just looking for ideas - i have created a monster!?!

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tsope
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just looking for ideas - i have created a monster!?!

Post by tsope » Sun Mar 14, 2021 3:36 pm

so... worked alot on this, got all the way to 15u, but i really wanted it smaller.
so i have mixed my previous design with the new, and that is the result.
for those who haven't seen my previous attempt,
the system is meant for techno and trance but not limited just for that purpose.
basically a "live oriented" style (i do not intend on ever preform)
built just for fun with the option of taking it with me to friends studios for playing around.
i wanted a one box system, which is what it is,
but i am going to use an external mixer and compressors, and maybe a couple of pedals.

on my previous design, you have really teared me a new one.
and even though i ignored most of the suggestions, it really helped me re think everything,
and that had led me to this system.

so tell me what you think, be brutal, please.
it really helps my though process.
and yes, it have to be mirrored and beautiful, not because i am vain, but because i have a bit of ocd

constructive criticism is welcome, but destructive criticism helps a lot too :hihi:

so here it is
https://www.modulargrid.net/e/racks/view/1508943
Last edited by tsope on Fri Apr 09, 2021 12:51 pm, edited 3 times in total.

jingo
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Re: judge my system - i have created a monster!?!

Post by jingo » Sun Mar 14, 2021 3:42 pm

Somehow miss a sequencer and maybe a quantiser, also find there are too many voices for the amount of eg vcf etc. ...
Last edited by jingo on Mon Mar 15, 2021 2:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: judge my system - i have created a monster!?!

Post by dooj88 » Sun Mar 14, 2021 3:43 pm

back in the early 2000s, radiohead was my favorite band. i very rarely listen to them nowadays, maybe once every few years or so. my point is, your taste will change no matter your current enamoration - you will learn new things and you will learn about new things which will influence your wants/needs before you acquire all that. unless you're fucking loaded... if you are, then go to town brother! :nana:

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tsope
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Re: judge my system - i have created a monster!?!

Post by tsope » Sun Mar 14, 2021 3:51 pm

jingo wrote:
Sun Mar 14, 2021 3:42 pm
Somehow miss a sequencer and maybe a quantiser, also find there are two many voices for the amount of eg vcf etc. ...
it has the Stochastic Inspiration Generator which is quantized and it also has eg built in,
and also the Varigate 4+ which is also quantized, but i also have 2 Ornament & Crime modules.
i don't intend on using all of the voices at the same time, it's just for verity,
and vcf's.... you can never have enough vcf's, but it will have to do

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Re: judge my system - i have created a monster!?!

Post by tsope » Sun Mar 14, 2021 3:53 pm

dooj88 wrote:
Sun Mar 14, 2021 3:43 pm
back in the early 2000s, radiohead was my favorite band. i very rarely listen to them nowadays, maybe once every few years or so. my point is, your taste will change no matter your current enamoration - you will learn new things and you will learn about new things which will influence your wants/needs before you acquire all that. unless you're fucking loaded... if you are, then go to town brother! :nana:
love me some radiohead...

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Re: judge my system - i have created a monster!?!

Post by Raindeer » Sun Mar 14, 2021 4:04 pm

tsope wrote:
Sun Mar 14, 2021 3:36 pm
on my previous design, you have really teared me a new one and even though i ignored most of the suggestions, it really helped me re think everything, and that had led me to this system.
If you ignored all the suggestions, I’m really not sure why you’re posting again. I expect you’ll get a lot of the same responses.

So assuming you’re actually planning to build this then I reckon you should just get started! Order your case and the first 20 or so modules to play with. That will be much more useful in helping you refine your setup.

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Re: judge my system - i have created a monster!?!

Post by tsope » Sun Mar 14, 2021 4:14 pm

Raindeer wrote:
Sun Mar 14, 2021 4:04 pm
tsope wrote:
Sun Mar 14, 2021 3:36 pm
on my previous design, you have really teared me a new one and even though i ignored most of the suggestions, it really helped me re think everything, and that had led me to this system.
If you ignored all the suggestions, I’m really not sure why you’re posting again. I expect you’ll get a lot of the same responses.

