Tiptop Audio - Trigger Riot

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Artaos
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Re: Tiptop Audio - Trigger Riot

Post by Artaos » Thu Feb 04, 2021 4:02 pm

Edit: removed incorrect information, see continuum’s reply for precise answers.
Last edited by Artaos on Sat Feb 06, 2021 11:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Tiptop Audio - Trigger Riot

Post by OHEXOH » Thu Feb 04, 2021 4:29 pm

Artaos wrote:
Thu Feb 04, 2021 4:02 pm
What exactly is the rhythm you’re trying to achieve in this example?
My example is just an example to illustrate the problem. In reality I simply want channels to fire at the same moment (ie: the start) regardless of their Divide setting. This scenario I would imagine is quite common.
Artaos wrote:
Thu Feb 04, 2021 4:02 pm
If you want divide by 4 and 5 to trigger on the first step, what is the smallest step number that is a division of those numbers? That is 20, i.e. 4 times 5. So set cycle start to 20. If 5 and 128, least common multiple is 640, so set cycle start at 640. You can find least common multiple calculators online if you need.
If I set CycleS to 20 then the 16 and 128 channels do not trigger on the downbeat.

And CycleS does not go up to 640 so the other option isn't possible.

:hmm:
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Re: Tiptop Audio - Trigger Riot

Post by continuum » Thu Feb 04, 2021 5:14 pm

For the example of getting the 5 to fire on the first beat with the others at powers of 2 (4, 16, 128) you need to use a clock shift of 3 to move it to 8. The division of 5 will then fire at 8,13,18,23...48...128.... Set CYCS to one of the multiples that line up with what you want on the first clock.

Check page 17 of the manual for more info on the Clock and Time shift.
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Re: Tiptop Audio - Trigger Riot

Post by mr.pink » Sat Feb 06, 2021 10:51 pm

So set cycle start to 20. If 5 and 128, least common multiple is 640, so set cycle start at 640. You can find least common multiple calculators online if you need.
You really set cycle start so high? I have never done this, the highest I set it for 4/4 is 16, mostly 8. Then clock shift the individual dividers accordingly like continuum said.

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Re: Tiptop Audio - Trigger Riot

Post by OHEXOH » Mon Feb 08, 2021 5:52 pm

continuum wrote:
Thu Feb 04, 2021 5:14 pm
For the example of getting the 5 to fire on the first beat with the others at powers of 2 (4, 16, 128) you need to use a clock shift of 3 to move it to 8. The division of 5 will then fire at 8,13,18,23...48...128.... Set CYCS to one of the multiples that line up with what you want on the first clock.

Check page 17 of the manual for more info on the Clock and Time shift.
This makes logical sense, but when I try it as described above, it's very inconsistent. Sometimes it will start on the downbeat other times it doesn't. When it doesn't I'll get a double trigger like it's triggering on the 3 and then the 5... or the 2 then the 5. Maybe I'm doing something wrong but in general, it doesn't work as you're describing - but I understand that the logic suggests it should.

I also have a question regarding clock speed - how does that affect the CycleS value? For example, if I have a channel's Divide set to 4 and the Speed set to 1/4th then do I need to calculate the equivalent Start value based on those two numbers? I'm guessing yes - so in this case it would it be 16 for the slower channel to start on the downbeat?
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Re: Tiptop Audio - Trigger Riot

Post by OHEXOH » Mon Feb 08, 2021 6:08 pm

Is interesting, if I Divide using units of 4 and clock shift them, they seem to play back fine.

Example A
CycleS = 8
CH1: Divide = 8
CH2: Divide = 8 & Clock Shift = 4

Works as expected - a kick / snare type of thing.

However...

Example B
CycleS = 8
CH1: Divide = 8
CH2: Divide = 6 & Clock Shift = 2

Rarely plays on the downbeat (even though it should based on the logic outlined above 6 + 2 = 8) instead it seems to ignore the clock shift and start from a random offbeat most of the time. Example A however always seems to honour the clock shift. :hmm:
Last edited by OHEXOH on Mon Feb 08, 2021 11:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tiptop Audio - Trigger Riot

