[BUILD] Bytes Turing Machine expander

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Post by FetidEye » Tue Mar 24, 2015 1:02 pm

i used this (removing r14) and it looks like it works.

only: how do i calibrate the trimpot?

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Post by windspirit » Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:10 pm

Hmm, now that I am looking I can not find the place that describes how to calibrate the Bytes expander. Ill add some instructions to the OP later and probably to the end of the build documents since it looks like I will be editing them to allow for the resistor removal instead of a trace cut.

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Post by FetidEye » Wed Mar 25, 2015 4:00 am

is the trimpot for the CV control?

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Post by windspirit » Thu Mar 26, 2015 4:49 pm

Yes, basically to calibrate I clock the turing at audio rate and listen. Then modulat the cv input with a saw lfo and loop length all the way down (full ccw), attenuverter at full positive (cw). You will hear arpegiation, hopefully 8 steps. I then adjust the trim until each step takes an equal amount of time in the travel.

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Post by woodster » Thu Mar 26, 2015 5:00 pm

Ahh, good to know what the trimmer trims.
I'd asked previously (during the muff outage I think) and never got an answer.
Loving the Bytes, just recently built a second one :tu:

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Post by sync24 » Thu Mar 26, 2015 5:05 pm

i think i've finished mine... built it up the other day, tried it without the trace-cut, but with popping out R14.
First issue - it's not holding on to any sequences once you turn the main knob round to lock, so i've just socketed the noise transistor, hopefully... I can't test it out until the morning - hopefully it'll do the trick, otherwise I'm gonna try using a 2n2222 instead of a better quality 3904 I found.
and i can try the trimmer too.
cheers!

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Post by sync24 » Fri Mar 27, 2015 5:44 am

hmmmm, this hasn't made any difference..

Turing dial up around 12 o'clock - random notes
turning it round to lock either way, with various combos of switch/knob position on Bytes - random notes expire and it's back to one note.
I'm not getting any lock or shorter sequences of notes :(

things i've checked:
moved the 4015 from the Turing machine itself to the Bytes expander
swapped R6 on the Turing machine for a 220k
socketed the noise transistor on the Turing and found a replacement with a more matched output.

any suggestions?
i'll try a 2n2222 when i can get one to replace the noise trans.

:ripbanana: :despair: :ripbanana:

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Post by windspirit » Fri Mar 27, 2015 8:36 am

By not holding onto any sequences do you mean that the bits disappear or that the turing is not locking?

Also did you build the host turing module first and observe that it had the correct locking behavior?

I generally check for locking behavior before I add the bytes expander just to make sure that the host module is not the source of any problems that may come up and I know that it is a problem with the bytes expander. If you want to test the host module without the bytes expander, take off the backpack and use a gator clip to attach the last bit of the shift register (I believe the pin all the way to the right on the expansion header) to the "jshort" jumper (bottom lug of the length switch). This will basically make your turing machine un-altered so that you can diagnose the cause of the problem.

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Post by sync24 » Fri Mar 27, 2015 11:39 am

thanks for the reply!!
windspirit wrote:By not holding onto any sequences do you mean that the bits disappear or that the turing is not locking?

Also did you build the host turing module first and observe that it had the correct locking behavior?

I generally check for locking behavior before I add the bytes expander just to make sure that the host module is not the source of any problems that may come up and I know that it is a problem with the bytes expander. If you want to test the host module without the bytes expander, take off the backpack and use a gator clip to attach the last bit of the shift register (I believe the pin all the way to the right on the expansion header) to the "jshort" jumper (bottom lug of the length switch). This will basically make your turing machine un-altered so that you can diagnose the cause of the problem.
yeah, the bits disappear when you turn the knob round to lock either cw or ccw.

The module was built ages ago, either by myself or Steve/Thonk (I've loaned him things I've built now and again) - i can't remember. Anyway, as far as I can tell it has always worked as it was originally intended - though what you say in the first post about the 3904 and 2222 transistors makes me suspect something...

