Harry Bissell's Fast Response Low Ripple Envelope Follower

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Re: Harry Bissell's Fast Response Low Ripple Envelope Follower

Post by roglok » Mon Jan 04, 2021 3:17 pm

Can anyone comment on the findings by Haralds:Werk? I'm surprised that there are new PCB layouts without any replies to those measurements. The frequency of the clocking oscillator seems to have a crucial effect and probably depends on the brand of chip used.

I would be very interested to see some more measurements and scope shots along with data on clock frequency, filter frequency and ripple.

Unfortunately I won't be able to do any of that myself anytime soon...

The alternate version with the analog switches looks a lot more economical - nice!

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Re: Harry Bissell's Fast Response Low Ripple Envelope Follower

Post by Jarno » Mon Jan 04, 2021 4:41 pm

Interesting, so basically, the conclusion is, it does not work?
Had high hopes for this "sampling" envelope follower.

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Re: Harry Bissell's Fast Response Low Ripple Envelope Follower

Post by roglok » Mon Jan 04, 2021 4:51 pm

Jarno wrote:
Mon Jan 04, 2021 4:41 pm
Interesting, so basically, the conclusion is, it does not work?
Had high hopes for this "sampling" envelope follower.
Well, it does certainly work - the question is if it can outperform conventional designs and under which conditions.

For my purposes (fast transients) it works better than the only other envelope follower I have (A-119) but I'm not entirely sure if it all boils down to the LPF frequency in the end... For smoother transients I tend to pass the envelope signal through a slew limiter to balance response speed and ripple.

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Re: Harry Bissell's Fast Response Low Ripple Envelope Follower

Post by Jarno » Mon Jan 04, 2021 5:01 pm

Yes, should have phrased that differently, it does work, but does not have benefits wrt simpler circuits.

Maybe a much faster clock and smaller caps? Should the clock speed and cap value be balanced? To have the cap as small as possible, this way it can charge quickly? Parasitic inductance could cause the signal to be flung up, but maybe that's not a dominant effect.

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Re: Harry Bissell's Fast Response Low Ripple Envelope Follower

Post by Jarno » Tue Jan 05, 2021 8:27 am

Harry Bissells circuit is an idea, not a finished product, so your "start production" actually isn't. It is a step towards a final product, prototyping.
Get boards made, build them, see if they work, if they do not, hack and tinker until they do, order second round of prototypes. Build again, if they work woohoo, if not, rinse and repeat.

There is no money here. And I wouldn't get them in fully soldered, because you need to check individual circuit blocks, build up the clock, does it work? Good, proceed to the next etc etc.

Obviously, given the age of internet and postal services, you do not need to do everything yourself, you can do "concurrent prototyping" have boards made let people build them and try out different things, ten people can try out more things than a single person.

Edit: fascinating, it seems posts have disappeared while I was typing this?

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Re: Harry Bissell's Fast Response Low Ripple Envelope Follower

Post by Rigo » Tue Jan 05, 2021 8:30 am

Moderator message: Some posts were deleted.

Edit: and somebody posted a new message while I was cleaning up.

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Re: Harry Bissell's Fast Response Low Ripple Envelope Follower

Post by Jarno » Tue Jan 05, 2021 8:33 am

Thanks, that 'd be me, I suppose.
It did sound a bit too commercial, hence my reply.

Still, an interesting circuit.

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Re: Harry Bissell's Fast Response Low Ripple Envelope Follower

Post by Phatline » Tue Jan 05, 2021 9:52 am

i write a whole BOM, wrote about SOIC and soldering. Ask Questions about Filter-Jumper (220+220 or 110+220nF), Resistance and Clock speed (1+1+10K less is higher or less is lower F), disclose all costs (so you cant say its comercial-where is the profit?), and you delete this?
Off Topic
you may understand i am a little bit angry now!
Jarno wrote:
Tue Jan 05, 2021 8:27 am
And I wouldn't get them in fully soldered, because you need to check individual circuit blocks, build up the clock, does it work? Good, proceed to the next etc etc.
SMD? the whole point is to automate Processes! And what i see when reading a 10 sites long "Topic" starting with a Vectorboard, going into THT-Production, and the only Concern was that someone measure Ripple with a to fast clock-set? Why do you think this is a topic of Prototyp? for me this is a prooved Design, and what i have read here the performance is good enough for me!

how ever - i see the positive things in a message: one thing come into my mind while you wrote "building block by block...clock" to stuff more Jumpers like J7
Bildschirmfoto vom 2021-01-05 15-35-24.png
maybe one Jumper by the Clock section. if someone has a hint where else a Debuging Jumper is crucial?
J5-Ftip-jumper.png
and for fastening the pcb on a panel i want to use such M3 Standoffs:
M3-double-Threat-Standoff.jpg
i dont know what the english nor german word for this M3 double Treat Standoff is, i cant find it on mouser, anyone a hint?