Post by mr.pink » Mon Feb 08, 2021 10:23 pm

I stand corrected and apologize for the confusion. It is actually as Artaos had said, if you want 8 and 6 on the first beat you have to set cycle start to 6x8=48. Which really confuses me, I could have sworn the shifting worked. With that said:
instead it seems to ignore the clock shift and start from a random offbeat most of the time
This should not be happening. Are you sure you are resetting? With 8 over 6 I always get this same pattern:

8: x | | | | | | | x | | | | | | | x | | | | | | | x | | | | | | |
6: x | | | | | x | | | | | x | | | | | x | | | | | x | | | | | x |

When I set SoC=8 EoC= 40 and shift 6 by 2 this happens:

8: (/ | | | | | | |) SoC: x | | | | | | | x | | | | | | | x | | | | | | | x | | | | | | |
6: (o o / | | | | |) SoC: | | | | | | x | | | | | x | | | | | x | | | | | x | | | | | x |

The numbers add up, but I don't understand why it doesn't play the 6 on the first beat and counts an empty 6.

Not shifting the 6:
8: (/ | | | | | | |) SoC: x | | | | | | | x | | | | | | | x | | | | | | | x | | | | | | |
6: (| | | | | | / |) SoC: | | | | x | | | | | x | | | | | x | | | | | x | | | | | x | | |

This of course makes sense.

Both of the above work consistently, I have set a slow clock and counted the 16th notes repeatedly.

Setting SoC to 6x8=48 puts them both on the first beat every time. If there is another way, I have not found it.

I have to add that I've been using TR for a couple of years and never had the urge or need to plot it out this way. Probably because I don't actually work with poly-rhythms so much, at least not consciously. Odd meters are more my thing. In my way of using TR I have the 4 rows doing "conscious" base rhythms and the columns are where the poly-rhythms and happy accidents emerge, which I use mainly for modulation with Z800, A149-1 etc. But this comes as a surprise anyway, I was pretty sure I had it all figured out...

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Re: Tiptop Audio - Trigger Riot

Post by continuum » Tue Feb 09, 2021 8:41 am

OHEXOH wrote:
Mon Feb 08, 2021 6:08 pm
Is interesting, if I Divide using units of 4 and clock shift them, they seem to play back fine.

Example A
CycleS = 8
CH1: Divide = 8
CH2: Divide = 8 & Clock Shift = 4

Works as expected - a kick / snare type of thing.

However...

Example B
CycleS = 8
CH1: Divide = 8
CH2: Divide = 6 & Clock Shift = 2

Rarely plays on the downbeat (even though it should based on the logic outlined above 6 + 2 = 8) instead it seems to ignore the clock shift and start from a random offbeat most of the time. Example A however always seems to honour the clock shift. :hmm:
Are you using internal or external clock? When I get some time I can check the code again to see what is happening with the resets.
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Re: Tiptop Audio - Trigger Riot

Post by OHEXOH » Tue Feb 09, 2021 5:20 pm

continuum wrote:
Tue Feb 09, 2021 8:41 am
Are you using internal or external clock? When I get some time I can check the code again to see what is happening with the resets.
I'm using an external clock. I appreciate you looking into it. :oops:
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Re: Tiptop Audio - Trigger Riot

Post by Kybernaughty » Sat Feb 13, 2021 3:31 pm

Please forgive me if this question has been asked & answered before, but am I right that probability only refers to dividers, not steps? TBH I‘d love to have probability apply to every encoder mode

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Re: Tiptop Audio - Trigger Riot

Post by dbeats » Sat Feb 13, 2021 5:12 pm

Kybernaughty wrote:
Sat Feb 13, 2021 3:31 pm
Please forgive me if this question has been asked & answered before, but am I right that probability only refers to dividers, not steps? TBH I‘d love to have probability apply to every encoder mode
I think you are right: Probability is per single divider knob, the same goes for the other mode options.

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Re: Tiptop Audio - Trigger Riot

Post by continuum » Sun Feb 14, 2021 10:39 am

Kybernaughty wrote:
Sat Feb 13, 2021 3:31 pm
Please forgive me if this question has been asked & answered before, but am I right that probability only refers to dividers, not steps? TBH I‘d love to have probability apply to every encoder mode
Yes, steps are fully independent from the divisions and are meant as a way to place single events where divisions do not occur.
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Re: Tiptop Audio - Trigger Riot

Post by Kybernaughty » Sun Feb 14, 2021 10:57 am

Thanks for the clarification!