I'll check the Turing on it's own again - note that I have not cut the trace, only unsoldered R14, could that be a thing...? the board is v2.1 I think.

Thanks again!!!

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Post by sync24 » Fri Mar 27, 2015 1:16 pm

I just put the Turing machine back to its original self - R14 is back, as is the 4015. I plugged in the backpack with the Pulses and Voltages and it's all doing what it used to do - lock on fully CW or CCW.

I wonder what I'm doing wrong...

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Post by FetidEye » Fri Mar 27, 2015 2:44 pm

i tested this.
for me, if the '1 tot 8' knob is set to 1 or 2, if i then turn the big turing lock knob CW to lock , it gives me it gives me all ON or all OFF.
overwriting the pattern that i had

if i set the '1 tot 8' knob at 3 or higher, this does not occur.


The CCW lock gives me the patterns like the manual describes.

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Post by windspirit » Fri Mar 27, 2015 3:52 pm

Make sure that you installed the 2.2k resistor that is between the two IC sockets towards the top of the bytes expander board. I know someone else made that (easy to make) mistake. If thats not it then post a picture of your front and back bytes expander board and Ill see if I find anything wrong.

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Post by sync24 » Sat Mar 28, 2015 2:47 pm

windspirit wrote:Make sure that you installed the 2.2k resistor that is between the two IC sockets towards the top of the bytes expander board. I know someone else made that (easy to make) mistake. If thats not it then post a picture of your front and back bytes expander board and Ill see if I find anything wrong.
hi, thanks - 2.2k r is in position.
here's links to two pics of the board, hopefully they work:


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Post by windspirit » Sat Mar 28, 2015 3:15 pm

Hmm everything seems in order except that there is no 4015 in the bytes expander, but that would only affect short range mode. Is there any way that you can upload a video of the behavior that you are describing?

Also just to be sure are you using a strictly unipolar clock signal? Have you tried clocking it with a few different things?

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Post by Zaibach » Mon Mar 30, 2015 7:04 am

So, after a while I decided to calibrate the trimpot of CV input of the Bytes expander. But I discovered that it doesn't react to incoming CV! I tried the given calibration method (clocked at audio rate, saw LFO at CV input, change knob fully CCW, pattern lenght to minimum, CV attenuverter fully CW), but nothing happens. I measured the voltage coming from the wiper of the trimpot, making sure that it doesn't attenuate the CV completely, but i get +/-4V! I exchanged the TL074 just to be sure and reflowed all solder joints - but I can't modulate the pattern lenght with CV. Everything else works like it should - modulating the pattern manually via the pots and the switch. Any ideas where to look next? It's not vital for what I do - it's just bugging me and against my DIY pride that I have a module in my rack that I screwed up somehow...

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Post by sync24 » Mon Mar 30, 2015 3:24 pm

windspirit wrote:Hmm everything seems in order except that there is no 4015 in the bytes expander, but that would only affect short range mode. Is there any way that you can upload a video of the behavior that you are describing?

Also just to be sure are you using a strictly unipolar clock signal? Have you tried clocking it with a few different things?

Hi, thanks - i just made a quick video after fitting a 2n2222.
hopefully this gives you a hint... i have no idea what to look for or check :hmm:
[video][/video]

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Post by windspirit » Tue Mar 31, 2015 8:39 pm

Sorry, lots of support requests for the Bytes expander all at once! I promise we will get them working, to my knowledge everyone who has posted here has gotten their unit to work after we went over a few things.
sync24 wrote:
windspirit wrote:Hmm everything seems in order except that there is no 4015 in the bytes expander, but that would only affect short range mode. Is there any way that you can upload a video of the behavior that you are describing?

Also just to be sure are you using a strictly unipolar clock signal? Have you tried clocking it with a few different things?

