Mutable Instruments Beads (Clouds 2)

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pieter
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Re: Mutable Instruments Beads (Clouds 2)

Post by pieter » Sun Feb 21, 2021 4:38 pm

I have a question about the automatic input gain detection: does it monitor the input continuously?

I ask, because I had a patch today where I kept having to turn the input to Beads down, and it kept getting too loud for the mix. I did not unplug the audio input cables.

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Re: Mutable Instruments Beads (Clouds 2)

Post by tdallas » Sun Feb 21, 2021 4:47 pm

pieter wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 4:38 pm
I have a question about the automatic input gain detection: does it monitor the input continuously?

I ask, because I had a patch today where I kept having to turn the input to Beads down, and it kept getting too loud for the mix. I did not unplug the audio input cables.
Edit: might this be your problem -> https://forum.mutable-instruments.net/t/beads/18091/110

Due to the manual the automatic measurement does only last for 5 seconds after plug in the cables and there seems to be a limiter for drastic changes:
4CDD3383-18A0-4C79-A987-216BC44E6CE9.jpeg
Last edited by tdallas on Sun Feb 21, 2021 4:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Mutable Instruments Beads (Clouds 2)

Post by gran_syth » Sun Feb 21, 2021 4:54 pm

sacheie wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 4:26 pm
Help!

I am in love with this module but I'm experiencing a major signal-to-noise degradation with it. When I connect my laptop to the 4ms Listen IO, I have to turn the volume way up to hear the hiss in the audio. But when I send that audio into Beads (or connect the Y cable directly to Beads), the volume falls a lot - but the hiss in the signal doesn't fall, so when I add gain further in the chain to compensate, the hiss becomes terribly strong.

Is anyone else noticing this?? Can it be solved? I can work around the problem by amplifying the audio before going into Beads, and manually lowering Beads' gain. But I think this may be inducing crackling and clipping.
Beads expects modular level (as the 4MS Listen) your laptop is line level.

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Re: Mutable Instruments Beads (Clouds 2)

Post by digable-me » Sun Feb 21, 2021 4:57 pm

gran_syth wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 4:54 pm
sacheie wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 4:26 pm
Help!

I am in love with this module but I'm experiencing a major signal-to-noise degradation with it. When I connect my laptop to the 4ms Listen IO, I have to turn the volume way up to hear the hiss in the audio. But when I send that audio into Beads (or connect the Y cable directly to Beads), the volume falls a lot - but the hiss in the signal doesn't fall, so when I add gain further in the chain to compensate, the hiss becomes terribly strong.

Is anyone else noticing this?? Can it be solved? I can work around the problem by amplifying the audio before going into Beads, and manually lowering Beads' gain. But I think this may be inducing crackling and clipping.
Beads expects modular level (as the 4MS Listen) your laptop is line level.
This is incorrect. Beads can handle both. This sounds like a consequence of the automatic gain detection. If you have cables plugged into beads but no sound coming in, it will amplify until you hear the noise floor. If you send audio into beads then your SNR ratio should come out the same as it went in, more or less.
Last edited by digable-me on Sun Feb 21, 2021 5:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Mutable Instruments Beads (Clouds 2)

Post by pieter » Sun Feb 21, 2021 5:02 pm

tdallas wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 4:47 pm
pieter wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 4:38 pm
I have a question about the automatic input gain detection: does it monitor the input continuously?

I ask, because I had a patch today where I kept having to turn the input to Beads down, and it kept getting too loud for the mix. I did not unplug the audio input cables.
Edit: might this be your problem -> https://forum.mutable-instruments.net/t/beads/18091/110

Due to the manual the automatic measurement does only last for 5 seconds after plug in the cables and there seems to be a limiter for drastic changes:

4CDD3383-18A0-4C79-A987-216BC44E6CE9.jpeg
Ah, I forgot about the 1 second hold-the-button for manual control. Thanks. From your edited link it seems that Beads' gain adjustment is indeed listening for more than the first 5 seconds after plug-in. Good to know!