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Re: Tiptop Audio - Trigger Riot

Post by continuum » Sun Feb 14, 2021 11:55 am

OHEXOH wrote:
Tue Feb 09, 2021 5:20 pm
continuum wrote:
Tue Feb 09, 2021 8:41 am
Are you using internal or external clock? When I get some time I can check the code again to see what is happening with the resets.
I'm using an external clock. I appreciate you looking into it. :oops:
Looking at the code I see some commented out lines that probably affect the clock shift, but this was done to fix some reset issues a while back. It will take some time to go over everything again which won't be soon since I have several large projects going now.

You can also try placing a step on the first count which can work for in some situations.
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Re: Tiptop Audio - Trigger Riot

Post by mr.pink » Mon Feb 15, 2021 5:48 am

Is the old firmware available somewhere? We could test & compare, maybe it would help?
Is there a reason not to open source the code? I understand you are overwhelmed with large projects, that way maybe there would be some free help.

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Re: Tiptop Audio - Trigger Riot

Post by rocknrolla » Sat Feb 20, 2021 2:58 pm

I am looking to get a new sequencer, mostly for making techno, and also for live performances. I really like the concept of Trigger Riot, however also understand that it can be hard to create deterministic beats, which are also the core of techno. Do you think it could fit my needs?

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Re: Tiptop Audio - Trigger Riot

Post by Artaos » Sat Feb 20, 2021 5:53 pm

mr.pink wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 1:15 pm
I did the firmware upgrade some months ago and was really happy about the update on the master knob to select modes. However now it is _almost_ there, but not quite. For everyone who is not using TR as a master clock, the main knob stays unused most of the time (except for setting the parameters in the beginning). And for the ones using it as master clock, the timeout on the mode selection is quite dangerous, because it goes back to BPM selection and you mess up your tempo inadvertently. I would suggest:
Either the long press on mode button changes the mode with no timeout, another long press brings it back to BPM (I know I will press it once and leave it there). Or the default function is mode selection and BPM changes are done by turning with button pressed. In my view it would make much more sense. Even if TR is your master clock, how many times do you change the BPM and how many times do you switch modes? The main button would be much more suited for mode selection which is used all the time. I really do appreciate that tiptop listens to its customers (as I recently wrote here), however right now it is neither fish nor flesh. Ergonomically it's strange, and the timeout spoils the fun. I took my time to write this post as I wanted to really play with it for a while to see if it works. Now I'm back to pushing the little nasty button instead of turning the nice encoder. Please please Tiptop, most of the work is done, it's just a small step now, and it will make the module much more playable.
I want to echo that sentiment. Being able to change mode with the main knob is so much better for me, personally. Thank you for that change! I never change the bpm, so a long press on mode toggling between the knob affecting the bpm or affecting the mode would be perfect! Being able to change mode without holding the mode button would make the module so much faster to use for it! Is there anyway we could introduce that as an option? Thank you so much.

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Re: Tiptop Audio - Trigger Riot

Post by Artaos » Sat Feb 20, 2021 5:59 pm

rocknrolla wrote:
Sat Feb 20, 2021 2:58 pm
I am looking to get a new sequencer, mostly for making techno, and also for live performances. I really like the concept of Trigger Riot, however also understand that it can be hard to create deterministic beats, which are also the core of techno. Do you think it could fit my needs?
Would the TR be your only sequencer? It is easy to create deterministic beats with the TR, just don’t use the probability features. Straight techno kick clap and hi-hats patterns would be easy to create for example. It is harder to program complex patterns that you have in your head and want to transcribe. See discussion above for examples.

But I think the strength of the TR lies in patterns that you didn’t plan for. I love to just jam the knobs and see what patterns come up! With the independent track mode, you could have some very straight deterministic patterns on some tracks, and wacky stuff on others!

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Re: Tiptop Audio - Trigger Riot

Post by rocknrolla » Sun Feb 21, 2021 3:17 am

Artaos wrote:
Sat Feb 20, 2021 5:59 pm
rocknrolla wrote:
Sat Feb 20, 2021 2:58 pm
I am looking to get a new sequencer, mostly for making techno, and also for live performances. I really like the concept of Trigger Riot, however also understand that it can be hard to create deterministic beats, which are also the core of techno. Do you think it could fit my needs?
Would the TR be your only sequencer? It is easy to create deterministic beats with the TR, just don’t use the probability features. Straight techno kick clap and hi-hats patterns would be easy to create for example. It is harder to program complex patterns that you have in your head and want to transcribe. See discussion above for examples.

