Power Supply questions for first big case.

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Dadodetres
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Power Supply questions for first big case.

Post by Dadodetres » Wed Apr 07, 2021 12:16 am

Hello!
Im building my first complete system, and I´m going DIY for the case.
So far I've been CV controlling Semi-Modular synths with a pre-made case I brought used.
Playing hardware synths live for several years, the moment I plugged the first CV I got hooked.

This is the rack, I have already 50% of the modules.
4 Rows of 168 HP.
https://www.modulargrid.net/e/racks/view/1524758

I need to resolve the power supply, and have some newbie questions :
-To I need 1 (or more) BusBoard for each row? Or can I plug modules in a bussboard which is in another Row?

The options Im researching are:

-Obsidian Studio 3U power entry model. (website doesn't specify current in mA)
-Obsidian Studio Active Busboards v2

or

-4ms Company Raw power 45 (2A, so will I need 2? or 3 in orther to have more and not worry)
-4ms Company Bus Sticks

or

TIPTOP Audio Zeus Passive BusBoard or Studio Bus??)
TIPTOP Audio uZeus (will 4 of them be enough? each is 2A for +12V and 500mA for -12v. Having 4 will be 2A at -12 and my system so far is 1758mA at -12V, and I have room for some modules to add in the future. Is it recommend to be so close to the limit?)
-Do I need Zeus Access or Access dual?

What other option would you recommend me?
Any feedback is welcomed, thanks!!

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Re: Power Supply Newby questions

Post by butter » Wed Apr 07, 2021 2:11 am

Dadodetres wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 12:16 am

I need to resolve the power supply, and have some newbie questions :
-To I need 1 (or more) BusBoard for each row? Or can I plug modules in a bussboard which is in another Row?
...
TIPTOP Audio Zeus Passive BusBoard or Studio Bus??)
TIPTOP Audio uZeus (will 4 of them be enough? each is 2A for +12V and 500mA for -12v. Having 4 will be 2A at -12 and my system so far is 1758mA at -12V, and I have room for some modules to add in the future. Is it recommend to be so close to the limit?)
-Do I need Zeus Access or Access dual?

What other option would you recommend me?
Any feedback is welcomed, thanks!!
Most of the power-in-a-module systems use flying busboards aka ribbon cables. In a case this size that is going to get a bit messy if you have to extend them, and not really great to have such long runs on cables. Busboards are a better solution, and although you can connect the module power systems to busboards, its a little redundant to buy and not use them. When it comes to busboards, your width is again a bit of a problem - if you have one in the middle, your ribbon cables to each individual module are going to get very long, meaning you might again have to throw standard cables away and make/buy long ones just to reach the power.

In addition, I see you have about 20 modules in some of your rows, meaning you are likely to run out of headers on a lot of common busboards and going to need extensions or flying cables dangled off the ends... so you're probably looking at 2 busboards per row. You'd probably want your main power running up the middle of the case and busboards either side for a bit of isolation. There are probably high header count busboards out there though, and maybe this is why you are asking about plugging into power from a different row to share some less populated row's power. Doable, but again you might find you need longer ribbon cables than come standard. There are some systems that have the busboards located under the rails rather than centered on the row for powering the rows above and below. Still, think you might be better off with 8 smaller busboards for flexibility with rearranging modules in future too - better to have a few spare headers open than some horrible knot of cables to reach the exact number of headers.

Going with power modules has the advantage that they scale well in that you can always just add another, but as you say, you are probably going to need at least 4 of them, and you're probably wanting a big case for non-power modules, especially if you finally find you need more to cover your negative power requirements... there's also a complication of not just the overall ~1700mA, but how that is distributed throughout your rack... is it -450mA per row, or one row at -1000mA?

Although I don't have personal experience with them, for high power cases, the Trogotronic power systems seem fairly well respected and are also "safe" for laymen to DIY. They also have a single power point even if you scale up with more bricks inside the case, so you don't have 5 or 6 wall warts to deal with like the module-power types... although some of those will let you daisy chain I guess.

https://trogotronic.com/product-category/power/
Last edited by butter on Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Power Supply questions for first big case.

Post by flipper16 » Wed Apr 07, 2021 5:31 am

Also worth consideration is Konstant Lab who have great power solutions...
https://www.konstantlab.audio/

They also have a newly created manufacturers forum here on Muffs where you can post questions...
viewforum.php?f=99

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Re: Power Supply questions for first big case.