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Re: Harry Bissell's Fast Response Low Ripple Envelope Follower

Post by jorg » Tue Jan 05, 2021 10:25 am

I don't see how this beats a carefully crafted full-wave rectifier with two-stage rectified ripple filter.
Envlope 5c Circuit.PNG
Envelope 5c Waves.jpg

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Re: Harry Bissell's Fast Response Low Ripple Envelope Follower

Post by roglok » Tue Jan 05, 2021 10:40 am

I'm not sure why your previous comment was deleted (including mine), but your attitude is not likely to be met with approval in this forum...

Folks around here are generally more than happy to help, but a first post in the manner of 'hey i want to produce and sell this, so fix it for me, quick!' sounds pretty off.

You obviously don't have a lot of experience designing and debugging circuits. Of course Jarno is right: the first step is not automation but prototyping...

May I ask how the performance can be good enough for you if you don't have a working prototype?
Last edited by roglok on Tue Jan 05, 2021 11:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Harry Bissell's Fast Response Low Ripple Envelope Follower

Post by Phatline » Tue Jan 05, 2021 11:17 am

roglok wrote:
Tue Jan 05, 2021 10:40 am
May I ask how the performance can be good enough for you if you don't have a working prototype?
because of your work:
userpix/6768_bissell_ef_caps_606sd_1.png
and the 10 other pages i read here @ once :tu:

i dont think have to declare myself
i DIY Electronics since 2004! in the past it was more on the microcontrollerside... my projects: http://wiki.midibox.org/doku.php?id=phatline

you missunderstand my attidue: which is DIY, Open Hardware, Open-Software, and creating Thinks that only a few of humans can think that somehting is possible (and all other say: it is not possible. i have proven enough that it is! and i can!) so i am very sure about my self!
I am not in hurry, but i want to focus on my CV1-Project asap. Where i need a Envelope Follower as CV-Source - since it is a Envelope Recorder/Looper/MSQ/LFO....

I ask this questions (and no one goes into it?) because you are they guys which are into that topic since 2014! it would be very stupid not to do so!

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Re: Harry Bissell's Fast Response Low Ripple Envelope Follower

Post by Rigo » Tue Jan 05, 2021 11:18 am

roglok wrote:
Tue Jan 05, 2021 10:40 am
I'm not sure why your previous comment was deleted (including mine), but your attitude is not likely to be met with approval in this forum...

Folks around here are generally more than happy to help, but a first post in the manner of 'hey i want to produce and sell this, so fix it for me, quick!' sound pretty off.

You obviously don't have a lot of experience designing and debugging circuits. Of course Jarno is right: the first step is not automisation but prototyping...

May I ask how the performance can be good enough for you if you don't have a working prototype?
You nailed it more or less. Your post got deleted because it quoted a part of the previous post.

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Re: Harry Bissell's Fast Response Low Ripple Envelope Follower

Post by revtor » Tue Jan 05, 2021 11:50 am

Doesn’t Elby sell a bissel based env follower? Their module 303
https://www.elby-designs.com/contents/e ... (4mm).html
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Re: Harry Bissell's Fast Response Low Ripple Envelope Follower

Post by roglok » Tue Jan 05, 2021 11:51 am

Phatline wrote:
Tue Jan 05, 2021 11:17 am
roglok wrote:
Tue Jan 05, 2021 10:40 am
May I ask how the performance can be good enough for you if you don't have a working prototype?
because of your work:
userpix/6768_bissell_ef_caps_606sd_1.png
and the 10 other pages i read here @ once :tu:

i dont think have to declare myself
i DIY Electronics since 2004! in the past it was more on the microcontrollerside... my projects: http://wiki.midibox.org/doku.php?id=phatline

you missunderstand my attidue: which is DIY, Open Hardware, Open-Software, and creating Thinks that only a few of humans can think that somehting is possible (and all other say: it is not possible. i have proven enough that it is! and i can!) so i am very sure about my self!
I am not in hurry, but i want to focus on my CV1-Project asap. Where i need a Envelope Follower as CV-Source - since it is a Envelope Recorder/Looper/MSQ/LFO....

I ask this questions (and no one goes into it?) because you are they guys which are into that topic since 2014! it would be very stupid not to do so!
ok then, if you are that smart you probably don't need any help at all.

