53 am

In both of those solutions, this extra trimpot would serve as an additional offset to the coarse tuning knob? So, basically, three coarse tuning knobs per oscillator: the tune knob, the tune trimpot, and the fine tune trimpot?

By the way, I'm curious if the FM Index knob turns into an attenuator when you patch CV into either of the FM index jacks, or if it remains an offset.
Yes it would add another tune offset, it would be a small trimpot on the side of the module, not accesible on the frontpanel.
Image


The FM index is an offset knob, it does have a big negative offset too, so you can use that to kind of attenuate the inputs.
- Cosmotronic -

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Re: Cosmotronic Thru Zero Complex Oscillator - Teaser

Post by closedLoop » Wed Jan 06, 2021 11:06 am

kybernetik wrote:
Wed Jan 06, 2021 9:33 am

Another design question we've been discussing at Cosmotronic, would it be favourable to have the sliders symmetric (like in the picture) or mirrored?
So symmetric would have the low pass filter on the outsides, so signal flow is expressed from the centre of the module.

Mirrored would instead have the Low Pass Filter as the right most slider for both VCO 1 and VCO 2. So this way both halves have the same layout, reading left to right, which might help with muscle memory?
Mirrored makes a lot more sense to my brain. It would make the modules seem visually intertwined in the way that they are also sonically intertwined.

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chai baba
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Re: Cosmotronic Thru Zero Complex Oscillator - Teaser

Post by chai baba » Wed Jan 06, 2021 11:47 am

What a loveley module! The only thing i would consider to change are the sliders. For me it is always much easier and feels better using proper pots instead of sliders when i like to do very fine adjustments. The only advantages i can see related to the sliders are performative aspects, when you want so set the value very fast to zero with it. Than a slider is superior to a knob. And the look of the module is much nicer with sliders. What are your thoughts behind the decision ? All the best ;)

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Re: Cosmotronic Thru Zero Complex Oscillator - Teaser

Post by Kent » Wed Jan 06, 2021 11:59 am

Name: DualSagan

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Re: Cosmotronic Thru Zero Complex Oscillator - Teaser

Post by davidjames » Wed Jan 06, 2021 4:26 pm

I vote for symmetric, I'd prefer working from the center out as it would make the module feel like a single system. Also, IMO "mirrored" means the same thing, as an object reflected in a mirror would appear flipped, so to me that also means "center out". I realize this is just semantics, the point you're making is clear.

I'd welcome a trimmer to set the root note at full CCW. The SSF ZPO has a nice solution with the pitch lock and trimmer on the front but I assume that might not be an option here.

Question...what are the ranges for the coarse and fine controls? With the octave switches, I assume the coarse control doesn't need a huge range?

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Re: Cosmotronic Thru Zero Complex Oscillator - Teaser

Post by dooj88 » Wed Jan 06, 2021 5:59 pm

digging this. been looking for a good analog complex oscillator with lots of tone shaping options. will follow along closely!

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Re: Cosmotronic Thru Zero Complex Oscillator - Teaser

Post by Funky40 » Wed Jan 06, 2021 6:23 pm

kybernetik wrote:
Wed Jan 06, 2021 9:33 am
Yeah the core's are SSI2130. It's a kind of funny story actually, I spent quite some time last year designing a thru-zero tri core, and finally when I had a well working version the SSI2130 came out. So I gave it a try and it sounded awesome. Tracking and frequency range were better and part count was a lot smaller, so I bit the bullet and redesigned it around the SSI2130.
I guess there will be quite some more stuff coming out with this IC, but most of the character from this vco comes from the other circuitry, so I think there will be space for everyone.
interesting story, ...which speaks for you.
interesting read in the whole.
Yeah, i immediately recognised that there is something special with that sound.