Post by deft_bonz » Wed Apr 07, 2021 6:43 am

Rob from Gould Case Works installed 3 KonstantLab HammerPWR (new product) and one BoardPWR into my 200HP 19U (case is 16U 200HP, skiff 2x 100HP 3U)

The HammerPWRs power 12 of the 14 KonstantLab filtered bus boards, and the BoardPWR powers the other 2 boards in the skiff. That means I have 2 bus boards for each 200HP.

Plan well ahead, so you know your power needs. The power system should not be used over 80% (or was 70% the rule of thumb?)

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Re: Power Supply questions for first big case.

Post by deft_bonz » Wed Apr 07, 2021 6:47 am

PS: Here's a link to KonstantLab's HammerPWR
https://www.konstantlab.audio/shop/hamm ... er-supply/

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Re: Power Supply questions for first big case.

Post by pugix » Wed Apr 07, 2021 6:58 am

I've had good experience with 4ms Row Power. You could have 4 Row Power 45s, one for each row. I have two Row Power 40 in a 9U x 104 case. I don't recommend 4ms bus sticks, because the only way to run power into them is with a ribbon cable. Get a busboard with screw terminals for power in.

As for busboards, you will get many different answers. Be sure to look at GenusModu

http://www.genusmodu.com/index.html

There probably isn't a better busboard than the GenusModu LIBB. I use GenusModu Euro Header Adapters for connection between the Row Power 40s and a passive busboard.

https://pugix.com/synth/genusmodu-euro-header-adapter/
Richard
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Re: Power Supply Newby questions

Post by Harko » Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:10 am

butter wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 2:11 am


Although I don't have personal experience with them, for high power cases, the Trogotronic power systems seem fairly well respected and are also "safe" for laymen to DIY. They also have a single power point even if you scale up with more bricks inside the case, so you don't have 5 or 6 wall warts to deal with like the module-power types... although some of those will let you daisy chain I guess.

https://trogotronic.com/product-category/power/
+1 for Trogotronic.

I've DIYed my case too, although a bit smaller than yours, and I've used Trogotronic M15 as my PSU choice.
It has been easy to mount and provides a lot of power.
Also, it can handle the cold load of most tube modules without any trouble if you ever want to add one.

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Re: Power Supply questions for first big case.

Post by noisewreck » Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:18 am

1. Don’t use flying “busboards” like uZeus on a case this size.
2. Don’t cheap out on power
3. If you have enough headers on your busboard to accommodate the modules, you don’t have to have one for each row. On my 150HP case, I have two side-by-side but placed in between rows. On this page you can see how I’ve placed them if you scroll down a bit.

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Re: Power Supply Newby questions

Post by Oblivion » Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:51 am

Harko wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:10 am
butter wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 2:11 am


Although I don't have personal experience with them, for high power cases, the Trogotronic power systems seem fairly well respected and are also "safe" for laymen to DIY. They also have a single power point even if you scale up with more bricks inside the case, so you don't have 5 or 6 wall warts to deal with like the module-power types... although some of those will let you daisy chain I guess.

https://trogotronic.com/product-category/power/
+1 for Trogotronic.

I've DIYed my case too, although a bit smaller than yours, and I've used Trogotronic M15 as my PSU choice.
It has been easy to mount and provides a lot of power.
Also, it can handle the cold load of most tube modules without any trouble if you ever want to add one.
+1 to all of this. I've got (not full) 5x150HP rows and the M15 kit serves me well. For bussboards, I got a few with the kit and DIY'd a bunch. Can never have too many (unless you run out of space) and they definitely ge shared between rows depending on HP/module density.
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Re: Power Supply questions for first big case.

Post by kinkycables » Wed Apr 07, 2021 12:42 pm

another +! for trog.

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Re: Power Supply questions for first big case.

Post by mnchrme » Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:01 pm

deft_bonz wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 6:43 am
Rob from Gould Case Works installed 3 KonstantLab HammerPWR (new product) and one BoardPWR into my 200HP 19U (case is 16U 200HP, skiff 2x 100HP 3U)

The HammerPWRs power 12 of the 14 KonstantLab filtered bus boards, and the BoardPWR powers the other 2 boards in the skiff. That means I have 2 bus boards for each 200HP.

Plan well ahead, so you know your power needs. The power system should not be used over 80% (or was 70% the rule of thumb?)
Massive. Monster! Haha. Very nice. How is it working? Did you run into any issues? With the % it depends on external factors. I stick by 50% usage per PSU unit.

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Re: Power Supply questions for first big case.

