Yet Another Newbie - Feedback on Controversial Rack Please

[11235813]

Too Long, Didn't Read:

Newbie. Please give feedback for generative ambient on the case shown below.
p.s. I already know the pros and cons of 2hp.

Wall of Text:

Hi Everyone!

FIRST - THANK YOU AND THANK MW FORUMS FOR BEING SUCH A GREAT RESOURCE!

Yet Another Newbie Post asking for feedback on a first rack - specifically with capabilities for generative ambient. Please hear me out before you choke...

I have a very technical background and so far seem to understand most of the modular concepts and tutorials. I've been studying modular now for months, probably 200-300 hours of research. I have another 20 hours of VCV rack, and a few more hours on iPad apps. Jumping in with both feet!

My life is VERY limited in space, there is no way that I can have a 9U rack @ 104HP just hanging around. My job (mechanical design engineer) often includes packing LOTS of electronics into Pelican cases, so that comes naturally to me. I intend to build the rack shown, 5U into a Pelican 1450 case. Powered by a Trogotronic 10amp system (unless people have other suggestions that are in stock!) I've already done preliminary CAD in Solidworks and everything fits, along with a 15 watt amplifier and speaker!

Goal is simple generative ambient. I envision myself actively patching for 2-3 hours, then listening for 2-3 hours per day, maybe for 1 full week. Then repeat. 100% certain that I'll **never** perform live in front of anyone. The FSRs are just for a friend who might use my case sometimes. Might travel (camping) with the case, so the Pelican will be useful. Its for my personal enjoyment only, I'll never be a musician.

You'll note a strong left-to-right workflow, although I'm 100% sure that I'll patch "upstream" all the time.

PROBLEM? I have ZERO musical training. I've started some music theory tutorials as part of this. However, I did take guitar for 3 years as a young child and am GREAT at playing the didgeridoo! Also terrible tinnitus, diagnosed autistic, and somewhat tone deaf. Yikes.

VCAs - One of my best research topics was HOW MANY VCAs to buy (I know, I know... more!) There is a great MW thread about this, and the best "rule of thumb" from that thread was 1 VCA per 1U of modules @ 84 hp. So, in a 3U @ 84 system, get 3 VCAs, etc. ANOTHER calculation was 2 VCAs per voice that you usually patch. So, if you usually patch 2 voices, get 4 VCAs. There was quite a bit of variance in the responses however. I have 6 VCAs in 5U with 6 voices, but I don't think I'll use all six voices simultaneously.

REGARDING 2HP - I know already, mentally, but I've never PHYSICALLY used such a rack... Of course there are many "cons" to densely packed 2hp modules. These modules sometimes cannot be placed next to each other due to power connections interfering. It is often very difficult to reach the knobs while patching. I'm not worried about it... there are several YouTube videos of people playing solidly packed 2hp systems, and they seem to be fine, but tight. Modules are placed with some spacer blanks, I'll get narrow patch cables, and if I really want to "perform" I'll just patch a 2hp knob to one of the Quadratt sources and use the bigger knob. Unless dozens of you friendly folk appear with horror stories that this case physically will never be patchable, I'll probably go down this path. The giant benefit of these modules is their SIMPLICITY and IMMEDIACY. Just like puzzle pieces - you can tell by the shape what they do. No menus. No manuals. Limited features (i.e. no extra attenuation knobs on voice modules, etc.) but I really like that! When I see posts about people who have very good but complicated modules (i.e. Maths) and they state that they're "still learning this module after 2 months", that just doesn't sound fun to me. Also, multi-function modules don't appeal because it seems like you're always using one feature, and then you can't use the other features.

REGARDING BLOOM - It seems like a great sequencer. I know the complaints here also: The scale transpose function doesn't actually transpose into a new key, but rather just shifts the key up a note, also the "per note" slew and ratchet programming stops the sequencer from running, which would be a deal breaker in a live performance, but that won't affect me. Yes, it has "menus" (well, at least key presses to remember), but I've already got them memorized.

