Tiptop Audio - Trigger Riot

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efluon
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Re: Trigger Riot skips when using external reset

Post by efluon » Mon Nov 30, 2020 9:16 am

continuum wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 9:02 am
Reset needs to be synced with the Clock signal to work best. Set the Reset pin then set the Clock pin. It's just like the SPI CS pin - set the CS pin and then start the clock. This is the standard (and really only) method for digital protocol communications that works.
thanks, this has been driving me nuts.
seems to make immediate sense.
so basically first clock after start of reset triggers reset, right?

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Re: Trigger Riot skips when using external reset

Post by continuum » Tue Dec 01, 2020 1:54 pm

efluon wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 9:16 am
continuum wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 9:02 am
Reset needs to be synced with the Clock signal to work best. Set the Reset pin then set the Clock pin. It's just like the SPI CS pin - set the CS pin and then start the clock. This is the standard (and really only) method for digital protocol communications that works.
thanks, this has been driving me nuts.
seems to make immediate sense.
so basically first clock after start of reset triggers reset, right?
If you are setting the Reset and Clock HIGH to get the rising edge from your micro:

1) Set Reset pin HIGH
2) do some processing or put a couple of nop() in
3) Set Clock pin HIGH
4) End of Clock pulse pull Clock pin LOW
5) Pull Reset pin LOW
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Re: Tiptop Audio - Trigger Riot

Post by Thedoge » Tue Dec 01, 2020 6:19 pm

I'm having some issues with the clock on the trigger riot, it doesn't matter if it's acting like master o slave but it randomly skips a step, if I put ie start at 4 and end at 20 having an infinite 4x4 beat it skips or jumps a beat randomly, it can be playing a beat like 24 bars and then happens or happening at 2 bars, this is driving me crazy, also if in sync it never starts on the first beat even if I force the reset manually

any tip?

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Re: Tiptop Audio - Trigger Riot

Post by mr.pink » Fri Jan 15, 2021 1:15 pm

I did the firmware upgrade some months ago and was really happy about the update on the master knob to select modes. However now it is _almost_ there, but not quite. For everyone who is not using TR as a master clock, the main knob stays unused most of the time (except for setting the parameters in the beginning). And for the ones using it as master clock, the timeout on the mode selection is quite dangerous, because it goes back to BPM selection and you mess up your tempo inadvertently. I would suggest:
Either the long press on mode button changes the mode with no timeout, another long press brings it back to BPM (I know I will press it once and leave it there). Or the default function is mode selection and BPM changes are done by turning with button pressed. In my view it would make much more sense. Even if TR is your master clock, how many times do you change the BPM and how many times do you switch modes? The main button would be much more suited for mode selection which is used all the time. I really do appreciate that tiptop listens to its customers (as I recently wrote here), however right now it is neither fish nor flesh. Ergonomically it's strange, and the timeout spoils the fun. I took my time to write this post as I wanted to really play with it for a while to see if it works. Now I'm back to pushing the little nasty button instead of turning the nice encoder. Please please Tiptop, most of the work is done, it's just a small step now, and it will make the module much more playable.

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Re: Tiptop Audio - Trigger Riot

Post by OHEXOH » Fri Jan 22, 2021 6:04 pm

Thedoge wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 6:19 pm
I'm having some issues with the clock on the trigger riot, it doesn't matter if it's acting like master o slave but it randomly skips a step, if I put ie start at 4 and end at 20 having an infinite 4x4 beat it skips or jumps a beat randomly, it can be playing a beat like 24 bars and then happens or happening at 2 bars, this is driving me crazy, also if in sync it never starts on the first beat even if I force the reset manually

any tip?
EDIT: this was down to user error / DAW oddness. I spent some more time on this and have managed to get it working bang on the beat. :doh:



I'm having the same issue. I'm actually quite disappointed / frustrated how out of sync this module is. It's a (trigger) sequencer - isn't that it's primary task! Nothing I've tried gets this in sync with my DAW & an ES-5 (16ths / 24p w/ run signal / DAW with reset signal). It's always out. :bang:

Also - the whole cycle start and cycle end seems really clumsy - it's like it assumes you wouldn't want to work on the downbeat when in most instances you would. :mad:
Last edited by OHEXOH on Sat Jan 23, 2021 7:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tiptop Audio - Trigger Riot

Post by continuum » Sat Jan 23, 2021 5:00 pm

OHEXOH wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 6:04 pm
It's a (trigger) sequencer - isn't that it's primary task!
No, the Riot is not a trigger sequencer at all - Circadian Rhythms is our trigger sequencer.