Post by deft_bonz » Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:26 pm

mnchrme wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:01 pm
deft_bonz wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 6:43 am
Rob from Gould Case Works installed 3 KonstantLab HammerPWR (new product) and one BoardPWR into my 200HP 19U (case is 16U 200HP, skiff 2x 100HP 3U)

The HammerPWRs power 12 of the 14 KonstantLab filtered bus boards, and the BoardPWR powers the other 2 boards in the skiff. That means I have 2 bus boards for each 200HP.

Plan well ahead, so you know your power needs. The power system should not be used over 80% (or was 70% the rule of thumb?)
Massive. Monster! Haha. Very nice. How is it working? Did you run into any issues? With the % it depends on external factors. I stick by 50% usage per PSU unit.
It's shipped, but not yet arrived 😭

With HammerPWR I'm hitting 60% in two rows. The others are between 40 to 50%

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Re: Power Supply questions for first big case.

Post by Dadodetres » Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:40 pm

Thanks everyone for the the replys, I will research all that.
So a general question: Do all company´s bussboards work with all power supplys? Or, if I want to cross companyes is there something I need to know ?

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Re: Power Supply questions for first big case.

Post by continuum » Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:54 pm

Dadodetres wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 12:16 am
TIPTOP Audio Zeus Passive BusBoard or Studio Bus??)
TIPTOP Audio uZeus (will 4 of them be enough? each is 2A for +12V and 500mA for -12v. Having 4 will be 2A at -12 and my system so far is 1758mA at -12V, and I have room for some modules to add in the future. Is it recommend to be so close to the limit?)
-Do I need Zeus Access or Access dual?
The Studio system is separate from the uZeus and cannot be connected together. The Studio Zeus use an external AC/DC converter sold by our dealers which is made to our spec. The Access is a way to have an on/off switch between the Zeus boards and the AC/DC converter. Usually, systems are 3x Studio boards per external converter but you could do a Dual Access with 2 boards per AC/DC adapter and have room left to add 2 more 168HP rows.
Tiptop Audio R&D
www.tiptopaudio.com/

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Re: Power Supply questions for first big case.

Post by mnchrme » Wed Apr 07, 2021 2:59 pm

deft_bonz wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:26 pm
mnchrme wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:01 pm
deft_bonz wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 6:43 am
Rob from Gould Case Works installed 3 KonstantLab HammerPWR (new product) and one BoardPWR into my 200HP 19U (case is 16U 200HP, skiff 2x 100HP 3U)

The HammerPWRs power 12 of the 14 KonstantLab filtered bus boards, and the BoardPWR powers the other 2 boards in the skiff. That means I have 2 bus boards for each 200HP.

Plan well ahead, so you know your power needs. The power system should not be used over 80% (or was 70% the rule of thumb?)
Massive. Monster! Haha. Very nice. How is it working? Did you run into any issues? With the % it depends on external factors. I stick by 50% usage per PSU unit.
It's shipped, but not yet arrived 😭

With HammerPWR I'm hitting 60% in two rows. The others are between 40 to 50%
I know that feeling quite well. I have recently found a dope second hand deal for WoW & Flutter module. Lusting for it for over 2 years now. It’s digital but the character to be had... I remember hearing it in Prague in Noise Kitchen used on a simple VCO and the sounds blew me away... It’s taking quite long for it to arrive too among many other things... the situation is probably similar everywhere. ;’(

Let me know once it’s there!

60% and 40-50% is great. You’ll be all good.

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Re: Power Supply questions for first big case.

Post by Dadodetres » Sun Apr 11, 2021 12:13 pm

deft_bonz wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 6:43 am
Rob from Gould Case Works installed 3 KonstantLab HammerPWR (new product) and one BoardPWR into my 200HP 19U (case is 16U 200HP, skiff 2x 100HP 3U)

The HammerPWRs power 12 of the 14 KonstantLab filtered bus boards, and the BoardPWR powers the other 2 boards in the skiff. That means I have 2 bus boards for each 200HP.

Plan well ahead, so you know your power needs. The power system should not be used over 80% (or was 70% the rule of thumb?)
Thanks!
What is your opinion on the whole KonstantLap priducts? satisfied? something that could be better?

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Re: Power Supply Newby questions

Post by Dadodetres » Sun Apr 11, 2021 12:19 pm

butter wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 2:11 am
Dadodetres wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 12:16 am

I need to resolve the power supply, and have some newbie questions :
-To I need 1 (or more) BusBoard for each row? Or can I plug modules in a bussboard which is in another Row?
...
TIPTOP Audio Zeus Passive BusBoard or Studio Bus??)
TIPTOP Audio uZeus (will 4 of them be enough? each is 2A for +12V and 500mA for -12v. Having 4 will be 2A at -12 and my system so far is 1758mA at -12V, and I have room for some modules to add in the future. Is it recommend to be so close to the limit?)
-Do I need Zeus Access or Access dual?