So assuming you’re actually planning to build this then I reckon you should just get started! Order your case and the first 20 or so modules to play with. That will be much more useful in helping you refine your setup.
well, since i'll have to order it all from overseas, trying and then returning is not an option for me.
so i try to plan everything in advance.
i'll keep re thinking it until i'll be as sure as i can be.
and as i said, even destructive criticism helps my though process

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Re: judge my system - i have created a monster!?!

Post by skreetis » Sun Mar 14, 2021 4:16 pm

I can’t tell if this is a serious post, or not, since it it seems like the system was designed more around visual symmetry than functionality, but I’m gonna treat it as if it is a genuine request for criticism.

In my opinion, it looks extremely heavy on voices and “fun” modules, and lacking in general utilities such as mixers, vcas, logic, attenuators, function generators, etc. If you want to get the most out of your system, the ability to mix and control signals, their routing and their levels, is just as important as having cool modules to send those signals to. It’s all too easy to end up with a sonic mess if you get your number of sound sources out of balance with the modules necessary to control them.

That is a huge system. You could lose an entire row, as is, and replace them with the types I’ve modules I’ve mentioned, and you’ll get more fun and function out of it.

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Re: judge my system - i have created a monster!?!

Post by klstay » Sun Mar 14, 2021 4:23 pm

WAY too few VCAs and those you have possess limited flexibility. Many of the modules are highly specialized while a general purpose collection of modules which can be patched for the same and many other things are missing. This looks like it is meant perhaps for live multi-track rhythm & voices out? If this is your initial entry into modular much of what is here is more abstracted than might be good for developing understanding then mastery.

What is the goal? This is not a setup for mostly non-live exploration/experimentation. For studio type multi-track recording (PC or whatever) also not ideal. If it is a live/touring rig then submixing w/tactile control is lacking. Output mixing as well. If it is a live/touring rig hopefully you are bringing in the coin because this is a LOT of dosh for something that will be hamstrung in a number of areas.
Last edited by klstay on Sun Mar 14, 2021 4:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: judge my system - i have created a monster!?!

Post by tsope » Sun Mar 14, 2021 4:25 pm

skreetis wrote:
Sun Mar 14, 2021 4:16 pm
I can’t tell if this is a serious post, or not, since it it seems like the system was designed more around visual symmetry than functionality, but I’m gonna treat it as if it is a genuine request for criticism.

In my opinion, it looks extremely heavy on voices and “fun” modules, and lacking in general utilities such as mixers, vcas, logic, attenuators, function generators, etc. If you want to get the most out of your system, the ability to mix and control signals, their routing and their levels, is just as important as having cool modules to send those signals to. It’s all too easy to end up with a sonic mess if you get your number of sound sources out of balance with the modules necessary to control them.

That is a huge system. You could lose an entire row, as is, and replace them with the types I’ve modules I’ve mentioned, and you’ll get more fun and function out of it.
thanks for the reply
i do think i have enough function generators, and i do have a logic module in the bottom row,
as for mixing, i don't intend on using it all at the same time as it will obviously be too much,
but i do have a huge 32 ch mixer, so mixing it won't be a problem.

do you see anything else missing, something i must have?

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Re: judge my system - i have created a monster!?!

Post by Skelecaster » Sun Mar 14, 2021 4:26 pm

This is absolutely insane, and not in a good way. The layout is horrific and unintuitive, an absolute ergonomic nightmare. A patch that uses even a quarter of these modules is gonna use so many cables you're gonna lose some of these tiny modules in the spaghetti. Then, for some reason, even though you have a 12U monster case you're using nano clones of Mutable modules, and just as a personal thing I have almost always found black panel modules a struggle to use with my shitty eyes, with a few exceptions.

Cut it down to an initial 2x104 or something, this is honestly a completely pointless endeavor, and even if you have the 25k it would cost you to get all this in one go I can 500% guarantee you wouldn't be happy with it as an instrument in six months time anyway
Last edited by Skelecaster on Sun Mar 14, 2021 4:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: judge my system - i have created a monster!?!

