Jürgen Haible Krautrock phaser BUILD THREAD

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kagey3001
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Re: Jürgen Haible Krautrock phaser BUILD THREAD

Post by kagey3001 » Sun Mar 08, 2020 8:54 am

I am hoping a kind soul can give me some pointers as to why my phaser is not behaving correctly. I have only just completed building this, but basically everything seems to be working except I get no phasing. :hmm: at all :despair:
The lamps are all seemingly working correctly, bypass is working in that it switches led on / off, but sound is untouched. And i hear no change in volume when hitting bypass.
I can turn the phasing/amplitude pot and see the lamps change in brightness. The 3rd lamp shines correctly.
So my question is where is the most likely place i need to debug here? I'm not a master in any way shape or form, just starting on this as a hobby, but hoping to learn as much as i can. I'm thinking maybe the relay is not functioning correctly, its a finder 30.22.9.12, this is what i will look to replace next.
I've replaced the 4007, just in case that was anything, but no change.
I've wondered through lots of the old forum posts and picked up some good pointers along the way, but this has me puzzled.

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hamildad
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Re: Jürgen Haible Krautrock phaser BUILD THREAD

Post by hamildad » Sun Mar 08, 2020 11:51 am

I have the same issue..

Let me know what you find out.

:despair:
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Re: Jürgen Haible Krautrock phaser BUILD THREAD

Post by LED-man » Sun Mar 08, 2020 12:55 pm

I built around 10 Krautrock phasers,
Failures was mostly from wrong wiring.
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Re: Jürgen Haible Krautrock phaser BUILD THREAD

Post by hamildad » Mon Apr 13, 2020 3:25 pm

Right, desperate to put my DIY cupboard of shame to bed.. onto fixing the 90% working Phaser pedal.

seems to work but doesnt do any actual phasing, the relay clicks and seems to be working, I havent checked the voltage going form the LDRs but would I suppose be wise to chck they are all plumbed in...

anything else to check except for the wiring?

I agree with LEDmans thoughts it might be the wiring so attached some photos for wiser heads than mine to take a look. will try to write out the wiring to make more sense tomorrow when I have time.

IMG_20200413_210052.jpg
IMG_20200413_210326.jpg
IMG_20200413_210406.jpg
:hmm: :hmm: :despair: :despair:
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My Synth Instagram here * My Synth videos here
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External PSUs and DC jacks are the hallmarks of toys. - Graham Hinton.
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I am one of the "tiny fraction of a percentage of oversensitive idiots" who feels the name of this site sends the wrong message.
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This is primarily for melody and historical educational purposes - Analogue Music

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soup
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Re: Jürgen Haible Krautrock phaser BUILD THREAD

Post by soup » Mon Apr 13, 2020 9:37 pm

Are you getting +/- 15V at the MOTM footprint?
Are you covering up the ldr's and bulb's with something?

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Re: Jürgen Haible Krautrock phaser BUILD THREAD

Post by hamildad » Tue Apr 14, 2020 5:22 am

soup wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 9:37 pm
Are you getting +/- 15V at the MOTM footprint?
Are you covering up the ldr's and bulb's with something?
Using the Yamaha PSU, so think there should be no problems.

And yes covering up the bulbs, using some sealed bicycle tire as suggested upthread.
My Synth Instagram here * My Synth videos here
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External PSUs and DC jacks are the hallmarks of toys. - Graham Hinton.
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I am one of the "tiny fraction of a percentage of oversensitive idiots" who feels the name of this site sends the wrong message.
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soup
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Re: Jürgen Haible Krautrock phaser BUILD THREAD

Post by soup » Tue Apr 14, 2020 11:34 am

I can't tell if both the AC ins are hooked up, are you using an oversized plug? I would check that you're getting +/-15V because if you only have the positive rail you will get behavior similar to what you're describing.

Also the relay wants a momentary switch, I mistakenly used a toggle switch at first and don't think I could get it to work.

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Re: Jürgen Haible Krautrock phaser BUILD THREAD

Post by hamildad » Wed Apr 15, 2020 10:14 am

got a momentary switch on the toggle and its giving a nice click with the relay whebn used.

I think I might be seeing some power issues as I have had a fuse blow regularly but looking at it, it seems to only be one if the channels. so will investigate.