What other option would you recommend me?
Any feedback is welcomed, thanks!!
Most of the power-in-a-module systems use flying busboards aka ribbon cables. In a case this size that is going to get a bit messy if you have to extend them, and not really great to have such long runs on cables. Busboards are a better solution, and although you can connect the module power systems to busboards, its a little redundant to buy and not use them. When it comes to busboards, your width is again a bit of a problem - if you have one in the middle, your ribbon cables to each individual module are going to get very long, meaning you might again have to throw standard cables away and make/buy long ones just to reach the power.

In addition, I see you have about 20 modules in some of your rows, meaning you are likely to run out of headers on a lot of common busboards and going to need extensions or flying cables dangled off the ends... so you're probably looking at 2 busboards per row. You'd probably want your main power running up the middle of the case and busboards either side for a bit of isolation. There are probably high header count busboards out there though, and maybe this is why you are asking about plugging into power from a different row to share some less populated row's power. Doable, but again you might find you need longer ribbon cables than come standard. There are some systems that have the busboards located under the rails rather than centered on the row for powering the rows above and below. Still, think you might be better off with 8 smaller busboards for flexibility with rearranging modules in future too - better to have a few spare headers open than some horrible knot of cables to reach the exact number of headers.

Going with power modules has the advantage that they scale well in that you can always just add another, but as you say, you are probably going to need at least 4 of them, and you're probably wanting a big case for non-power modules, especially if you finally find you need more to cover your negative power requirements... there's also a complication of not just the overall ~1700mA, but how that is distributed throughout your rack... is it -450mA per row, or one row at -1000mA?

Although I don't have personal experience with them, for high power cases, the Trogotronic power systems seem fairly well respected and are also "safe" for laymen to DIY. They also have a single power point even if you scale up with more bricks inside the case, so you don't have 5 or 6 wall warts to deal with like the module-power types... although some of those will let you daisy chain I guess.

https://trogotronic.com/product-category/power/
Thanks!
So if I go Trogotronic, is this combo the one that will fit my needs?
https://trogotronic.com/product/m15-doublewide-systems/
I see 8 busboars in the picture, but the option says "12 U". If im not mistaken, 1U is one busboard, right?

Also, the black squares are the transformers? Are them plugged in the wall outlet in one end and the busboard in the other end? There is also a red square at the top right of the picture which seems to be the outlet that does to the wall and have a master switch. I cant imagine yet the whole system.

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Re: Power Supply questions for first big case.

Post by Dadodetres » Sun Apr 11, 2021 12:27 pm

pugix wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 6:58 am
I've had good experience with 4ms Row Power. You could have 4 Row Power 45s, one for each row. I have two Row Power 40 in a 9U x 104 case. I don't recommend 4ms bus sticks, because the only way to run power into them is with a ribbon cable. Get a busboard with screw terminals for power in.

As for busboards, you will get many different answers. Be sure to look at GenusModu

http://www.genusmodu.com/index.html

There probably isn't a better busboard than the GenusModu LIBB. I use GenusModu Euro Header Adapters for connection between the Row Power 40s and a passive busboard.

https://pugix.com/synth/genusmodu-euro-header-adapter/
Thanks!
Will I need 6 of the GenusModu for my system? (because of the number of modules). Maybe 1 in each row and 2 in the "in between" rows under the rails.
https://www.modulargrid.net/e/racks/view/1524758

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Re: Power Supply Newby questions

Post by butter » Sun Apr 11, 2021 1:07 pm

Dadodetres wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 12:19 pm

Thanks!
So if I go Trogotronic, is this combo the one that will fit my needs?
https://trogotronic.com/product/m15-doublewide-systems/
I see 8 busboars in the picture, but the option says "12 U". If im not mistaken, 1U is one busboard, right?

Also, the black squares are the transformers? Are them plugged in the wall outlet in one end and the busboard in the other end? There is also a red square at the top right of the picture which seems to be the outlet that does to the wall and have a master switch. I cant imagine yet the whole system.
Yes thats the one - 12U doublewide.
"U" are rack units. Eurorack is 3U tall, so your 4 row system is 3Ux4=12U.
There are 8 busboards - two for each of 4 rows.
The red square at the top right is the power inlet panel and has a master switch. You run a single cable from the wall outlet into it (the red cable in the picture). The panel gets built into a convenient spot on your case.
The black squares are "transformers", also know as power bricks, like your computer might have. These are plugged in to cables coming off the back of the "red square", and live inside the case so you don't have to plug all of them into the wall separately. Their other end gets wired into the busboards, but I'm not sure if you get a split from the brick, or if the two boards get chained together. It looks like there might be two "master" busboards and the rest get chained off them...?