The reason for the Cycle Start and End is to give the maximum flexibility in determining how the internal count starts and where loops end. There is no assumption that you are working on 4/4 techno or anything even rhythmically based (the original idea is based on a Max patch that emulated Eno's tape loops on 'Music for Airports' - very long cycles).

There seems to be some incompatibility with Expert Sleepers gear and proper pulse generation. In many cases removing that and just driving the Riot with an audio out from the DAW fixes the sync issues.
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Re: Tiptop Audio - Trigger Riot

Post by donrock » Sat Jan 23, 2021 5:18 pm

continuum wrote:
Sat Jan 23, 2021 5:00 pm
In many cases removing that and just driving the Riot with an audio out from the DAW fixes the sync issues.
You mean you can put an audio signal (like a song, full mix) into Clock in, and it will sync with the song's tempo? Or did I misunderstand something?

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Re: Tiptop Audio - Trigger Riot

Post by OHEXOH » Sat Jan 23, 2021 6:10 pm

donrock wrote:
Sat Jan 23, 2021 5:18 pm
continuum wrote:
Sat Jan 23, 2021 5:00 pm
In many cases removing that and just driving the Riot with an audio out from the DAW fixes the sync issues.
You mean you can put an audio signal (like a song, full mix) into Clock in, and it will sync with the song's tempo? Or did I misunderstand something?
No - in the TR manual there are instructions on sending a clock pulse via audio from a DAW and using that.
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Re: Tiptop Audio - Trigger Riot

Post by OHEXOH » Sat Jan 23, 2021 6:21 pm

continuum wrote:
Sat Jan 23, 2021 5:00 pm
OHEXOH wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 6:04 pm
It's a (trigger) sequencer - isn't that it's primary task!
No, the Riot is not a trigger sequencer at all - Circadian Rhythms is our trigger sequencer.

The reason for the Cycle Start and End is to give the maximum flexibility in determining how the internal count starts and where loops end. There is no assumption that you are working on 4/4 techno or anything even rhythmically based (the original idea is based on a Max patch that emulated Eno's tape loops on 'Music for Airports' - very long cycles).

There seems to be some incompatibility with Expert Sleepers gear and proper pulse generation. In many cases removing that and just driving the Riot with an audio out from the DAW fixes the sync issues.
OK - I guess it's the Expert Sleepers trigger that is janky. I'll try and figure out a different clock source.

I understand this has many more uses than 4/4 music so if setting Cycle Start to 4 to keep downbeats in sync then that's fine.

As a note, I wish the order of the menu would go to Cycle Start first rather than Cycle End first. And, I also found a bug where if you set CYCE to be a value like 8 then when you adjust CYCS going clock wise it will go up to 7 and then jump back to 1. However if you go anti-clockwise you can pick 8. Ie: you get different values depending on which way you turn the knob. I'm assuming this is not correct?
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Re: Tiptop Audio - Trigger Riot

Post by OHEXOH » Sat Jan 23, 2021 7:53 pm

I wanted to add, I update my post above. The sync was down my user error / DAW set up issues. Forgive me Tiptop :foul:
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Re: Tiptop Audio - Trigger Riot

Post by mr.pink » Sun Jan 24, 2021 4:53 am

OHEXOH wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 6:04 pm
Also - the whole cycle start and cycle end seems really clumsy - it's like it assumes you wouldn't want to work on the downbeat when in most instances you would. :mad:
It's not clumsy, unusual yes, but I find it pretty clever. I like Trigger Riot, because it takes basic modular techniques and abstracts/condenses these in a very usable package. You could create a similar trigger sequencer from modules in 120 hp like this: Image
TR takes this nice idea and improves it with precise shifting (clock shift) and most importantly with the ability to set the bar length. If you added a bar length counter to the clock divider in the above example, you would face the same downbeat/upbeat issues. I don't think it's that simple and have accepted the simple arithmetic calculation before each project as part of the game. Although the basic idea is explained pretty well in the TR manual, I also needed some time to wrap my head around it. Here are some examples of how I use it. I have TR synced to Pamela's workout permanently but it works the same with the A-190-8 midi clock.

Firstly to translate these numbers to their musical equivalent: 4 is always a whole note, 2 is half note, 1 is quarter note.