Using a Yamaha PA20 PSU which I also use for my 1601 sequencer, so I know its working but will check the wiring from PSU onto PCB...

and I am using the 2x 18V inputs at the top of the PCB....

I'm on my last set of fuses so might have to wait until I can get more if I blow these ones.....
My Synth Instagram here * My Synth videos here
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External PSUs and DC jacks are the hallmarks of toys. - Graham Hinton.
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I am one of the "tiny fraction of a percentage of oversensitive idiots" who feels the name of this site sends the wrong message.
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This is primarily for melody and historical educational purposes - Analogue Music

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Re: Jürgen Haible Krautrock phaser BUILD THREAD

Post by hamildad » Sat Apr 18, 2020 7:45 am

rolled up sleeves and refused to let this go back onto the 'Shelf of Shame'.

put in the correct fuses and it stays on, reflowed as much as possible, and cleaned up the PCB using fluxoff..... but doesn't oscillate or phase...

input and output works, passes output when switched to bypass (LED off) and unpowered.
  • switched to active (led on)
    phasing/amplitude pot changes the bulbs brightness manually, and bulb & display lamp and 180 out of phase.
    resonance dial affects volume using a screwdriver to move, (didn't want resonance pot on unit)
    Feedback seems to affect volume lightly, but not much.
    measuring the voltage at the MOTM input, I am getting 15.3V and -15V so all good there...
    checked the bournes pots and all correct (3x lin 1x Log). wiring to PCB is 3-2-1 (pot) = O O O on the PCB (component side facing)
    jumpered where I think I need to jumper, and amount is jumpered across O X X on the 3 pin MTA pins.
not sure how to measure the LDRs, but bulbs are all lighting up fine ( albeit with manual control on phasing pot)

think I fixed the oscillation issue previously by changing the wiring somewhere but cant remember where...

at a loss now, as everything looks ok... :bang:

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Re: Jürgen Haible Krautrock phaser BUILD THREAD

Post by Luka » Sun Apr 19, 2020 6:43 am

make sure you cover the lamps and ldrs when testing so they are not effected by the light in the room

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Re: Jürgen Haible Krautrock phaser BUILD THREAD

Post by hamildad » Sun Apr 19, 2020 9:30 am

Luka wrote:
Sun Apr 19, 2020 6:43 am
make sure you cover the lamps and ldrs when testing so they are not effected by the light in the room
first thing i tried, 15 months ago. wish it was that simple...

anyone got any other ideas?

:help:
My Synth Instagram here * My Synth videos here
-
External PSUs and DC jacks are the hallmarks of toys. - Graham Hinton.
-
I am one of the "tiny fraction of a percentage of oversensitive idiots" who feels the name of this site sends the wrong message.
-
This is primarily for melody and historical educational purposes - Analogue Music

kagey3001
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Re: Jürgen Haible Krautrock phaser BUILD THREAD

Post by kagey3001 » Mon Apr 20, 2020 12:58 pm

Mine is still in a similar state as yours. I wonder, do your lamps actually flash or pulse and look like the lfo is affecting them?
I know it sounds daft, but I did hear some phasing on mine only in manual mode, but only when i connected a set of headphones to the l or right output.
I'm inclined to get mine out again and see how it is behaving. For what its worth, i am using a single 18v power supply only and using a single 500ma fuse. I, too, went through a lot of fuses along the way..

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Re: Jürgen Haible Krautrock phaser BUILD THREAD

Post by hamildad » Tue Apr 21, 2020 4:38 am

kagey3001 wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 12:58 pm
Mine is still in a similar state as yours.
bugger, I was hoping you had some sort of magic fix....

I'll try to put in a voltage into the Manual input and see if I can get it to phase via manual control.

I did get lamps to pulse. https://www.instagram.com/p/BjaOBWEgfv1/ but I cannot remember, how, I think it was inverting the wiring to the modulation input.

maybe we can both research and try to find the fix.... sounds like its the same issue.

Bonne Chance!
My Synth Instagram here * My Synth videos here
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External PSUs and DC jacks are the hallmarks of toys. - Graham Hinton.
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I am one of the "tiny fraction of a percentage of oversensitive idiots" who feels the name of this site sends the wrong message.
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Davesax1965
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Re: Jürgen Haible Krautrock phaser BUILD THREAD

Post by Davesax1965 » Fri May 08, 2020 3:22 am

Sorry to bump an old thread, but, with many thanks to Tonewheels here, I find myself in possession of a kit he wasn't going to use.