Edit: I think I would rather have the manual control as the default (after power on). Is that possible?

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Re: Mutable Instruments Beads (Clouds 2)

Post by tdallas » Sun Feb 21, 2021 5:17 pm

pieter wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 5:02 pm
[...]
Edit: I think I would rather have the manual control as the default (after power on). Is that possible?
I was about to add this at this very moment (including the question above the answer) -> https://forum.mutable-instruments.net/ ... /18091/176
;)

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Re: Mutable Instruments Beads (Clouds 2)

Post by sacheie » Sun Feb 21, 2021 5:22 pm

digable-me wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 4:57 pm
This is incorrect. Beads can handle both. This sounds like a consequence of the automatic gain detection. If you have cables plugged into beads but no sound coming in, it will amplify until you hear the noise floor. If you send audio into beads then your SNR ratio should come out the same as it went in, more or less.
I would have thought so, but I tried restarting the auto gain while the audio plays - audio rises to a good level, but hiss rises too. Manually setting Beads' gain doesn't work either.

What does work is heavily raising the 4ms IO volume before going into Beads. It's as if the amplification in Beads just isn't as clean as the 4ms IO. I'm puzzled.

Aside from this, Beads just seems finicky? A lot of crackling and popping as I adjust its controls. On Reddit modular, someone else noticed this too.

Don't get me wrong, I love it. Just puzzled.

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Re: Mutable Instruments Beads (Clouds 2)

Post by tdallas » Sun Feb 21, 2021 5:34 pm

sacheie wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 5:22 pm
[...]
I would have thought so, but I tried restarting the auto gain while the audio plays - audio rises to a good level, but hiss rises too. Manually setting Beads' gain doesn't work either.

What does work is heavily raising the 4ms IO volume before going into Beads. It's as if the amplification in Beads just isn't as clean as the 4ms IO. I'm puzzled.

Aside from this, Beads just seems finicky? A lot of crackling and popping as I adjust its controls. On Reddit modular, someone else noticed this too.

Don't get me wrong, I love it. Just puzzled.
From what I have read the inputs should be very clean (the last sentence here) -> https://forum.mutable-instruments.net/t/beads/18091/166

And there is also a new firmware on its way for different scenarios so I guess we all should wait a little bit for the next update ;-) -> https://forum.mutable-instruments.net/t/beads/18091/187 / https://forum.mutable-instruments.net/t ... soon/18121
Last edited by tdallas on Sun Feb 21, 2021 6:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Mutable Instruments Beads (Clouds 2)

Post by hawkfuzz » Sun Feb 21, 2021 5:39 pm

Crackling and popping are usually signs of gain staging issues in my experience
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Re: Mutable Instruments Beads (Clouds 2)

Post by tdallas » Sun Feb 21, 2021 5:48 pm

hawkfuzz wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 5:39 pm
Crackling and popping are usually signs of gain staging issues in my experience
I guess they are talking about the known cracklings in the highest/cleanest mode and maybe the discontinuity in the waveform which is discussed here -> https://forum.mutable-instruments.net/t/beads/18091/187

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Re: Mutable Instruments Beads (Clouds 2)

Post by hawkfuzz » Sun Feb 21, 2021 5:53 pm

Oh boy. Will this thread go the Mimeophon route?

Tomorrow I shall be united with my module and I’m excited.
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Re: Mutable Instruments Beads (Clouds 2)

Post by Kattefjaes » Sun Feb 21, 2021 6:02 pm

sacheie wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 5:22 pm
I would have thought so, but I tried restarting the auto gain while the audio plays - audio rises to a good level, but hiss rises too. Manually setting Beads' gain doesn't work either.
This really sounds like a poor gainstaging issue, probably a low-even-for-line-level thing.

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Re: Mutable Instruments Beads (Clouds 2)

Post by tdallas » Sun Feb 21, 2021 6:03 pm

hawkfuzz wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 5:53 pm
Oh boy. Will this thread go the Mimeophon route?