Let's say you want 16 bars of 4/4 with a kick on the beginning of every second bar (divider on 8).
You must set the start to this divider value and increment the end accordingly.
8 x 8 = 64
Cycle end: 64 + 8 = 72 Cycle start: 8.

If you had set end 20, start 4, the 8 divison would be exactly on the upbeat.

I really like odd rhythms like 7/8, 9/8, 5/4 etc. This is not always straightforward with clock, sequencer and divider modules. On TR it's easy - once you've done your little morning arithmetic.
For 8 bars of 7/8: 7 x 8 = 56. Start is on 7, so end must be 56 + 7 = 63
For 16 bars: 7 x 16 = 112, start is 7, end is 112 + 7 = 119

The rule of thumb to follow is: Take the number of the divider you want to be on the downbeat. That is start. Multiply it by 8 (or 4 or 16 depending on how long you want your pattern to be) and add the same number to it. That's end.

TR is fun and instantly gratifying to just jam out without setting the beginning and end, but there is no getting around this calculation if you want to use with a composed piece of music. I was syncing it to the DAW by recording and cutting the clock for a while. Recently I gave in and bought the A-190-8, both clocking methods work fine with TR as well as Pamela. However I couldn't get reset to work with A-190-8's signal. Some more random thoughts:

- At the beginning of each project, I set the beginning and end and copy this empty template to the 4 presets of the bank.

- Any division under half of end will vary, anything above the half plays only once. Set the basic 4x4 example from the manual (start 4, end 20). Set one encoder to 4, and another one on 9. Now change the 9 to 11. You'll hear that 9 shifts, 11 doesn't. The same goes for longer patterns. On 8 x 8 (end is 72), anything under 36 will shift, anything above plays once. It's quite logical, but took me a while to realize.

To end this post, I would like to repeat my plea to Tiptop Audio: Please do the little firmware upgrade where the long press on the mode button is sticky, without bouncing back to BPM mode. It will be better, I know it, you know it. I know you must be super-busy but please just remove the timeout. I volunteer to update the documentation.
Last edited by mr.pink on Sun Jan 24, 2021 6:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Tiptop Audio - Trigger Riot

Post by mr.pink » Sun Jan 24, 2021 5:08 am

I started to write the previous message yesterday and then got distracted, I see meanwhile the thread continued.
(the original idea is based on a Max patch that emulated Eno's tape loops on 'Music for Airports' - very long cycles).
Really interesting to know, thanks.

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Re: Tiptop Audio - Trigger Riot

Post by efluon » Sun Jan 24, 2021 5:17 am

Sync is really easy to do wrong and the Trigger Riot does look broken then.

The issue is not easy to understand (with all the other sync difficulties on top). It becomes clearer when you think about what (when) actually has to happen to reset to the downbeat in time.

I think it would do good if TipTop offered a short tutorial / manual section explaining it explicitly, and not only with a DAW that has two audio-channels to spare.

Continuums help here is great though.

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Re: Tiptop Audio - Trigger Riot

Post by continuum » Sun Jan 24, 2021 10:57 am

OHEXOH wrote:
Sat Jan 23, 2021 6:21 pm
As a note, I wish the order of the menu would go to Cycle Start first rather than Cycle End first. And, I also found a bug where if you set CYCE to be a value like 8 then when you adjust CYCS going clock wise it will go up to 7 and then jump back to 1. However if you go anti-clockwise you can pick 8. Ie: you get different values depending on which way you turn the knob. I'm assuming this is not correct?
That might be a bug - CYCE = 8 should only allow CYCS 1 to 7. I'll have to take a look at that.
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Re: Tiptop Audio - Trigger Riot

Post by continuum » Sun Jan 24, 2021 11:01 am

mr.pink wrote:
Sun Jan 24, 2021 4:53 am
To end this post, I would like to repeat my plea to Tiptop Audio: Please do the little firmware upgrade where the long press on the mode button is sticky, without bouncing back to BPM mode. It will be better, I know it, you know it. I know you must be super-busy but please just remove the timeout. I volunteer to update the documentation.
Thanks for posting all the info above. I will look into making the Mode button latching but I seem to recall someone else arguing for the timeout equally strongly since there isn't really a quick way to know what the Tempo encoder controls. The UI is probably more consistent with the timeout to a default state, but the latching is also worth trying.
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Re: Tiptop Audio - Trigger Riot

Post by OHEXOH » Sun Jan 24, 2021 12:17 pm

I definitely agree and this is why I bought the Riot, it’s an experimental, musical and very playable gate sequencer/generator.