Post by tsope » Sun Mar 14, 2021 4:33 pm

klstay wrote:
Sun Mar 14, 2021 4:23 pm
WAY too few VCAs and those you have possess limited flexibility. Many of the modules are highly specialized while a general purpose collection of modules which can be patched for the same and many other things are missing. This looks like it is meant perhaps for live multi-track rhythm & voices out? If this is your initial entry into modular much of what is here is more abstracted than might be good for developing understanding then mastery.

What is the goal? This is not a setup for mostly non-live exploration/experimentation. For studio type multi-track recording (PC or whatever) also not ideal. If it is a live/touring rig then submixing w/tactile control is lacking. Output mixing as well. If it is a live/touring rig hopefully you are bring in the coin because this is a LOT of dosh for something that will be hamstrung in a number of areas.
yep, i do want more vca's, for sound, not for modulation.
it really hard to get everything i want and keep it "small" too, maybe i do need lees voices.

it is intended just for fun, not for live. but it is a "live oriented" system, just because i like this way of making music

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Re: judge my system - i have created a monster!?!

Post by Kattefjaes » Sun Mar 14, 2021 4:35 pm

This is just another huge, incoherent mess.

If you're genuinely intending to put a system together, rather than just ragging on people (I have my doubts), get a medium-sized case with decent power, a buttload of blanks and a few basic modules. Learn what you're doing and start to answer some of these questions for yourself. It really sounds like you aren't ready for any sort of large system or even to ask good questions about one yet.

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Re: judge my system - i have created a monster!?!

Post by tsope » Sun Mar 14, 2021 4:40 pm

Skelecaster wrote:
Sun Mar 14, 2021 4:26 pm
This is absolutely insane, and not in a good way. The layout is horrific and unintuitive, you have a 12U monster case but you're using nano clones of Mutable modules, and just as a personal thing I have almost always found black panel modules a struggle to use with my shitty eyes, with a few exceptions.

Cut it down to an initial 2x104 or something, this is honestly a completely pointless endeavor, and even if you have the 25k it would cost you to get all this in one go I can 500% guarantee you wouldn't be happy with it as an instrument in six months time anyway
i am a lighting guy, so i am used to work with black panel instruments in the dark.
and i really don't want to go with the normal route of, buying small and expanding slowly,
also, i do get that it's huge, and might overwhelm most people,
but that is the way i learn the fastest.
i know, i am weird

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Re: judge my system - i have created a monster!?!

Post by Skelecaster » Sun Mar 14, 2021 4:42 pm

tsope wrote:
Sun Mar 14, 2021 4:40 pm
Skelecaster wrote:
Sun Mar 14, 2021 4:26 pm
This is absolutely insane, and not in a good way. The layout is horrific and unintuitive, you have a 12U monster case but you're using nano clones of Mutable modules, and just as a personal thing I have almost always found black panel modules a struggle to use with my shitty eyes, with a few exceptions.

Cut it down to an initial 2x104 or something, this is honestly a completely pointless endeavor, and even if you have the 25k it would cost you to get all this in one go I can 500% guarantee you wouldn't be happy with it as an instrument in six months time anyway
i am a lighting guy, so i am used to work with black panel instruments in the dark.
and i really don't want to go with the normal route of, buying small and expanding slowly,
also, i do get that it's huge, and might overwhelm most people,
but that is the way i learn the fastest.
i know, i am weird
I mean... there's a reason it's the normal route, and I think you should probably not just completely ignore everybody telling you that unless you have a good reason, which it seems like you don't.

Not to mention, you ignored every other criticism just to say "I can handle the panel contrast and I don't want it smaller."

You are absolutely going to be unhappy with this, please listen to people if you're going to post and ask anyway.

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Re: judge my system - i have created a monster!?!