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Re: Harry Bissell's Fast Response Low Ripple Envelope Follower

Post by roglok » Tue Jan 05, 2021 11:57 am

revtor wrote:
Tue Jan 05, 2021 11:50 am
Doesn’t Elby sell a bissel based env follower? Their module 303
https://www.elby-designs.com/contents/e ... (4mm).html
no shit! it's a shame Laurie Biddulph doesn't publish any schematics/documentation before :75: . i'd love to see if/how he modified the original design apart from the gate extractor. The blurb doesn't even say if there's a preamp involved.

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Re: Harry Bissell's Fast Response Low Ripple Envelope Follower

Post by revtor » Tue Jan 05, 2021 12:27 pm

roglok wrote:
Tue Jan 05, 2021 11:57 am
revtor wrote:
Tue Jan 05, 2021 11:50 am
Doesn’t Elby sell a bissel based env follower? Their module 303
https://www.elby-designs.com/contents/e ... (4mm).html
no shit! it's a shame Laurie Biddulph doesn't publish any schematics/documentation before :75: . i'd love to see if/how he modified the original design apart from the gate extractor. The blurb doesn't even say if there's a preamp involved.
Component overlay and BOM should get you pretty close...
http://www.elby-designs.com/webtek/pant ... -build.pdf
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Re: Harry Bissell's Fast Response Low Ripple Envelope Follower

Post by Phatline » Tue Jan 05, 2021 12:44 pm

roglok wrote:
Tue Jan 05, 2021 11:51 am
ok then, if you are that smart you probably don't need any help at all.
:
whoop_john wrote:
Sun May 07, 2017 7:48 am
I have spent the morning creating a new schematic that matches my board. The components that are repeated for the three channels are designated 101, 201, 301 etc for the various items.

I have also put together a BOM for those that want to start collecting components.

These pictures will probably be too small and blurry to read, but I have uploaded crisp PDFs in a zip file at Bissel follower files

Image

Image
missing Ground Connection in the Reset-Circuit? :yay:
should i ask then if there are more Failures? yes SMART idea!

how ever i made a wiki

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Re: Harry Bissell's Fast Response Low Ripple Envelope Follower

Post by Jarno » Tue Jan 05, 2021 1:30 pm

Phatline, please take this as constructive criticism, because that's how it is meant. Even though you might not want to sound stubborn and unfriendly, you do a bit. It might very well be a cultural thing, given that you are not a English native speaker, but still. Try to tone it down, and you'll find people to be more helpful.
In this community, we've had a few people barging in with ambitious plans, collect a bunch of money, and then fail to successfully finish a project. Which explains the skepticism, and also the rules regarding to tenure on this forum and selling. If you feel that you want to build that particular envelope follower (and as mentioned before, I think it is an interesting circuit, so as an engineer, I am interested to understand how well it works given certain parameters), you do you, and show the results afterwards.
As mentioned above, this started out as a snippet of an article,and work is needed to make it into a proper functioning module, do not expect your first board spin to be A-OK, even though you found a circuit somewhere. Also, Laurie Biddulph has "a bit" more experience (nearly a pensioner, I think?), and is not in the business of selling duds, so I think that particular board is fine. Not sure about the Miscreant board, but you could ask around, or buy one and try for yourself, through hole is easier to mod.

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Re: Harry Bissell's Fast Response Low Ripple Envelope Follower

Post by Phatline » Tue Jan 05, 2021 5:27 pm

i made some "Debug" Jumpers, and addet some "Mod" friendly things....
i have ordered the PCBs and the Mouser Parts.
all infos (Kicad Files, incl Gerber, bom, cpl....) u will find here: wiki.midibox
- Cudus to Harry, i am out.

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Re: Harry Bissell's Fast Response Low Ripple Envelope Follower

Post by revtor » Tue Jan 05, 2021 6:44 pm

Nice MidiBox projects phatline!!
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Re: Harry Bissell's Fast Response Low Ripple Envelope Follower

Post by roglok » Wed Jan 06, 2021 12:04 pm

jorg wrote:
Tue Jan 05, 2021 10:25 am
I don't see how this beats a carefully crafted full-wave rectifier with two-stage rectified ripple filter.

Envlope 5c Circuit.PNG
Envelope 5c Waves.jpg
That looks very nice! I should measure the attack response as that's one of the key points of the Bissell design but would have to get the scope out of storage for that...

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Re: Harry Bissell's Fast Response Low Ripple Envelope Follower

Post by jorg » Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:28 am

roglok wrote:
Wed Jan 06, 2021 12:04 pm
jorg wrote:
Tue Jan 05, 2021 10:25 am
...full-wave rectifier...
That looks very nice! I should measure the attack response as that's one of the key points of the Bissell design but would have to get the scope out of storage for that...
Looking forward to your observations! :hyper:

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