I’m definitely prepared to work with how it works in order to harness the power it offers. I understand the reason for start / end cycle and also value that such a feature exists, it would be too easy to end up in a poly metric mess if it didn’t exist (though you can also do that with the Riot if you want - heh heh).

All in all I’m very happy with my new purchase.
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Re: Tiptop Audio - Trigger Riot

Post by ignatius » Sun Jan 24, 2021 3:09 pm

fwiw the clock in the CR is the most stable solid non-drifting clock in any euro sequencer i've used. it's as stable as an LFO. every other sequencer i've used/own has some jitter or drift over time.

i think part of the problem with manyeurorack sequencers is the tempo is not represented accurately. meaning it might say you're at 110 bpm but you're really at 110.073 bpm. but there's no way to know w/o doing some trial and error in a DAW after recording.

but the CR didn't have this problem when i used it.

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Re: Tiptop Audio - Trigger Riot

Post by mr.pink » Mon Jan 25, 2021 12:56 pm

The UI is probably more consistent with the timeout to a default state, but the latching is also worth trying.
Thank you, I would really welcome it. Of course I understand you can't piss off long standing users with a drastic change like this (Although it's a logical move: You change modes much more than changing BPM). On the other hand, there is no need for anyone to upgrade the firmware if this the only change. So maybe with a big warning for users who want to keep it the old way? Or maybe an alternative version? Or open source the code? In any case I would very much appreciate it. I was amazed that this happened in the first place, now it's like a tiny last step is missing. Thanks again!

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Re: Tiptop Audio - Trigger Riot

Post by CorpusCallosum » Tue Jan 26, 2021 12:42 am

efluon wrote:
Sun Jan 24, 2021 5:17 am
Sync is really easy to do wrong and the Trigger Riot does look broken then.

The issue is not easy to understand (with all the other sync difficulties on top). It becomes clearer when you think about what (when) actually has to happen to reset to the downbeat in time.

I think it would do good if TipTop offered a short tutorial / manual section explaining it explicitly, and not only with a DAW that has two audio-channels to spare.

Continuums help here is great though.
I second the idea of Tiptop doing a tutorial or manual supplement explaining this in more detail. It's not at all self-evident (to me, at least).

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Re: Tiptop Audio - Trigger Riot

Post by continuum » Tue Jan 26, 2021 9:03 am

It's not been easy to find someone to make in depth tutorials for things like Riot sync. We have tried several times over the years and everyone just makes an intro video and moves on. If any of you have experience making these types of tutorials, let us know.

Cycles are covered a bit in the manual (pp 15-16). As for how the Cycle works, this is a basic overview:

Cycle is the length of the internal counting the Riot uses for the divisions. This can be constrained by setting the Cycle Start (CYCS) and Cycle End (CYCE).

Cycle Start (CYCS) - the number that the Riot starts counting from. This is basically the least common multiple for all active dividers. The first incoming pulse with fire all divisions at that value. It also affects the sync of the output with other devices. For 4/4 time multiples of 4 are needed for sync. Some examples of divisions that would fire on first clock pulse:

CYCS = 1 = Only divisions set to 1
CYCS = 4 = 1 2 4
CYCS = 6 = 1 2 3 6
CYCS = 8 = 1 2 4 8
CYCS = 12 = 1 2 3 4 6 12
CYCS = 24 = 1 2 3 4 6 8 12 24

This is far more flexible than the so-called 'mathematical' or 'musical' methods (which are backwards on Muffs - 'mathematical' is the one that does backbeat syncopation).

Cycle End - The last number in the internal count before resetting internally. This also controls the external Reset Out pulse in 16th/DAW mode and moves between sequences in Preset Looping. This is an offset from Cycle Start:

CYCS = 4, CYCE = 36 = 32 beats in length
CYCS = 8, CYCE = 40 = 32 beats in length
CYCS = 12, CYCE = 72 = 60 beats in length

Since the Riot has no structure for musical meter, this is the best way to try and fit the output into standard time signatures. Only the divisions that fall within both that CYCS and CYCE will fire. So in the first example a division of 47 will never happen since is is after count 36, and a division of 30 fires once. This can be very useful for end of bar fills and accents.

CYCE = 0 turns off the end of the Cycle and allows for very long patterns without repeating: 2 7 11 19 repeats every 2926 beats

NOTE!! All of the above only applies to divisions with the same Speed*, no Probability or Clock or Time Shift which all effect how events happen in a Cycle. One those come into play it becomes difficult to plot out the pattern without a wall of graph paper or some web app.