Post by Peng33 » Sun Mar 14, 2021 4:45 pm

Serious question: do you really NEED doubles of everything, or are you planning to buy thousands of dollars of identical modules solely to soothe your OCD?

If the latter, then maybe buy one of each and use the money you just saved for therapy to help you cope and deal with your OCD. Not meant as an insult.

But as everyone else already alluded to, this case is honestly ridiculous. Plus, dunno if your OCD is THAT severe, but you should have noticed that in that Modular Grid picture you posted, a lot of the modules do not even line up and are overlapping each other. I am not even OCD, and THAT really bothered me about that picture. I mean, on top of the rampant consumerism on display and lack of ability to listen to reasoned opinions after asking for advice, and for those critiques to be brutally honest.

You: "Give me your opinion. Be honest."

Everyone: "Do NOT do this. You will be unhappy."

You: "But guys, I'm weird and know what I want, so I am gonna buy all this stuff."

Six months later: "Hai guys...I spent $15k on modules and this sucks. I don't have anything I need to make the music I want to. Why weren't you brutally honest like I asked?"

Everyone: "..."
Last edited by Peng33 on Sun Mar 14, 2021 4:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: judge my system - i have created a monster!?!

Post by klstay » Sun Mar 14, 2021 4:49 pm

If you want "more VCAs for sound not for modulation" an understanding of their full range of capabilities is perhaps lacking? I understand the desire to dive straight into the deep end, but if this is an entry point into modular (even if you have years with a semi-modular Neutron or such) a non-abstract non-specialized system is the best start on the path to mastery. Such a system can still be VERY capable. Consider this. The only thing you will learn with what you have put together here is frustration, but hey it is your money. Peace.

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Re: judge my system - i have created a monster!?!

Post by tsope » Sun Mar 14, 2021 4:56 pm

Kattefjaes wrote:
Sun Mar 14, 2021 4:35 pm
This is just another huge, incoherent mess.

If you're genuinely intending to put a system together, rather than just ragging on people (I have my doubts), get a medium-sized case with decent power, a buttload of blanks and a few basic modules. Learn what you're doing and start to answer some of these questions for yourself. It really sounds like you aren't ready for any sort of large system or even to ask good questions about one yet.
yep, i even thought of buying this case and fill it up slowly,
since i don't want to move between cases every few months.
but i do learn best and quickest when i overwhelm myself.
i do have add and my brain just run at 200mph at 7 different directions,
i have a problem focusing on one tiny thing, but for some reason, i just get huge complicated things more easily
i can learn an entire theater lighting system, sound and power layout in a few hours.
but if it's too small and boring my mind just drifts away and i don't learn anything.
that is why i want to go big, keep my mind busy with alot of things at once,
i just don't think i can learn one module at a time, i need multiple different modules if i want to learn anything

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Re: judge my system - i have created a monster!?!

Post by tsope » Sun Mar 14, 2021 5:09 pm

klstay wrote:
Sun Mar 14, 2021 4:49 pm
If you want "more VCAs for sound not for modulation" an understanding of their full range of capabilities is perhaps lacking?
i think i get it, vca's are the automation lanes of modular.

but i have the VC Transitions, Frames and VC Stochastic Function Generator, won't it be enough?
the way of using eg and lfo's to control vca's who then control other lfo's takes alot of space.
are there any other uses for vca's i am missing? honestly

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Re: judge my system - i have created a monster!?!

Post by klstay » Sun Mar 14, 2021 5:10 pm

If your goal is to learn and master many modular principles, but you still want to "overwhelm" yourself to start still stick to modules with no abstraction layer. This will take a long time to master even parts of it while still being I feel accessible day 1 AND is HUGELY capable of a VAST range of territory. Very expandable later as well. Plus, the most gorgeous design aesthetic going today IMHO.

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Re: judge my system - i have created a monster!?!

Post by Skelecaster » Sun Mar 14, 2021 5:19 pm

tsope wrote:
Sun Mar 14, 2021 5:09 pm
the way of using eg and lfo's to control vca's who then control other lfo's takes alot of space.
how you gonna be worried about how much space something takes up when you're planning a 4x168hp rack?