Hi, thanks - i just made a quick video after fitting a 2n2222.
hopefully this gives you a hint... i have no idea what to look for or check :hmm:
[video][/video]
Ok, the behavior of bits shifting to the end of the register and then all 0s (for lock) or all 1s (for anti-lock) is indicative of a problem with the "end of loop" connection getting back to the main turing machine board. This connection (really connections, one for short loop length and another for long) are the RED connections in the block diagram of the Bytes expander in the original post of this thread. This would lead to several conclusions:

1) When you installed the bytes expander the header pins connecting to the main turing machine's length switch fell out of it's socket

2) your switch ICs (CD4051s) are no good.

3) you installed the expansion header of the Bytes expander to the "triggers" header on the backpack PCB instead of the "gates" header.

4) You did not install the 4015 to the bytes expander.

So for step one I would make sure you put the 4015 back in the Bytes expander and take it out of the turing machine. Make sure to take the BOTTOM chip (with the turing machine in normal upright orientation). This is one of the chips on the back side of the PCB, underneath the backpack.

Then put together your turing machine and bytes expander only, no other expanders included, and do it outside of your case so that you can verify that the length jumper cables are connecting from the length switch to the Bytes expander correctly.

Then, with everything powered off, test the continuity of your Bytes expander's switch ICs (4051) with the middle lug of the length switch on the turing machine. This will be different for both length settings: you will need to test for the continuity with the "short" pin when the length switch is down and test for continuity with the "long" pin when the length switch is up. Pictures of where to test are below.

Image

Please forgive me if I am being overly explicit. There is no point wasting time on mis-communicaton and I don't want to assume that you know exactly what I am talking about.
Zaibach wrote:So, after a while I decided to calibrate the trimpot of CV input of the Bytes expander. But I discovered that it doesn't react to incoming CV! I tried the given calibration method (clocked at audio rate, saw LFO at CV input, change knob fully CCW, pattern lenght to minimum, CV attenuverter fully CW), but nothing happens. I measured the voltage coming from the wiper of the trimpot, making sure that it doesn't attenuate the CV completely, but i get +/-4V! I exchanged the TL074 just to be sure and reflowed all solder joints - but I can't modulate the pattern lenght with CV. Everything else works like it should - modulating the pattern manually via the pots and the switch. Any ideas where to look next? It's not vital for what I do - it's just bugging me and against my DIY pride that I have a module in my rack that I screwed up somehow...
I know what that feels like!

Do you have an oscilloscope? That will make things easier for you. If not you can run the following tests with a DC voltage and it should work with a voltmeter

Start with your CV attenuverter knob at 12 oclock, CV switch in the middle position.

Test the voltage at pin 1 of your ADC0820, the top ADC corresponds to the short length knob and the bottom ADC corresponds to the long length knob. It should go smoothly between 0 and 9 volts as you go through the entire range of each length knob.

Now apply either a voltage or an LFO to your CV input, turn the CV attenuverter clockwise, and see if there is any difference. You should either see an LFO or a DC voltage added to the offset provided by each length knob. If not, test pin 7 of the TL074 and see if the voltage there corresponds to the CV being applied at your input. If not, test pin 1 of the TL074 and check for the same thing. If you have no luck with any of that let me know and we will go from there.

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Post by Zaibach » Wed Apr 01, 2015 6:49 am

windspirit wrote:Do you have an oscilloscope? That will make things easier for you. If not you can run the following tests with a DC voltage and it should work with a voltmeter

Start with your CV attenuverter knob at 12 oclock, CV switch in the middle position.