Here's some pictures of my build so far. I'm just finishing the wiring off, after I find a suitable rotary switch.

The case is a Hammond 1441 with hand made wooden sides (kipper crate specials, nothing fancy.) Unfortunately, the depth of the PCB, standoff, lamps, holders and bulbs - with pots on top - meant I had to go for a 3" depth case, and this meant going for a huge Hammond enclosure to get the depth. Never mind, eh ?

The case is slightly angled backwards for comfort (think "Korg MS-20") and power is provided by a Yamaha PA-20 PSU @960ma through a three pin GX16 aircraft connector.
Last edited by Davesax1965 on Fri May 08, 2020 3:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Davesax1965
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Re: Jürgen Haible Krautrock phaser BUILD THREAD

Post by Davesax1965 » Fri May 08, 2020 3:53 am

Aha, right, sorry, just worked out how to use the image inserter.

Case thus.
IMG_20200501_154834.jpg
aaand again.
IMG_20200501_154823.jpg
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Re: Jürgen Haible Krautrock phaser BUILD THREAD

Post by Davesax1965 » Fri May 08, 2020 3:54 am

Bit more detail here. Note the wonkily drilled jack, inevitable with my cack hands. ;-)
IMG_20200501_162638.jpg
IMG_20200501_162708.jpg
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Re: Jürgen Haible Krautrock phaser BUILD THREAD

Post by Davesax1965 » Fri May 08, 2020 4:00 am

An idea I had (still at the experimental stage) was to do some vinyl wrap graphics a la Dreadbox.

Still working out the finalised case hardware (do I use a rotary or a switch for the Stage selector ? ) so this is all experimental at the moment.

Took a photo of the case. Opened Photoshop and resized it to the correct dimensions. Reduced the transparency to about 30 percent to act as a ghost image / tracing layer. Designed the graphics in layers over the top, saved as layered PSD. Two versions, one "straight" and one "funky". I'm going to try and get these printed at my local "vinyl shop window graphics" store and see how they come out. If so, just stick on.

Works for Dreadbox (got two Dreadbox synths) so I can't see it not working for me. ;-) £25 for an experiment, anyway. Here's the mockups.
mockup.jpg
mockup1.jpg
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Davesax1965
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Re: Jürgen Haible Krautrock phaser BUILD THREAD

Post by Davesax1965 » Fri May 08, 2020 4:03 am

So the graphics essentially will look like this before printing. Sort of. To be revised.
frontbigfinal.jpg
Because of the large blank space at the bottom left of the case, I designed a logo to cover my embarassment.
phaserlogo.png
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Re: Jürgen Haible Krautrock phaser BUILD THREAD

Post by Davesax1965 » Fri May 08, 2020 4:06 am

The PCB, power inlet, jacks and fuse (which I don't really need) are screwed to the back plate of the Hammond enclosure. Incidentally, on the 1441 Hammond series of enclosures, you have to order the backplates separately. They have 4x M3 screws holding them on and these strip the case threads after you've tightened them once. Cheers, Hammond.
IMG_20200506_164635.jpg
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Re: Jürgen Haible Krautrock phaser BUILD THREAD

Post by Davesax1965 » Fri May 08, 2020 4:08 am

Used some vintage Arrow switches and Bakelite knobs, by the way. I had a Fender jewel lamp assembly lying around. You can customise them by butchering an E10 lamp holder and bulb to fit, but the standard #47 Fender bulbs are 6.3v. The E10s are 7v, so just stick a diode in there and there's an 0.6v voltage drop. Near enough.

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Re: Jürgen Haible Krautrock phaser BUILD THREAD

Post by Davesax1965 » Fri May 08, 2020 4:11 am

Here's the PSU, by the way. Looking at it, I could have installed something in the case. I didn't want to go down the MOTM route, so I built the complete on board regulator / rectifier setup.

Awaiting some parts, which have been delayed due to the post office being all over the place at the moment (during lockdown) but !! Should be finished in a couple of weekends. The kit itself is easy, the wiring is a bit of a bugger to work out due to the lack of clear instructions. Hopefully this'll all work and work well. ;-)
IMG_20200416_094405.jpg
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Re: Jürgen Haible Krautrock phaser BUILD THREAD

Post by Davesax1965 » Fri May 08, 2020 7:28 am

PS Just to reply to the thread above where the phaser "is not phasing". (Hamildad's post)

Looking at the AC wiring: may be wrong.