Breakdown of all module functionality below:

VOICES
Snare
Hat
Pluck
Bell
2x VCO -Tri, Saw, Pulse, NO Sine
MMF Filter - Multi Use Module - Filter can self-resonate
LFO's - Multi Use Module - LFOs go to 152Hz

MODULATORS
3x LFO - Sin, Tri, Sq + more. 30 sec - 152Hz audio range
6 VCA - 2x CV only. 4x w. knobs & CV. Rule = 1 VCA per U at 84HP
3x Quants - 2hp Tune, inside 2hp ARP, inside Bloom
ADSR - CV & knobs

TIMING
LFO as Clock - Gate 30 Sec - 152Hz
Divider - Gate Out Mult & Divide 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 16 Dual output
Euclid - V/O Out Max 16 steps. Trigger, Reset, Length & Steps via CV
Arpeggio - V/O Out Will also output RND voltages in the preset scale.
Bloom - V/O Out Seq 2 channel, 32 steps per channel + mutating.

FX
Delay - mono
Reverb - stereo

FILTERS
Envelope Gen - 2 Stage. Attenuator in output. Attack & Delay via CV or knob
Multi Mode Filter - HP, LP, BP. Will self oscillate
2x LPG - CV on gate opening only. No other parameters, vactrol.

UTILITY
3X Mults - Buffered 4 Channel each
Mixer - 4 channel 2hp Mix - no CV
2X Mixer, Attenuverter - Mixer, Attenuverter, AND voltage source - 4 channel each
Oscilloscope - 2 channel, including note recognition and tuning capability.
2X Tap Input - CV and Gate touch and velocity
Headphones Output - with volume knob

https://www.modulargrid.net/e/racks/view/1468000

[Sookilala]

Hey and welcome

My 2c looking at your rack... this is my opinion

I think people get to engrossed on specs and what a system can potentially do and end up with systems that are difficult to actually "play" and interact with. I find the 2hp modules are good to fill spaces but I cant imagine interacting with even a small system filled with them

but thats me, maybe if you just want to setup a system, patch it and then let it go so to speak it maybe fine for you

I also feel there is a danger in planing a system completely and then just putting it together outright, you never really get to the bottom of what modules can do I think. you end up just patching it the same way every time and never really exploring modules. It get said a lot here, but I think its really good advice "buy a few modules, really explore them, then add another, explore, add another" you will find your plan for your rack will probably deviate drastically from your initially plans and you discover ways of interacting with you modules you may never have otherwise considered.

I like you idea to be menu-less, thats a concept that really resonates with me too

I have about 1000 hp of euro now but the thing I use the most is self contained serge/random source 3u system. its the most fun, its limited in so many ways, but forces my to patch creatively to overcome boundaries the panels are large, and well layed out and excellent to interact with

Thats just my thoughts when I look at the rack, building a system is a really personal thing, whatsright for me may not be right for you

Also I get that you you know the cons of the 2hp thing, these were just my thoughts looking at it

All that said... For a small system your plan looks really powerful and im certain it would be alot of fun

[robotfunk]

Hope you're good with tweezers.
I quite like the functional density, and the fact that you have a ton of modulation utilities in there, but I couldn't even stand two 2hp modules next to each other. If you really want to go down this path, try to at least stagger the knobs vertically so you don't have two pots next to each other.

While it looks cool as hell, and can certainly be useful, an oscilloscope in such a small setup seems exorbitant. Remember you can use something like this externally. To be quite honest, the 1U rows seem the most space consuming here. Is there a peli case that is slightly higher so you can have one more 3U row, and ditch the 1U rows altogether?

[Dragonaut]

Hope you're good with tweezers.

Yeah. Looks like a nightmare. All the wires of eurorack already drive me nuts. Add those mini pots to the equation and I’m in wiggler hell.

[11235813]

I also feel there is a danger in planing a system completely and then just putting it together outright, you never really get to the bottom of what modules can do I think. you end up just patching it the same way every time and never really exploring modules.

Sookilala - Thank you for taking the time to answer! This portion of your response particularly affected me. I'll ponder your opinion all week I'm sure. :-)

[Kawouddd]

PROBLEM? I have ZERO musical training. I've started some music theory tutorials as part of this. However, I did take guitar for 3 years as a young child and am GREAT at playing the didgeridoo! Also terrible tinnitus, diagnosed autistic, and somewhat tone deaf. Yikes.

Oh, well the tone deaf autistic with no musical training is fully me my first case was also batshit unconventional, no offence intended, and provided great learning opportunities.

Best thing I’ve done is learn actual keys alongside synth to develop the musical theory side. YMMV!