Test the voltage at pin 1 of your ADC0820, the top ADC corresponds to the short length knob and the bottom ADC corresponds to the long length knob. It should go smoothly between 0 and 9 volts as you go through the entire range of each length knob.
I don't have an oscilloscope, so my DMM has to do the trick... Yes, I get the response from the lenght pots on the ADCs.
windspirit wrote: Now apply either a voltage or an LFO to your CV input, turn the CV attenuverter clockwise, and see if there is any difference. You should either see an LFO or a DC voltage added to the offset provided by each length knob. If not, test pin 7 of the TL074 and see if the voltage there corresponds to the CV being applied at your input. If not, test pin 1 of the TL074 and check for the same thing. If you have no luck with any of that let me know and we will go from there.
When I apply a voltage or LFO at the cv input, I can observe this at pin 1 of each ADC, at pins 1 and 7 of the TL074 and at pins 1 and 7 of the TL072.

Now, when i switch to short lenght (lower position), then the modulation disappears at pin 1 of the upper ADC and it reacts only to the pot, but is present at the lower ADC.

When i switch to long loop lenght (upper postition), the modulation disappears at the lower ADC and it reacts only to the pot, but is present at pin 1 of the upper ADC.

So it's somehow the wrong way around - the ADC which is selected for a specific loop lenght doesn't "receive" the modulation of the CV input, but the other one does! If I hadn't tested this several times I couldn't believe it...

It has to be something I'm too stupid to see. I turned the loop lenght switch around according to the build manual, and the checkboard pattern (10101010) of the Turing machine when the probability know is full CCW, short loop lenght (lower position) selected and the short lenght pot is CCW proves that the lenght switch is the right way around, right?

Just now I realized that I used the HCF4051BE instead of the CD4051BE - does this make a difference in this case?

Anyway, I want to say thank you for the support! It's great to get help from the creator himself :hail:

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Post by sync24 » Wed Apr 01, 2015 6:51 am

windspirit wrote: 1) When you installed the bytes expander the header pins connecting to the main turing machine's length switch fell out of it's socket

2) your switch ICs (CD4051s) are no good.

3) you installed the expansion header of the Bytes expander to the "triggers" header on the backpack PCB instead of the "gates" header.

4) You did not install the 4015 to the bytes expander.
Woop! i've got some :bananaguitar: going on!!!
Thanks for the comprehensive response!!!
I've had a combo of the length pins popping out - now a bit bent so they'll stick in place - and a mix-up with which expansion header i'd plugged in to.... :ripbanana: :deadbanana:

I only had time for a quick check this morning before work, so will play with it more later.
It seems to have done the trick, though there was one point when it lost its sequence of notes.

I'll report back later on.
Thanks :tu:

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Post by windspirit » Wed Apr 01, 2015 3:33 pm

Zaibach wrote:
windspirit wrote:Do you have an oscilloscope? That will make things easier for you. If not you can run the following tests with a DC voltage and it should work with a voltmeter

Start with your CV attenuverter knob at 12 oclock, CV switch in the middle position.

Test the voltage at pin 1 of your ADC0820, the top ADC corresponds to the short length knob and the bottom ADC corresponds to the long length knob. It should go smoothly between 0 and 9 volts as you go through the entire range of each length knob.
I don't have an oscilloscope, so my DMM has to do the trick... Yes, I get the response from the lenght pots on the ADCs.
windspirit wrote: Now apply either a voltage or an LFO to your CV input, turn the CV attenuverter clockwise, and see if there is any difference. You should either see an LFO or a DC voltage added to the offset provided by each length knob. If not, test pin 7 of the TL074 and see if the voltage there corresponds to the CV being applied at your input. If not, test pin 1 of the TL074 and check for the same thing. If you have no luck with any of that let me know and we will go from there.
When I apply a voltage or LFO at the cv input, I can observe this at pin 1 of each ADC, at pins 1 and 7 of the TL074 and at pins 1 and 7 of the TL072.

Now, when i switch to short lenght (lower position), then the modulation disappears at pin 1 of the upper ADC and it reacts only to the pot, but is present at the lower ADC.

When i switch to long loop lenght (upper postition), the modulation disappears at the lower ADC and it reacts only to the pot, but is present at pin 1 of the upper ADC.