Please, plan this again in 2x104 and you can get a reasonable critique, plus you won't have to get all caught up in "am I missing what VCAs can do" because you can just learn it yourself hands-on. If 2x104hp of modules is somehow "not enough" for you to concentrate on in one go then honestly I would suggest that maybe the hobby just isn't interesting enough to you.

You shouldn't need 650hp+ of modules before it's interesting enough to hold your attention.

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Re: judge my system - i have created a monster!?!

Post by Joey P. » Sun Mar 14, 2021 5:23 pm

.


It needs more

Image

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Re: judge my system - i have created a monster!?!

Post by klstay » Sun Mar 14, 2021 5:25 pm

tsope wrote:
Sun Mar 14, 2021 5:09 pm
klstay wrote:
Sun Mar 14, 2021 4:49 pm
If you want "more VCAs for sound not for modulation" an understanding of their full range of capabilities is perhaps lacking?
i think i get it, vca's are the automation lanes of modular.

but i have the VC Transitions, Frames and VC Stochastic Function Generator, won't it be enough?
the way of using eg and lfo's to control vca's who then control other lfo's takes alot of space.
are there any other uses for vca's i am missing? honestly
Everything that oscillates regardless of the rate you want to be able to feed into a VCA preferably with at least 1 other source also going in and attenuation/inversion/bias on such inputs is highly desirable. You want at LEAST one modulator or envelope in also with attenuation/inversion/bias options being desirable. Linear or exponential response with continuously variable preferred to switched. The modules you have are abstract and specialized - they are the steak sauce, not the steak.

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Re: judge my system - i have created a monster!?!

Post by tsope » Sun Mar 14, 2021 5:27 pm

klstay wrote:
Sun Mar 14, 2021 5:10 pm
If your goal is to learn and master many modular principles, but you still want to "overwhelm" yourself to start still stick to modules with no abstraction layer. This will take a long time to master even parts of it while still being I feel accessible day 1 AND is HUGELY capable of a VAST range of territory. Very expandable later as well. Plus, the most gorgeous design aesthetic going today IMHO.
ohh, that's pretty :love:
that is a good idea
i did looked at the ceis before, it's a monster. but i think the Quadigy is better.
but thanks men, you got my brain running like crazy.

i do like my design, but i am not happy with my lack of different sounding vca's and vcf's.
damn my brain, it's hard to get it all in one case.
but you gave me some ideas

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Re: judge my system - i have created a monster!?!

Post by cinnatoastg » Sun Mar 14, 2021 5:30 pm

tsope wrote:
Sun Mar 14, 2021 4:56 pm
but i do learn best and quickest when i overwhelm myself.
i do have add and my brain just run at 200mph at 7 different directions,
i have a problem focusing on one tiny thing, but for some reason, i just get huge complicated things more easily
i can learn an entire theater lighting system, sound and power layout in a few hours.
but if it's too small and boring my mind just drifts away and i don't learn anything.
that is why i want to go big, keep my mind busy with alot of things at once,
i just don't think i can learn one module at a time, i need multiple different modules if i want to learn anything
First, human brains can only complete one task at a time and science has proved this. So unless you're not human, your brain isn't THAT special. The brain switches tasks back and fourth very quickly, mentally tiring you out.

https://www.apa.org/research/action/multitask

You can figure out the lighting stuff because you're admittedly a lighting guy. But based on this rack you are NOT a modular guy, I mean this in the most polite way possible. I say this because it's not like there's one thing that's off, it's the majority of if. Even if we let go the silliness inherent in the symmetrical aspect, you straight up won't be able to reach a good portion of modules when this is patched. It's an ergonomic nightmare. I'm not sure how you plan on having fun if you literally can't reach your gear.

Even if you don't want to buy a smaller case, just buy the monster and go slow. I'd give this same advice to the Sultan of Brunei, the money aspect is irrelevant.

Past that, same as last time as far as I can see. Not enough attenuation and too many voices.

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