* Speed is probably the most powerful part of the Riot that is seldom used. This is where all of the complex poly-rhythms and phasing can be created. I highly recommend spending time with this control if you have ignored it until now.
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Re: Tiptop Audio - Trigger Riot

Post by autopilote » Wed Jan 27, 2021 7:52 pm

continuum wrote:
Tue Jan 26, 2021 9:03 am
CYCE = 0 turns off the end of the Cycle and allows for very long patterns without repeating: 2 7 11 19 repeats every 2926 beats
can preset loops work if you set CYCE to 0? say if i make some weird rhythm like your example above and i dont want it to turn over after 16 or 64 or whatever

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Re: Tiptop Audio - Trigger Riot

Post by continuum » Thu Jan 28, 2021 9:42 am

autopilote wrote:
Wed Jan 27, 2021 7:52 pm
continuum wrote:
Tue Jan 26, 2021 9:03 am
CYCE = 0 turns off the end of the Cycle and allows for very long patterns without repeating: 2 7 11 19 repeats every 2926 beats
can preset loops work if you set CYCE to 0? say if i make some weird rhythm like your example above and i dont want it to turn over after 16 or 64 or whatever
Only with an external Reset signal.
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Re: Tiptop Audio - Trigger Riot

Post by OHEXOH » Thu Jan 28, 2021 5:47 pm

This might have already been asked, but is there any way the output clock can be in a different format than the incoming clock?

I have the TR hooked up to another sequencer but that prefers 1/16th notes and I'm using the TipTop audio files which are in 24ppqn.

I don't think there is. Possible firmware suggestion? :love:
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Re: Tiptop Audio - Trigger Riot

Post by continuum » Fri Jan 29, 2021 9:48 am

OHEXOH wrote:
Thu Jan 28, 2021 5:47 pm
This might have already been asked, but is there any way the output clock can be in a different format than the incoming clock?

I have the TR hooked up to another sequencer but that prefers 1/16th notes and I'm using the TipTop audio files which are in 24ppqn.

I don't think there is. Possible firmware suggestion? :love:
It does not translate clock formats but you could use one of the TR outs to do that.
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Re: Tiptop Audio - Trigger Riot

Post by OHEXOH » Thu Feb 04, 2021 2:41 pm

After having used the TR extensively the past few weeks since my original post about CycleS / CycleE, I'm still left with more confusion than clarity. In my mind something as simple as syncing clocks should not be so complicated.

:sstorm:

In my experience, I don't go into a project knowing my pattern length, often it will materialise as my patch evolves. So say I start with a 4/4. This would mean I should change CycleS to 4. Makes sense. Next say I want to have a single hit on the downbeat that repeats every 16 steps, so I set a new channel's divide to 16, but I then have to go and change CycleS to 16. Later on I decide I want to have another trigger on the downbeat that repeats every 128 steps, so I set another channel's divide to 128 and I then must go and change CycleS to 128.

You can see where this is going, and this does not account for a CycleE value which would also require me constantly changing it's value based on the updating CycleS value which in turn requires some mental arithmetic (note: could CycleE be linked with CycleS so they shift together?)

Regardless, this does work and these clocks with similar divisions will fire as expected. The problem occurs when I add a different Divide into the mix. Say I add a new channel with Divide set to 5 and I want it to start on the downbeat (in phase), how would I do this? If I change CycleS to a division of 5 then all the other channels do not start on the downbeat anymore. If I use Clock Shift to nudge this new channel nothing seems to happen I can never get it to start on the downbeat (I don't understand why this doesn't work).

Why doesn't the TR have all it's clocks start on the downbeat (ie: in phase) and then use Clock Shift to move them around to where you want them? To me, this seems to make a lot more sense. It's already built into the TR although in my 5 example above, it doesn't seem to want to work that way. Looking at other modules as a reference, this is how Pamela's New Workout works. Anyone who's used that module would agree that clock is something you rarely need to think about. It just works.

I totally understand that I might be missing something here, am happy to hear use cases where this solution would not work. By understanding how it wouldn't work will help me understand how the TR actually works. I've read the manual on this, and the posts above explaining this, and I've tried to work with the TR to understand this... but alas... it's not sinking in. :omg:

Bottom line, all I want to do is have the positive side of my various divided clocks occur on start. It's weird but it seems like if I just inverted the outputs of the TR I would actually get what I'm after - but to do this seems crazy...

THX
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