So it's somehow the wrong way around - the ADC which is selected for a specific loop lenght doesn't "receive" the modulation of the CV input, but the other one does! If I hadn't tested this several times I couldn't believe it...

It has to be something I'm too stupid to see. I turned the loop lenght switch around according to the build manual, and the checkboard pattern (10101010) of the Turing machine when the probability know is full CCW, short loop lenght (lower position) selected and the short lenght pot is CCW proves that the lenght switch is the right way around, right?

Just now I realized that I used the HCF4051BE instead of the CD4051BE - does this make a difference in this case?

Anyway, I want to say thank you for the support! It's great to get help from the creator himself :hail:
Just to be clear when you talk about switching loop length do you mean switching the loop length of the main turing machine or switching the CV destination switch of the Bytes expander? Switching the loop length of the main Turing should not affect the voltages present at pin 1 for either chip, but switching the CV destination switch of the Bytes expander will do that (that is what it is supposed to do). Did you happen to flip the switch upside down like the instructions said? :p Also did you use a middle-position-off switch?

If you used a middle position off switch try going to middle position (CV affects both long and short lengths) and then put the length knobs both at 12 oclock and the prob knob all the way CCW. Then apply a slow LFO to the CV input and turn the attenuverter in either direction. Check to see that your checkerboard pattern changes. Based on your test results there is no reason that you would not see correct behavior (it seems that CV IS actually working but that the test procedure may just be throwing you off.)

Either way I would check out the switch that you are using. Even if you used the wrong switch you should be able to do this test and just try each switch position until you see results.

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Post by windspirit » Wed Apr 01, 2015 3:34 pm

sync24 wrote:
windspirit wrote: 1) When you installed the bytes expander the header pins connecting to the main turing machine's length switch fell out of it's socket

2) your switch ICs (CD4051s) are no good.

3) you installed the expansion header of the Bytes expander to the "triggers" header on the backpack PCB instead of the "gates" header.

4) You did not install the 4015 to the bytes expander.
Woop! i've got some :bananaguitar: going on!!!
Thanks for the comprehensive response!!!
I've had a combo of the length pins popping out - now a bit bent so they'll stick in place - and a mix-up with which expansion header i'd plugged in to.... :ripbanana: :deadbanana:

I only had time for a quick check this morning before work, so will play with it more later.
It seems to have done the trick, though there was one point when it lost its sequence of notes.

I'll report back later on.
Thanks :tu:
Great! I go back and forth on hard-wiring these connections, it makes installation much much easier but I have had a few break off in transit. Anyways for you it seems like a good idea since you clearly know how to solder anyways. If you like give that a shot and let me know how things go.

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Post by sync24 » Wed Apr 01, 2015 4:10 pm

windspirit wrote:Great! I go back and forth on hard-wiring these connections, it makes installation much much easier but I have had a few break off in transit. Anyways for you it seems like a good idea since you clearly know how to solder anyways. If you like give that a shot and let me know how things go.
Thanks, didn't get any more time this eve to wiggle, but i'll look in to hard wiring.
yep, plenty of years of soldering under my belt now.
Thanks again!!!

:hail:

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Post by Zaibach » Wed Apr 01, 2015 5:13 pm

windspirit wrote:Just to be clear when you talk about switching loop length do you mean switching the loop length of the main turing machine or switching the CV destination switch of the Bytes expander? Switching the loop length of the main Turing should not affect the voltages present at pin 1 for either chip, but switching the CV destination switch of the Bytes expander will do that (that is what it is supposed to do). Did you happen to flip the switch upside down like the instructions said? :p Also did you use a middle-position-off switch?
Yes, when switching loop lenght I refer to the Bytes expander. I flipped the switch upside down according to the manual, it is an on-off-on type switch, as stated in the BOM. To be sure, I checked with my DMM the continuity of the pins while engaging the lever.