Tomorrow I shall be united with my module and I’m excited.
I do not own a Mimeophon but I doubt that we will ever see a “the noise floor of the universe”(*) video from Mutable Instruments ;-) I have complete trust in the magic of Émilie. People just have to wait a bit for upcoming updates and Beads is already a wonderful module!

*no hate against MN! I love the Morphagene for example.

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Re: Mutable Instruments Beads (Clouds 2)

Post by Back Down the Path » Sun Feb 21, 2021 6:08 pm

Kattefjaes wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 6:02 pm
sacheie wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 5:22 pm
I would have thought so, but I tried restarting the auto gain while the audio plays - audio rises to a good level, but hiss rises too. Manually setting Beads' gain doesn't work either.
This really sounds like a poor gainstaging issue, probably a low-even-for-line-level thing.
My Beads noob mistake on day one was I thought there was a gain staging issue and checked all over my system, but eventually I realized I was in the scorched tape mode. Part of the character of the sound, and not a bug. I almost came here to post about it before I realized. If you’re getting a hiss in one of the top 2 modes, that’s probably a gain staging issue. If you’re in the bottom two (particularly the last red one!), it’s working as intended.

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Re: Mutable Instruments Beads (Clouds 2)

Post by sacheie » Sun Feb 21, 2021 6:15 pm

Back Down the Path wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 6:08 pm
My Beads noob mistake on day one was I thought there was a gain staging issue and checked all over my system, but eventually I realized I was in the scorched tape mode. Part of the character of the sound, and not a bug. I almost came here to post about it before I realized. If you’re getting a hiss in one of the top 2 modes, that’s probably a gain staging issue. If you’re in the bottom two (particularly the last red one!), it’s working as intended.
I'm hearing the issue in the top quality mode.

I agree the issue could be gain staging - the hiss isn't a problem if I amp the signal (significantly) before going into Beads. I'm just mystified why my Beads won't do that amping cleanly itself.

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Re: Mutable Instruments Beads (Clouds 2)

Post by sacheie » Sun Feb 21, 2021 6:18 pm

sacheie wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 6:15 pm
Back Down the Path wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 6:08 pm
My Beads noob mistake on day one was I thought there was a gain staging issue and checked all over my system, but eventually I realized I was in the scorched tape mode. Part of the character of the sound, and not a bug. I almost came here to post about it before I realized. If you’re getting a hiss in one of the top 2 modes, that’s probably a gain staging issue. If you’re in the bottom two (particularly the last red one!), it’s working as intended.
I'm hearing the issue in the top quality mode.

I agree the issue could be gain staging - the hiss isn't a problem if I amp the signal (significantly) before going into Beads. I'm just mystified why my Beads won't do that amping cleanly itself.

Is it possible this could happen from power supply issues? My rack spontaneously rebooted yesterday, which never happened before. I'm running a lot of digital modules, and the Roland mixer, Jellysquaher.. might be over consuming power. Would that cause SNR problems?

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Re: Mutable Instruments Beads (Clouds 2)

Post by Hastur » Sun Feb 21, 2021 6:30 pm

sacheie wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 6:18 pm

Is it possible this could happen from power supply issues? My rack spontaneously rebooted yesterday, which never happened before. I'm running a lot of digital modules, and the Roland mixer, Jellysquaher.. might be over consuming power. Would that cause SNR problems?
Yeah, that could be the problem. Try to create your rack on modulargrid, it should tell you the total power consumption, and compare that total to your power supply specs. One guideline is to stay under 70/80% of your power supply specs.

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Re: Mutable Instruments Beads (Clouds 2)

Post by pichenettes » Mon Feb 22, 2021 1:40 am

I'm just mystified why my Beads won't do that amping cleanly itself.
Probably because your signal is so weak that amplifying it in the digital domain requires a gain so high that it also brings the noise from the ADC.