I do think there’s a risk that mainstream advice may also not be perfectly suited to people who are not neurotypical (or musical). No actual advice. I wouldn’t want it, but then again no one else wanted my starting rack Good luck!

[Granny]

if you want to save space, get an oscilloscope outside of the rack. you wont need it all the time

[bronzebygold]

Hey, welcome to the forum. I appreciate the attempt to try something new. But I don't really get the point. The way I see it, basically in order to make your 2hp module playable you're adding a 2hp blank panel........? Why not just get a 4hp module instead?

The reason menu diving is bad presumably is that it makes your synth less playable right? Well, it turns out the other thing that makes a synth less playable is a ton of tightly packed 2hp modules. I would find this absolutely miserable to actually play.

This is also needlessly inaccessible. For example, Batumi (which is VERY playable) has 12 LFOs in 10hp. Your 2hp LFO modules will only give you 6 LFOs in 12hp! So you're actually giving up playability in exchange for half the LFOs?? It doesn't even make sense from the perspective of maximum density.

[studio460]

Wow! That was too long to read! (Didn't read—stopped at "generative.") You really like 2hp! (Kind of diggin' it!) Anyway, welcome!

[Kawouddd]

Hey, welcome to the forum. I appreciate the attempt to try something new. But I don't really get the point. The way I see it, basically in order to make your 2hp module playable you're adding a 2hp blank panel........? Why not just get a 4hp module instead?

The reason menu diving is bad presumably is that it makes your synth less playable right? Well, it turns out the other thing that makes a synth less playable is a ton of tightly packed 2hp modules. I would find this absolutely miserable to actually play.

This is also needlessly inaccessible. For example, Batumi (which is VERY playable) has 12 LFOs in 10hp. Your 2hp LFO modules will only give you 6 LFOs in 12hp! So you're actually giving up playability in exchange for half the LFOs?? It doesn't even make sense from the perspective of maximum density.

I won’t speak for the op, because obviously I can’t, but I’ll speak for myself! When I got into eurorack, familiarity and rules really helped in beginning to approach an inherently disordered / chaotic system. For me, Erica was my founding brand. Erica, black modules. When I came to muffs, I saw people recommending unmanageably chaotic bundles of chaotic and disorderly modules covering multiple chaotic functions.

Familiar brand, familiar colours, structure, shape, routine all helped break down that unfamiliarity and make more approachable.

Likewise, going for a full system helped me at the outset - eased into chaos. (I knew it would work, even if I had no clue how). And things like usability / pragmátics were less important than some of those other chaos-removers.

Idk, this is part of why I think mainstream advice - certainly for me - isn’t always suited to people who don’t think or act in mainstream ways. “Get one module and learn it backwards” may not work so well if you’re highly compulsive (hello), or lacking in creativity and thrive in structured ignorance where you know there ARE rules, it’s just about puzzling them out.

My two penn’orth, anyhows.

Yeah. I now think you could probably get better functionality in other ways, op. But, yeah, I don’t think functionality is always the point. And I wouldn’t have stuck with modular if I hadn’t gotten the Frankly dysfunctional system I began my “modular journey” with. And u do like where I am, having stuck with it.

Good luck!!!

[Phitar]

I can't imagine trying to do any wiggling with something like that with a moderately complex patch in place. Generative would be a good choice of music for it for sure as you would have a hard time getting in there to make changes. To each his own. Go forth and prosper!

[starthief]

Have you thought about power? Few cases of that size will provide enough current or headers. The bulk of ribbon cables you'll need for all those 2hp modules so close together is going to be significant and may restrict airflow too.

[Del]

Let me echo the only reasonable answer here: give a thought to ergonomics and the use-pleasure of your system. It looks like you've crammed a lot of stuff in there but I bet my shirt you quickly tire of using it. For myself, I realized that I was rarely using the three 2hp modules I had in my rack and I'm certain the difficulty of using them comfortably had a lot to do with it. When you get patch cords plugged in, you'll honestly not be able to get your fingers in there to turn the knobs. It'll be that bad.

Besides, it's better not to make decisions based on your current rack size. You'll probably soon be upgrading your rack and giving yourself more space, and then you'll want to swap out all these 2hps for bigger, better-feeling modules.

And one final point that bears repeating — sometimes less is more. You can do a lot with a lot fewer modules and in my experience there is even a pleasure in doing a lot with a little. I think this is why you often see those "three module challenge" videos. I'd get an oscillator, a cool filter, a good function generator, and a vca and self-patch it to oblivion.

