electronotes/musical engineer's handbook/pcc pdfs

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Re: electronotes/musical engineer's handbook/pcc pdfs

Post by mcbinc » Sat Jun 06, 2020 8:39 pm

Electronotes is how we sequester carbon into other countries. Buy the box.

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Re: electronotes/musical engineer's handbook/pcc pdfs

Post by EATyourGUITAR » Sun Jun 07, 2020 10:09 am

we have an emergency that Bernie may never reopen his business. I don't want to sound insensitive in matters of life and death, but someone should buy his stock and buy a license to distribute all forms of media + physical products including derivative works before it is too late. I can think of the last 10 synth wizards who passed without appointing someone to officially take care of the business to maintain continuity. When we lost Larry Hendry, his wife sold his modular for the price he told her it cost. None of the left over kits made it out. probably in a dumpster. think about that.
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Re: electronotes/musical engineer's handbook/pcc pdfs

Post by mskala » Sun Jun 07, 2020 10:50 am

I offered to help with some of this stuff a while back and he responded by personally insulting me. I won't make that mistake again.

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Re:

Post by The Real MC » Sun Jun 07, 2020 8:28 pm

pugix wrote:
Wed Mar 02, 2016 6:37 pm
But I just found out that Bernie put a lot of PDFs online for free. Maybe you already knew.

http://electronotes.netfirms.com/free.htm
Most of the PDFs are not the complete newsletter. That's why I bought the everything set.
I haz a wrench, to fix da synth.
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Re: electronotes/musical engineer's handbook/pcc pdfs

Post by ricko » Sun Jun 07, 2020 11:06 pm

Many of us owe a debt of gratitude to Dr Hutchens, that for decades these were the only sources of information about the 1970s analog designs.

I have a set of notes with the MEH. To Australia it was not cheap, but taking sea mail rather than air made it OK.

He asked readers several times about ways of doing scans, but I don't know whether he wanted to put his life's work under the control of strangers. He still is sometimes on the SDIY mail list.

However, now we have access to circuits galore, and if perhaps simulators reduce the need for first class analytical knowledge and skills, I find it is the engineering bits that are most interesting.

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Re: electronotes/musical engineer's handbook/pcc pdfs

Post by KSS » Mon Jun 08, 2020 12:06 am

EATyourGUITAR wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 10:09 am
When we lost Larry Hendry, his wife sold his modular for the price he told her it cost. None of the left over kits made it out. probably in a dumpster. think about that.
I believe Larry and his wife were lost in the same accident. The family sold the synth. Your point is otherwise well taken.

@mskala
Bernie has had so many offers and 'suggestions' -going back decades- as to how he *should* run things that he put up the notes you can read on his website. It's not a surprise to hear he's not open to making these available online, however much we might feel that would be best.

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Re: electronotes/musical engineer's handbook/pcc pdfs

Post by mskala » Mon Jun 08, 2020 3:16 am

KSS wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 12:06 am
Bernie has had so many offers and 'suggestions' -going back decades- as to how he *should* run things that he put up the notes you can read on his website. It's not a surprise to hear he's not open to making these available online, however much we might feel that would be best.
That doesn't excuse his behaviour, and he no longer has my respect.

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Re: electronotes/musical engineer's handbook/pcc pdfs

Post by meatcliff » Mon Jun 08, 2020 4:29 am

mskala wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 3:16 am
KSS wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 12:06 am
Bernie has had so many offers and 'suggestions' -going back decades- as to how he *should* run things that he put up the notes you can read on his website. It's not a surprise to hear he's not open to making these available online, however much we might feel that would be best.
That doesn't excuse his behaviour, and he no longer has my respect.
Some perspective for people not on the SDIY list - Even when he's solicited feedback, he has no interest in other people volunteering their help, learning what is required to digitize electronotes in a practical way, or investing money or effort into this. He wants an instant solution that takes minimal intervention. Any reasonable advice I've seen has been met with a dismissive, and in some cases condescending response. This includes advice from people who have far more experience in modern day archiving and publishing.

From his own site:

"I invite thoughtful comments/ideas. But, pleases, no more comments about OCR, redrawing figures, scanning from salable copies, volunteers, HTML, etc. - - - or anything that requires my time and/or my money). I am interested in what you know – not what you assume or wish for."

Obviously it's his right to refuse help, but he probably shouldn't be asking for it if he doesn't really want to pursue a digital edition himself. I hope that he eventually is interested in working out a deal for someone else to take over his business when he's ready, since demand is still there to justify the investment.