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Re: Mutable Instruments Beads (Clouds 2)

Post by zerodivide » Mon Feb 22, 2021 1:52 am

Curious if Émilie (Pichenettes) has time or desire to ever write music. Would be fascinating to hear what the founder of Mutable Instruments would make with their own imagination using these products

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Re: Mutable Instruments Beads (Clouds 2)

Post by donrock » Mon Feb 22, 2021 2:36 am

hawkfuzz wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 5:53 pm
Oh boy. Will this thread go the Mimeophon route?.
Honestly, I think people from Make Noise could learn a lot from the way Emilie handles these similar issues. Even if the issues aren’t resolved yet, there is acknowledgement of them and reassurance they will be fixed, instead of what happened (is happening?) with Mimeophon. I have MM, and I love it for the most part, but there’s sometimes clicking happening that I don’t have any faith will ever be resolved. I have no doubt that Beads’ issues will be resolved very shortly.

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Re: Mutable Instruments Beads (Clouds 2)

Post by 1n » Mon Feb 22, 2021 4:12 am

donrock wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 2:36 am
hawkfuzz wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 5:53 pm
Oh boy. Will this thread go the Mimeophon route?.
Honestly, I think people from Make Noise could learn a lot from the way Emilie handles these similar issues. Even if the issues aren’t resolved yet, there is acknowledgement of them and reassurance they will be fixed, instead of what happened (is happening?) with Mimeophon. I have MM, and I love it for the most part, but there’s sometimes clicking happening that I don’t have any faith will ever be resolved. I have no doubt that Beads’ issues will be resolved very shortly.
Slightly off topic: don't want to derail this thread further, but it's worth noting that Mimeophon is a Make Noise / Soundhack product, so perhaps there's some organisational complexity that adds to the time taken to identify and resolve issues. There is a definite contrast with how users are able to communicate publicly with Mutable Instruments. Having said that, the one time I contacted MN about Mimeophon colour response and decay, Walker mailed me back almost immediately and explained a couple of technical and design points, and in a way I could understand, which made sense and helped me get the best out of the Mimeophon, which I use in almost every patch one way or another.

Back on topic: beyond her work producing this incredible instrument, Émilie Gillet invests a lot of time monitoring and responding to general and specific comments on Beads and other modules - on the MI forum and here, and maybe in other places, too - noting and fixing what can be fixed.

Now to continue experimenting with Beads. Today I'm finding out how it might work as an audio mastering module...

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Re: Mutable Instruments Beads (Clouds 2)

Post by pelang » Mon Feb 22, 2021 4:40 am

anyone can test if this bug is just on my module ? Wenn applying trigger out on the right output, I do have the trigger signal as well on the left output (and the audio signal)

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Re: Mutable Instruments Beads (Clouds 2)

Post by Robrecht » Mon Feb 22, 2021 4:48 am

pelang wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 4:40 am
anyone can test if this bug is just on my module ? Wenn applying trigger out on the right output, I do have the trigger signal as well on the left output (and the audio signal)
If the right output is unpatched, its signal is mixed in with the left output (for mono operation). So if you've activated the trigger on the right output, but aren't using it, you should still plug in a dummy cable.

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Re: Mutable Instruments Beads (Clouds 2)

Post by pichenettes » Mon Feb 22, 2021 4:51 am

anyone can test if this bug is just on my module ?
This is not a bug. It seems that you are monitoring the Left output without anything plugged into the Right output.

From the manual:

If the R output is left unpatched, both L and R signals are summed together and sent to the L output.

And a little later:

Hold the button [M] and press the SEED button [C] to enable (or disable) the generation of a grain trigger signal on the R output. A patch cable will have to be inserted in the R output for this to work without affecting the L output!

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Re: Mutable Instruments Beads (Clouds 2)

Post by pelang » Mon Feb 22, 2021 4:52 am

Robrecht wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 4:48 am
pelang wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 4:40 am
anyone can test if this bug is just on my module ? Wenn applying trigger out on the right output, I do have the trigger signal as well on the left output (and the audio signal)
If the right output is unpatched, its signal is mixed in with the left output (for mono operation). So if you've activated the trigger on the right output, but aren't using it, you should still plug in a dummy cable.
Ah, Thanks! That was the case. I should read the manual more carefully.

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