[EATyourGUITAR]

It will take about 5 minutes of trying to use the system before you are asking if you can return it. Better mention to the shop owner that you might return everything. See what they say.

[stepvhen]

. No menus. No manuals. Limited features (i.e. no extra attenuation knobs on voice modules, etc.) but I really like that! When I see posts about people who have very good but complicated modules (i.e. Maths) and they state that they're "still learning this module after 2 months", that just doesn't sound fun to me.

Not trying to yuck your yum, but I'd suggest reconsidering that position. Maths (and any similar module) isn't that complicated, its a dual slew generator at bottom. Theres just a lot of situations where the musician thinks "Man I wish I could do X" and it turns out Maths can do that. This could happen with any module of sufficient expressive power (I just learned Marbles could do audio rate sounds with v/o on the input, and I've had it for almost a year!).

I'd also suggest against all 2hp modules. They use smaller pots with these tiny plastic shafts and it just makes me nervous. Of all things in my rack, I expect that to fail first (particularly on my filter).

Also, Hi and welcome!

[starthief]

Here's a photo I took a couple years ago of a patch... there's only one 2hp module in here and yet, getting to its knobs is awkward.

These aren't thin cables, but that wouldn't help all that much.

Also not all controls on 2hp modules are CVable, so trying to use 1u modules won't necessarily help. Where they are, doing so will only increase the density of patch cables needed.

[Placid Mouse]

Hello and welcome!

My advice to people starting out in Euro is to have an idea and start small. It seems like you have an Idea about what you want which is great, now it's just about experimenting with what you can get your hands on. Personally I think you should buy no more than 5 modules to begin with and buy a few blank panels to fill the space in your rack. It seems you're already interested in Bloom which is a really cool sequencer, if you were then to buy..

a multi Oscillator with a built in VCA, something like Plaits,
a filter of your choice (System 80 just released the 860 mk2 which has two inputs, and plaits has 2 outputs!)
an FX module for some verb/delay, something like an FX aid
and an output module (I personally love Befaco stuff for this) however this isn't a must if you have something external to attenuate the hot modular such as a outboard mixer.

...then you would have a really nice self contained rig, from there you could add some 2hp modules that you feel would enhance the system, perhaps some modulation. I feel like this would give you a great foundation to work from, solid modules that you wouldn't want to return and an idea of the physical scale of the modules. Hope that helps

[kedowe]

. No menus. No manuals. Limited features (i.e. no extra attenuation knobs on voice modules, etc.) but I really like that! When I see posts about people who have very good but complicated modules (i.e. Maths) and they state that they're "still learning this module after 2 months", that just doesn't sound fun to me.

Not trying to yuck your yum, but I'd suggest reconsidering that position. Maths (and any similar module) isn't that complicated, its a dual slew generator at bottom. Theres just a lot of situations where the musician thinks "Man I wish I could do X" and it turns out Maths can do that. This could happen with any module of sufficient expressive power (I just learned Marbles could do audio rate sounds with v/o on the input, and I've had it for almost a year!).

I'd also suggest against all 2hp modules. They use smaller pots with these tiny plastic shafts and it just makes me nervous. Of all things in my rack, I expect that to fail first (particularly on my filter).

Also, Hi and welcome!

I agree - when I first started out, I saw a Maths at a good price so I picked it up on a whim and it really showed me a lot of basic functions that you could do in modular that makes modular so great in the first place. It started out as a mixer when I had just a few modules, then it was an envelope generator and attenuator when I had a few more, then it became an LFO and logic module when I expanded further. It's been a good friend.

[gogmagog]

I'm going to play devil's advocate and counter some of the arguments posted here against your system as it is:

* Knobs packed too tight together: Actually looking at the layout, I think you've done a pretty good job ensuring the knobs are staggered, which is definitely the way to go. Granted, you'll have knobs up against patch cables as well, however if you go largely left to right (or right to left) it won't be as big of a problem, plus you won't ever be using every single jack anyway.
* You'll get tired of it: Given your stated planned usage of it, patching it only every once in a while to get some new generative endorphin rush I think it'll be plenty of fun, and unless you've got arthritis your fingers will be fine. Put it another way: plenty of people have made a hobby (nay, lifestyle) out of painting miniatures. They pinch and dap and poke microscopically for hours and they seem to enjoy themselves plenty.
* Hold off before buying it all at once: Well, I actually kind of agree with this one, but you can totally buy, say, half of your available HP in things that will absolutely form the foundation of your sound (VCO's, VCA's, mixers, etc.). That will give you plenty to play around with and appreciate, and give you ideas that will either verify your earlier decisions or put you on a totally different path.