Image
windspirit wrote:If you used a middle position off switch try going to middle position (CV affects both long and short lengths) and then put the length knobs both at 12 oclock and the prob knob all the way CCW. Then apply a slow LFO to the CV input and turn the attenuverter in either direction. Check to see that your checkerboard pattern changes. Based on your test results there is no reason that you would not see correct behavior (it seems that CV IS actually working but that the test procedure may just be throwing you off.)
I think I am confused quite a bit now :lol: Under certain cirumstances I get reaction to CV. I did your calibration procedure again: Clock the TM at audio rates, apply a CV and listen for arpeggiation. Let's take arpeggiation as an indicator for CV:

Bytes' lenght switch upper position (9-16):
Turing Machine pattern lenght switch up: no arpeggiation
TM length switch down: arpeggiation

Bytes' lenght switch middle position (1-16):
TM lenght switch up: arpeggiation
TM length switch down: arpeggiation

Bytes' lenght switch lower position (1-8):
TM lenght switch up: arpeggiation
TM length switch down: no arpeggiation

...unless it is supposed to work like that. Do I have a fundamental misunderstanding regarding the pattern lenght switch of the Turing Machine when using the Bytes expander? Did I fall prey to a classic RTFM
and this is somehow mentioned somewhere? I always thought:

when using pattern lenghts from 1-8 -> TM pattern lenght switch down,
when using pattern lenghts from 1-16 -> TM pattern lenght switch up,
when using pattern lenghts from 9-16 -> TM pattern lenght switch up.

Is that correct?

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Post by windspirit » Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:02 pm

Zaibach wrote: ...unless it is supposed to work like that. Do I have a fundamental misunderstanding regarding the pattern lenght switch of the Turing Machine when using the Bytes expander? Did I fall prey to a classic RTFM
and this is somehow mentioned somewhere? I always thought:

when using pattern lenghts from 1-8 -> TM pattern lenght switch down,
when using pattern lenghts from 1-16 -> TM pattern lenght switch up,
when using pattern lenghts from 9-16 -> TM pattern lenght switch up.

Is that correct?
Well it looks like your DIY pride can stay intact, because your Bytes CV is working correctly! I think you are just mis-understanding what the CV routing switch does.

The idea of the routing switch is that it allows CV to only affect either long range, short range or both modes. In this way you can treat one mode as your "crazy solo" mode and another mode as your "boring repetitive" mode. The CV switch describes which ranges are being affected, so in the middle position (1 - 16 ) CV will ALWAYS affect your loop length parameter. With the CV routing switch in the top position ( 9 - 16 ) CV will ONLY affect the loop length parameter when the main turing module is in LONG loop length mode. With the switch in the bottom position ( 1 - 8 ) CV will only affect the loop length parameter in the short loop length mode. The CV routing switch is meant to mirror the main module's loop length switch in that "switch = up = long" for CV routing corresponds to the "switch = up = long" behaviour of the main turing's length switch.

So I would ammend your chart like this:

CV will affect the loop length parameter under the following conditions:

when using pattern lengths from 1-8 -> TM pattern length switch down,
when using pattern lengths from 1-16 -> TM pattern length switch up OR TM pattern length switch down
when using pattern lengths from 9-16 -> TM pattern length switch up.

Let me know if you still don't get it ;).

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Post by Zaibach » Fri Apr 03, 2015 4:41 am

windspirit wrote:So I would ammend your chart like this:

CV will affect the loop length parameter under the following conditions:

when using pattern lengths from 1-8 -> TM pattern length switch down,
when using pattern lengths from 1-16 -> TM pattern length switch up OR TM pattern length switch down
when using pattern lengths from 9-16 -> TM pattern length switch up.

Let me know if you still don't get it ;).
Thank you for bearig with me :lol: No, I get it now. When I reported that I had no response to CV I must have had the TM loop lenght switch in the wrong position - repeatedly. When I checked again and again I must have used the same procedure - of course with the same result. Now I can wiggle in peace, knowing that my build of the Bytes expander is "Windspirit-approved"! Thanks again for the support!

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