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Re: electronotes/musical engineer's handbook/pcc pdfs

Post by BWBKc6VyUr » Mon Jun 08, 2020 5:24 am

EATyourGUITAR wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 10:09 am
we have an emergency that Bernie may never reopen his business. [...] someone should buy his stock and buy a license to distribute
meatcliff wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 4:29 am
I hope that he eventually is interested in working out a deal for someone else to take over his business when he's ready
I do hope this happens. I've been meaning to get me a copy of a least the MEH/PCC/key notes package but Bernie Hutchins hasn't been shipping outwith the U.S. for a while. It's a shame when circumstances get in the way of a knowledgeable source passing on expertise they clearly wish to share. I too don't mean to be insensitive and I could be wrong, but I can't imagine he wouldn't want his work to live on if he were indeed unwell.

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Re: electronotes/musical engineer's handbook/pcc pdfs

Post by devinw1 » Mon Jun 08, 2020 10:46 am

EATyourGUITAR wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 10:09 am
we have an emergency that Bernie may never reopen his business. I don't want to sound insensitive in matters of life and death, but someone should buy his stock and buy a license to distribute all forms of media + physical products including derivative works before it is too late. I can think of the last 10 synth wizards who passed without appointing someone to officially take care of the business to maintain continuity. When we lost Larry Hendry, his wife sold his modular for the price he told her it cost. None of the left over kits made it out. probably in a dumpster. think about that.
Agree. This is one of those things were the information potentially lost would be a HUGE loss for the common good. I hope Bernie understands that and is willing to work with someone to make sure this stuff lives on for the next crop of DIYers and engineers. mskala's experience doesn't bode well for this, but hey, money talks.

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Re: electronotes/musical engineer's handbook/pcc pdfs

Post by cygmu » Mon Jun 08, 2020 10:57 am

devinw1 wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 10:46 am
This is one of those things were the information potentially lost would be a HUGE loss for the common good. I hope Bernie understands that
He did not seem to share my view on the value of the information when I communicated with him a couple of years ago. He said he was surprised it had lasted as long as it had, and that he thought it had little lasting value.

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Re: electronotes/musical engineer's handbook/pcc pdfs

Post by wackelpeter » Mon Jun 08, 2020 12:10 pm

cygmu wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 10:57 am
He did not seem to share my view on the value of the information when I communicated with him a couple of years ago. He said he was surprised it had lasted as long as it had, and that he thought it had little lasting value.
From the technological point he might be right as much of these circuits have a neat antiquity touch on them, as an professional in electronics he was/is aware that most of the future technologies go the digital path. From a technological aspect it might be outdated, but well some people love to live in the past or keep at least parts of it. I have never seen anyone thrwoing out old family photographs in the bin as there are now ways to store them on a hard drive and digitalize them or records that have a certain value to someone. Moving with a massive record collection is no fun and your backbone sends some painful greetings, but all in all once it's done, you're happy that you kept them all and with them the rememberances.

But what he might have hugely underestimated is the amount of lovers of this old school technique and synths. I mean you have plenty of lovers of oldtimer automobiles who spent massive amount of time on their hobby and keep and try to preserve those things. So it's not so surprising that in the synth-sector there is an equivalent amount of positively crazy folks, sharing those same interests but with synths.

Might be a bit ironical that some digital format and downloads might help to preserve this, but that's better than nothing. And as i know there are still a lot of folks prefering the paper form in their hands, like myself, so there will be enough physical copies around.

Don't know what his ideas on further copyrights are, if he wishes that somebody might hold them then (family or close friends) or if he's okay to have them available for common privat non-commercial use or not.

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Re: electronotes/musical engineer's handbook/pcc pdfs

Post by devinw1 » Mon Jun 08, 2020 12:27 pm

cygmu wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 10:57 am
devinw1 wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 10:46 am
This is one of those things were the information potentially lost would be a HUGE loss for the common good. I hope Bernie understands that
He did not seem to share my view on the value of the information when I communicated with him a couple of years ago. He said he was surprised it had lasted as long as it had, and that he thought it had little lasting value.
I guess that makes sense. I was trying to explain some stuff I was working on with a EE coworker of mine. He's an older fellow who is very good at analog, has tons of experience, but he just couldn't fathom why I was f**king around with analog for synths. "Everything is digital now!" he says!

He's technically very right, but he's also wrong in that he is not aware of how many people like to design new things with "antique" technology.

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Re: electronotes/musical engineer's handbook/pcc pdfs

Post by emmaker » Mon Jun 08, 2020 1:52 pm

I think if you look at the documentation as a handbook for circuits it is a bit dated.

If you look at the theory part everything is still valuable. Bernie took a lot of 'generic' electronic theory and did a lot of research on how it applies to electronic music/synths and put that into the documentation.