Lastly, I'll echo what someone else said about the benefits of first-time buying from a single vendor. I bought most of my 1st synth from Pittsburgh Modular and it was great, I didn't wind up selling any of it. A single vendor often has a consistency in vision and approach that makes their modules work well together.

I think it looks like a blast of a rack, above all have fun!

[kedowe]

One other data point to consider besides ergonomics and function -

People generally understand going into modular that filters have unique tones, but also, not every VCO sounds like every VCO. When I first started out, I was pretty surprised by how much individual character each one had, even when comparing the same basic waveshape. Even VCAs and envelopes can be rather characterful.

Having a little extra space to experiment with different manufacturers is nice.

[NoLegs]

Just don't do it. As someone who bought a ton of 2hp modules when I first started, the ergonomics and hassle of having them next to each other as far as cables, etc, is just not worth it. Also, you have 37 modules packed into that tiny case. Just the amount of cables behind your modules will mean you won't be able to put modules in (2hp modules are DEEP). You also will not have 37 power headers in that case, and even if you did I would question the power consumption.

This isn't even considering how difficult it will be to patch cables in once you get going, let alone turning any of the knobs.

Edit: with that said I love 2hp modules, and have several on my rack. Just not packed in a small case.

[11235813]

Hope you're good with tweezers.
I quite like the functional density, and the fact that you have a ton of modulation utilities in there, but I couldn't even stand two 2hp modules next to each other. If you really want to go down this path, try to at least stagger the knobs vertically so you don't have two pots next to each other.

While it looks cool as hell, and can certainly be useful, an oscilloscope in such a small setup seems exorbitant. Remember you can use something like this externally. To be quite honest, the 1U rows seem the most space consuming here. Is there a peli case that is slightly higher so you can have one more 3U row, and ditch the 1U rows altogether?

All good points! I do have a beautiful set of 5 precision tweezers right on my desk! Ha! Staggering the knobs sounds like a good idea... Give up some of the left-to-right workflow for position optimization. re: the scope... I do have a separate scope (for work) that I could use. AND... the Pelican case is really a good point. The 1500 is the next size up, and will fit 6U. Hmmm.... Thanks for the thoughts! :-)

[11235813]

PROBLEM? I have ZERO musical training. I've started some music theory tutorials as part of this. However, I did take guitar for 3 years as a young child and am GREAT at playing the didgeridoo! Also terrible tinnitus, diagnosed autistic, and somewhat tone deaf. Yikes.

Oh, well the tone deaf autistic with no musical training is fully me my first case was also batshit unconventional, no offence intended, and provided great learning opportunities.

Best thing I’ve done is learn actual keys alongside synth to develop the musical theory side. YMMV!

I do think there’s a risk that mainstream advice may also not be perfectly suited to people who are not neurotypical (or musical). No actual advice. I wouldn’t want it, but then again no one else wanted my starting rack Good luck!

Thanks for the thoughts, and it's funny that your case was also "unconventional". Ha! I have a friend who is a very accomplished musician who has already promised me piano lessons, I've watched several you tubes, and I'm making sense of (for instance) a minor chord "drone" background rhythm with a minor 7 melody. Good idea!

[11235813]

if you want to save space, get an oscilloscope outside of the rack. you wont need it all the time

This is the second comment about ditching the scope! I am listening to everyone here who is more experienced. Thanks for your time. :-)

[11235813]

This is also needlessly inaccessible. For example, Batumi (which is VERY playable) has 12 LFOs in 10hp. Your 2hp LFO modules will only give you 6 LFOs in 12hp! So you're actually giving up playability in exchange for half the LFOs?? It doesn't even make sense from the perspective of maximum density.

Oh! That Batumi seems PERFECT! 28 hours to 500 Hz, now THAT is an LFO! I also like the Tap Tempo. At 10 HP this is very tempting, very powerful, and yet very simple to operate. I'll download the manual tonight. Thanks!