But I think the strength of the TR lies in patterns that you didn’t plan for. I love to just jam the knobs and see what patterns come up! With the independent track mode, you could have some very straight deterministic patterns on some tracks, and wacky stuff on others!
Okay I see. It seems really fun but from what I've read it excells at coming up with very interesting patterns, which is great for experimentation but I'm afraid it can be too unpredictable for playing live.

Regarding if it's my only sequencer, depends. I have a relatively small setup would like to not use more than 32hp for sequencing matters.

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Re: Tiptop Audio - Trigger Riot

Post by dbeats » Sun Feb 21, 2021 3:36 am

Artaos wrote:
Sat Feb 20, 2021 5:59 pm
rocknrolla wrote:
Sat Feb 20, 2021 2:58 pm
I am looking to get a new sequencer, mostly for making techno, and also for live performances. I really like the concept of Trigger Riot, however also understand that it can be hard to create deterministic beats, which are also the core of techno. Do you think it could fit my needs?
Would the TR be your only sequencer? It is easy to create deterministic beats with the TR, just don’t use the probability features. Straight techno kick clap and hi-hats patterns would be easy to create for example.
I‘ve been using the TR for quite some time now, along with a couple other trigger sequencers. Straight forward techno is surely possible with the TR, the 4/4 down and upbeats are just a few dials, even faster than with a conventional seq. However, when I start adding single deterministic triggers for clicks, Plonks and samples, TR can get a bit more complicated to use, IMO, because of the CYCS and CYCE logic and because you need to work with trigger shifts, and you don‘t see what you get or what you dialed in. This is much easier with seqs like Metron or A-157, obviously. If you want to save some money and rack space, Knit Rider would also be a good choice for that, IMO.

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Re: Tiptop Audio - Trigger Riot

Post by rocknrolla » Mon Feb 22, 2021 3:14 am

dbeats wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 3:36 am
Artaos wrote:
Sat Feb 20, 2021 5:59 pm
rocknrolla wrote:
Sat Feb 20, 2021 2:58 pm
I am looking to get a new sequencer, mostly for making techno, and also for live performances. I really like the concept of Trigger Riot, however also understand that it can be hard to create deterministic beats, which are also the core of techno. Do you think it could fit my needs?
Would the TR be your only sequencer? It is easy to create deterministic beats with the TR, just don’t use the probability features. Straight techno kick clap and hi-hats patterns would be easy to create for example.
I‘ve been using the TR for quite some time now, along with a couple other trigger sequencers. Straight forward techno is surely possible with the TR, the 4/4 down and upbeats are just a few dials, even faster than with a conventional seq. However, when I start adding single deterministic triggers for clicks, Plonks and samples, TR can get a bit more complicated to use, IMO, because of the CYCS and CYCE logic and because you need to work with trigger shifts, and you don‘t see what you get or what you dialed in. This is much easier with seqs like Metron or A-157, obviously. If you want to save some money and rack space, Knit Rider would also be a good choice for that, IMO.
Thanks for the tips!

Regarding Knit Rider, it does seem like a very intuitive and simple sequencer. However, I would still need an additional sequencer to sequence pitch. What is the is suggested sequencer then to use along the Knit Rider in order to sequence pitch?

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Re: Tiptop Audio - Trigger Riot

Post by thread » Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:36 pm

Voltage Block, Tirana, Muxlicer, CVilization, Rene, .. All good companions to Trigger Riot, too, of course.

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Re: Tiptop Audio - Trigger Riot

Post by dbeats » Tue Feb 23, 2021 1:28 am

rocknrolla wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 3:14 am
Regarding Knit Rider, it does seem like a very intuitive and simple sequencer. However, I would still need an additional sequencer to sequence pitch. What is the is suggested sequencer then to use along the Knit Rider in order to sequence pitch?
That is very much a separate decision, IMO, and depends on your individual requirements and taste. Bastl Popcorn would be from the same brand, also small and affordable, but only one channel and maybe a bit fiddly for live performances. Similar with Octone. Maybe Varigate 4+ or Scales, if you need more than one cv ch. There are also several nice generative/random sequencers <16hp, but you said you wanted deterministic, right?

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