Jay S.

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Re: electronotes/musical engineer's handbook/pcc pdfs

Post by EATyourGUITAR » Mon Jun 08, 2020 3:15 pm

In my opinion it needs to be owned by a capitalist as a for profit business so that all the people that want to learn can finance the people who want to redraw, edit, publish a much improved digital version. The non-commercial reproduction is like anyone can make it but no one can make it because paper cost money but they license is free. That means people who want to consume it either need to print it out DIY or download from an unofficial source. If there was a non-profit website, it would go out of business.
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Re: electronotes/musical engineer's handbook/pcc pdfs

Post by Whelm » Mon Jun 08, 2020 8:24 pm

meatcliff wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 4:29 am

Some perspective for people not on the SDIY list - Even when he's solicited feedback, he has no interest in other people volunteering their help, learning what is required to digitize electronotes in a practical way, or investing money or effort into this. He wants an instant solution that takes minimal intervention. Any reasonable advice I've seen has been met with a dismissive, and in some cases condescending response. This includes advice from people who have far more experience in modern day archiving and publishing.

From his own site:

"I invite thoughtful comments/ideas. But, pleases, no more comments about OCR, redrawing figures, scanning from salable copies, volunteers, HTML, etc. - - - or anything that requires my time and/or my money). I am interested in what you know – not what you assume or wish for."

Obviously it's his right to refuse help, but he probably shouldn't be asking for it if he doesn't really want to pursue a digital edition himself. I hope that he eventually is interested in working out a deal for someone else to take over his business when he's ready, since demand is still there to justify the investment.

I really can't understand the guy's reasoning. Someone offered to scan the collection on a archival scanner and send the digital files to him for free and Hutchin's dismisses it because of some copyright gobbledigook. He holds the damn copyright, does he not? Is he afraid he's going to sue himself for copyright infringement if someone sends him a digitized copy of his own material? I don't get it. Anyways all the copyright concerns (to the extent that there are any, which i doubt) can be easily circumvented if he wanted to release them into the public domain. Perhaps he simply doesn't want to lose control over something that has been such an important thing in his life. Or perhaps, as he says, he's just worried that people who paid for it will feel "cheated" if others can access it digitally. Hell of a ship to sink on that one.

Oh well.

Since people have mentioned that these references are somewhat dated these days anyways, does anyone have suggestions as to where one can find more relevant information for the modern SDIY enthusiast? Everything seems to come back to Electronotes and Thomas Henry.

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Re: electronotes/musical engineer's handbook/pcc pdfs

Post by meatcliff » Tue Jun 09, 2020 3:19 am

Whelm wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 8:24 pm
I really can't understand the guy's reasoning. Someone offered to scan the collection on a archival scanner and send the digital files to him for free and Hutchin's dismisses it because of some copyright gobbledigook. He holds the damn copyright, does he not? Is he afraid he's going to sue himself for copyright infringement if someone sends him a digitized copy of his own material? I don't get it.
Since the scanner mentioned belongs to a college it creates an issue of staff using campus property for outside commercial work, so there are some potential employee agreement/copyright(?) conerns that raises. The rest is just him complicating it further. Of course the solution to the university outside work issue is just find anyone else with a high speed scanner, or ask the printer to buy the already scanned master copies (which is a service they almost certainly offer), etc.
Last edited by meatcliff on Mon Jun 15, 2020 5:00 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: electronotes/musical engineer's handbook/pcc pdfs

Post by ricko » Tue Jun 09, 2020 5:49 am

The best reason to have a set of Electronotes is to see what has been done in the past, then to create something different, something deserving to be in a new issue.

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Re: electronotes/musical engineer's handbook/pcc pdfs

Post by EATyourGUITAR » Tue Jun 09, 2020 12:08 pm

the modern equivalent is sitting on muffs reading what people are working on now. all the arduino projects from 2005 are right into the bin. the best new synthesizers from 2010 to 2020 are proprietary. I remember Niel would not send me the rest of the schematic for the cesyg lfo because he claimed that Flavio blue lantern had stolen his VCF the day before I emailed him. now Niel is out of business, I am still not the same person as blue lantern, but I never built the LFO because apparently god hates me. maybe people should start dumping schematics before they go out of business. most of the open source projects on the forum are started by younger people asking for help. the older people don't have time or the will to share information generally speaking. with electronotes there was a real financial incentive to produce the magazine.
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Re: electronotes/musical engineer's handbook/pcc pdfs

Post by devinw1 » Tue Jun 09, 2020 12:23 pm

ricko wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 5:49 am
The best reason to have a set of Electronotes is to see what has been done in the past, then to create something different, something deserving to be in a new issue.
I agree. I think the best part part of ENs is it's kind of a microcosm of some of the techniques and little tricks that people were using back in the day to build synths. Don't so much as look at the actual parts, because a lot of them have way better replacements available, and don't copy the designs straight up, because there may very well be better ways to do it. But, as an overall source of inspiration from a very high level, they seem useful.