vs. mirrored, yeah, i would understand the term also the other way around........
i also MUCH prefer what you called .....ahh wait, i mean the one better for muscle memory, both sides same
( like: thinking from left to right, ...... on both sides)


vs. the pitch pots: the pictures are not very clear to grasp the spacing.
for me its good enough if you can turn, well "jamm" with knobs , without big danger to de-adjust the pitch unwantedly !
locking the pitch knobs out is for example not a solution i´d like to see, at least not as a workaround for to dense spacing.
As an option ? yes. But the sapcing would have to be right still (ideally)
The force a pot needs to be turned playes here a role too ofcourse !

i btw. like these trimmpots in some spots. just to say. these were a godsend to eurorack.

i didn´t understood the part vs. "the index pot vs. input attenuation normalising"
i personally made in the past a big turn around modules which DO HAVE such a normalisation.
My opinion, make a pot a offset, but not a attenuator if there^s no place for a dedicated attenuator for the in-CV,
cause that sort of normalisation makes further patching way more complicated, since you now would need to take a modul that is not only a attenuator, but you also need the offset from external too.
today, i have enough happy nerding 3xMIAs in my rack, ..........nevertheless. (i still hate modules with such design)
There is imho a point the manufacturers miss when they do this sort of normalisation


Thanks for caring !
any other forums for "experimental electronic music making" or eurorack to consider ?
beside "lines" which was allready suggested

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Re: Cosmotronic Thru Zero Complex Oscillator - Teaser

Post by autopoiesis » Wed Jan 06, 2021 6:58 pm

Funky40 wrote:
Wed Jan 06, 2021 6:23 pm
i didn´t understood the part vs. "the index pot vs. input attenuation normalising"
i personally made in the past a big turn around modules which DO HAVE such a normalisation.
My opinion, make a pot a offset, but not a attenuator if there^s no place for a dedicated attenuator for the in-CV,
cause that sort of normalisation makes further patching way more complicated, since you now would need to take a modul that is not only a attenuator, but you also need the offset from external too.
Cosmo mentioned that the index pot always works as an offset, regardless of whether CV is patched into the index jacks. I also prefer it this way.

What might have confused you is that the index pot is actually bipolar - it apparently adds a negative offset when turned left of noon, so what Cosmo was saying is that you can dampen the CV by turning the knob counterclockwise. Not the same as attenuation (lower voltages of your CV will get clamped) but would work in a pinch and I think it's always best when pots retain their functions across patching scenarios.

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Re: Cosmotronic Thru Zero Complex Oscillator - Teaser

Post by bodo » Wed Jan 06, 2021 7:14 pm

Name suggestion: 'Moeilijk huwelijk' :)

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Re: Cosmotronic Thru Zero Complex Oscillator - Teaser

Post by Funky40 » Wed Jan 06, 2021 7:15 pm

autopoiesis wrote:
Wed Jan 06, 2021 6:58 pm
Cosmo mentioned that the index pot always works as an offset, regardless of whether CV is patched into the index jacks. I also prefer it this way.

What might have confused you is that the index pot is actually bipolar - it apparently adds a negative offset when turned left of noon, so what Cosmo was saying is that you can dampen the CV by turning the knob counterclockwise.
sounds Good. Thanks for the clarification
autopoiesis wrote:
Wed Jan 06, 2021 6:58 pm
I think it's always best when pots retain their functions across patching scenarios.
totally !
any other forums for "experimental electronic music making" or eurorack to consider ?
beside "lines" which was allready suggested

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Re: Cosmotronic Thru Zero Complex Oscillator - Teaser

Post by pieter » Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:34 am

bodo wrote:
Wed Jan 06, 2021 7:14 pm
Name suggestion: 'Moeilijk huwelijk' :)
:hihi:

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Re: Cosmotronic Thru Zero Complex Oscillator - Teaser

Post by Dogma » Thu Jan 07, 2021 2:36 pm

Phases is my name - keep it simple

I’m so into this - any idea on eta? Roughish price?
look up!

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Re: Cosmotronic Thru Zero Complex Oscillator - Teaser

Post by pekbro » Thu Jan 07, 2021 6:06 pm

Following!

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