PLEASE CHECK THIS BEFORE CONTINUING or your phaser will fry.

If you're using a PA-20 transformer, as above, refer to the schematic.
psu.png
This shows that the PSU has three outputs. There are two 18v ones and one 0v one. Use a voltmeter / multimeter and test which they are. In the schematic above, you need to connect the 18v feeds to pins 1 and 5 of the connector and the 0v has to be split and connected to pins 2 and 4.

Do this with the connector disconnected from the board. Switch on the PSU. Test between the pins with a multimeter. You should get the following voltages.

Pins 1 and 5 - 36v
Pins 1 and 2 - 18v
Pins 4 and 5 - 18v
pins 2 and 4 - 0v

If that's the case, the AC is connected correctly and you can (at your own risk) connect the power and try again. Please note I'm not 100% sure what power supply you're using, but you seem to have an 18v feed unconnected. Make sure you understand the concept before continuing as I'm not taking responsibility for any little fires or magic smoke you might have. ;-)
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Re: Jürgen Haible Krautrock phaser BUILD THREAD

Post by Davesax1965 » Fri May 08, 2020 7:43 am

PS the above setup works - should work, I've yet to test it - if you have not gone down the MOTM route for power with this.

Basically, you need those voltages at the pins indicated.

If you're tempted to add another fuse between the PSU and the main board - don't. This is producing two separate 18v feeds, and you'd have to fuse both feeds. (otherwise on 18v line would go down and one would probably remain up, if just using one fuse between PSU and PCB).

The fuse in the PSU will be sufficient.

This isn't referring to the fuses on the PCB, by the way - you still need both of those. The 200ma fuses on the PCB are sufficient if you have the AC wired up correctly, and the fact that fuses are blowing suggests to me that it isn't and only one 18v feed is actually connected up.

So, to summarise - test for pin out voltages as above with the connector unplugged, if OK, 200ma fuses on the PCB - slow blow ones - plug the connector into the PCB after ensuring all is OK and you know what you're doing.

Power on, if there's a little fire, sorry, don't blame me. ;-)

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Re: Jürgen Haible Krautrock phaser BUILD THREAD

Post by hamildad » Sun May 10, 2020 3:34 pm

thanks for the notes Davesax1965

I checked the voltages whilst powered and when powering via a Yamaha PSU, I get what seems to be good readings coming from the MOTM power part of the PCB. I have left the unit on for a few minutes and all seems well.

I think my fuse issues were more about bad handling of the PCB, nothing has shorted in a long while... So I am cautiously optimistic that the power is ok.

I did run a ground wire to the other side of the power input so there are seperate (0v) to pins 2&4. didnt make any difference but then didn't hurt either.

I did more messing around and one thing that looks odd is the wiring to the rate socket.. Can someone show me the correct wiring and socket for this, I am using a TRRS socket and think I have the wiring weird.

any other things to try? would really like this project done and dusted... its so close but doesn't seem to be oscillating or phasing, so its at the moment just a very complicated reading light for a mouse.
My Synth Instagram here * My Synth videos here
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External PSUs and DC jacks are the hallmarks of toys. - Graham Hinton.
-
I am one of the "tiny fraction of a percentage of oversensitive idiots" who feels the name of this site sends the wrong message.
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This is primarily for melody and historical educational purposes - Analogue Music

kagey3001
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Re: Jürgen Haible Krautrock phaser BUILD THREAD

Post by kagey3001 » Mon May 18, 2020 2:06 pm

After going through the PCB with a magnifying glass, i noticed my BC560 was badly soldered, so replaced that and tidied up other soldering areas and lo and behold the lights are now pulsing and I do have phasing, albeit with different LDR's, the ones i am using are not the correct ones, but they do at least work now, One day, perhaps i will find the correct LDR's and hear how it is supposed to be heard, but i am happy that it is finally working and I do have some phasing at least.
Only odd thing is that some instruments sound lovely and some sound terrible.
My JP08 though it sounds awesome, Model D and Juno 106 just make horrible feedback type noises depending on the rate of phasing.

I am not using anything into my rate connector, i am just leaving that open

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