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Re: electronotes/musical engineer's handbook/pcc pdfs

Post by loki » Tue Jun 09, 2020 12:38 pm

EATyourGUITAR wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 12:08 pm
...with electronotes there was a real financial incentive to produce the magazine.
As someone who subscribed from the early days on, no, Bernie did it as a labor of love. He was lucky to break even! I entirely understand his frustration and reluctance to sink more time and money into something that he has spent most of his free time on through his entire adult life.

On the issue of copyright, Bernie makes a big mistake. He says: (1) I own the intellectual property. No, he does not! He owns a considerable amount of it but the newsletter always contained submissions from the readers. Bernie never compensated them and they own the copyright to their individual submissions. Trying to clear the rights to use that material would be a huge task.

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Re: electronotes/musical engineer's handbook/pcc pdfs

Post by mskala » Tue Jun 09, 2020 1:38 pm

That's not really how copyright works, but there's no point arguing about the copyright situation because all that counts is Hutchins's understanding of the copyright situation. That's what determines what he will do or will allow others to do; it's not going to be changed by a discussion here; and it is not closely connected to the legal realities of the case.

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Re: electronotes/musical engineer's handbook/pcc pdfs

Post by KSS » Tue Jun 09, 2020 3:22 pm

loki is correct. It's amazing how many posts here make conclusions based on personal desires and hearsay.

@EYG: Nearly everything in your reply is incorrect. Cesyg is still in business. Old people -like me- spend hours each day helping young and old! here on MW. And as loki said, Electronotes was never, and still isn't, a project driven by financial reward.

Finally I'll say that any number of the people involved in synths have their own peculiarities. They're Human with all the pecadillos, foibles and frailties that includes. Decisions aren't always made for reasons that make sense to anyone but the person making the decision. I can't count how many times I've watched creators shoot themselves in the foot. <-- From my perspective. Maddening, frustrating, sometimes sad.

Read some of the non-synth links on the electronotes site to see the non-synth human side of Bernie.

Whie I disagree with mskala's saying that's not how copyright works -because in the USA, and with Electronotes specifically, it does- I am in complete agreement with him that Bernie's understanding and choice here is all that eventually matters.

I'd bet PDFs of all the Electronotes will start appearing less than a year after Mr. Hutchins is gone. Seen it happen too many times already not to expect it will happen again. Just like all the 'open source' projects that get closed up to greater or lesser degree once the value of open sourcing has been realized.

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Re: electronotes/musical engineer's handbook/pcc pdfs

Post by Repeater » Tue Jun 09, 2020 5:02 pm

All non-essential businesses in NY state were ordered to close temporarily due to COVID-19. Every indication is that EN will be back up and taking orders once Bernie is ready and able to do it.

Imagine if a stranger called you unsolicited and suggested that you need help running your 48 year old business and/or fantasized about working on your preservation project while you're still alive. I'm not surprised he's told people to fuck off.

If public access to and preservation of Bernie's work matters to you, maybe consider contacting him and saying that his work matters to you and that you'd love to see it preserved forever in whatever way he thinks is appropriate.

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Re: electronotes/musical engineer's handbook/pcc pdfs

Post by mskala » Tue Jun 09, 2020 6:01 pm

KSS wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 3:22 pm
Whie I disagree with mskala's saying that's not how copyright works -because in the USA, and with Electronotes specifically, it does- I am in complete agreement with him that Bernie's understanding and choice here is all that eventually matters.
Not that it matters, but I think there's a misunderstanding of what I meant by "that" when I said "that's not how copyright works." I think Bernie Hutchins does own the copyright to Electronotes because he wrote it. The suggestion from loki in this thread that people who contributed ideas also own a copyright to Electronotes is not how copyright works; copyright applies to the words, not the ideas. If there were works from other people reproduced verbatim in Electronotes those might be an exception, but I don't think there are really a lot of such, and they're not the real issue here. The claim by Bernie Hutchins that scanning Electronotes would cause the owner of the scanner to own the copyright is also not how copyright works; copyright comes from creation, not format conversion. And that claim is one of the significant obstacles to the possibility of Electronotes being scanned.

Nobody's going to change their beliefs about this in response to anything I say, nor any authorities I might cite.

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