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Re: Power Supply questions for first big case.

Post by Polarflux » Sun Apr 11, 2021 1:26 pm

I’m running three tiptop studio bus boards with their power brick and breakout (which I installed into the side of my case to make some room). Super easy solution and quiet.
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Re: Power Supply questions for first big case.

Post by pugix » Sun Apr 11, 2021 4:04 pm

Dadodetres wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 12:27 pm
pugix wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 6:58 am
http://www.genusmodu.com/products/libb.html
Thanks!
Will I need 6 of the GenusModu for my system? (because of the number of modules). Maybe 1 in each row and 2 in the "in between" rows under the rails.
https://www.modulargrid.net/e/racks/view/1524758
The LIBB has 14 shrouded headers. Do you anticipate 84 modules?

If you are going with LIBB, you should consider upgrading from those Tiptop uZeus supplies, which are weak on the -12V and +5V current. There are many supplies you could use. Read all the information about the LIBB before you decide, including recommended power supplies.

It can be awkward to supply input power to a bunch of small switching supplies like the uZeus and Row Power. You'd need multiple wall warts or some other means of connecting the inputs of the switchers to a fewer number of wall warts. So look into larger linear or switching power supplies. They require AC mains wiring, which is dangerous unless you know what you're doing. But offer advantages, too.
Richard
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Re: Power Supply Newby questions

Post by Dadodetres » Sun Apr 11, 2021 7:10 pm

butter wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 1:07 pm
Dadodetres wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 12:19 pm

Thanks!
So if I go Trogotronic, is this combo the one that will fit my needs?
https://trogotronic.com/product/m15-doublewide-systems/
I see 8 busboars in the picture, but the option says "12 U". If im not mistaken, 1U is one busboard, right?

Also, the black squares are the transformers? Are them plugged in the wall outlet in one end and the busboard in the other end? There is also a red square at the top right of the picture which seems to be the outlet that does to the wall and have a master switch. I cant imagine yet the whole system.
Yes thats the one - 12U doublewide.
"U" are rack units. Eurorack is 3U tall, so your 4 row system is 3Ux4=12U.
There are 8 busboards - two for each of 4 rows.
The red square at the top right is the power inlet panel and has a master switch. You run a single cable from the wall outlet into it (the red cable in the picture). The panel gets built into a convenient spot on your case.
The black squares are "transformers", also know as power bricks, like your computer might have. These are plugged in to cables coming off the back of the "red square", and live inside the case so you don't have to plug all of them into the wall separately. Their other end gets wired into the busboards, but I'm not sure if you get a split from the brick, or if the two boards get chained together. It looks like there might be two "master" busboards and the rest get chained off them...?
thanks!

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Re: Power Supply questions for first big case.

Post by deft_bonz » Mon Apr 12, 2021 1:57 am

Dadodetres wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 12:13 pm
deft_bonz wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 6:43 am
Rob from Gould Case Works installed 3 KonstantLab HammerPWR (new product) and one BoardPWR into my 200HP 19U (case is 16U 200HP, skiff 2x 100HP 3U)

The HammerPWRs power 12 of the 14 KonstantLab filtered bus boards, and the BoardPWR powers the other 2 boards in the skiff. That means I have 2 bus boards for each 200HP.

Plan well ahead, so you know your power needs. The power system should not be used over 80% (or was 70% the rule of thumb?)
Thanks!
What is your opinion on the whole KonstantLap priducts? satisfied? something that could be better?
Cannot yet say anything about it. The case hasn't yet arrived :cry:

I will report back as soon as I fed the monster, turned it on and created the first patch with it ;)

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Re: Power Supply questions for first big case.

Post by laggen » Mon Apr 12, 2021 2:14 am

I have a 9u 126hp case and went with the 18u Trogotronic system. You will need multiple busboards for sure to reach all of the modules. Attached a pic so you can see what it looks like in a 126hp case.
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20210325_224540.jpg

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Re: Power Supply questions for first big case.

Post by deft_bonz » Mon Apr 12, 2021 2:17 am

laggen wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 2:14 am
I have a 9u 126hp case and went with the 18u Trogotronic system. You will need multiple busboards for sure to reach all of the modules. Attached a pic so you can see what it looks like in a 126hp case.
Why didn't you put the bricks outside of the case? Don't you fear too much unnecessary heat in the case?

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