[AVAILABLE] TTSH V4 Build Thread

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Kevin Mitchell

Re: [AVAILABLE] TTSH V4 Build Thread

Post by Kevin Mitchell » Tue Dec 22, 2020 4:37 pm

synthcube wrote:
Tue Dec 22, 2020 3:09 pm
We were convinced by some research and smart people that the dual wiper type are superior to the machine pin type for the ICs we use in all of our kits.
Please entertain us with your research. I'm curious about how your consensus is different from any other that I have heard in my 7 years of tinkering. Square block into a square hole, right?

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Re: [AVAILABLE] TTSH V4 Build Thread

Post by synthcube » Tue Dec 22, 2020 4:39 pm

bemerritt wrote:
Tue Dec 22, 2020 4:09 pm
Ok, I'll follow up in an email, but surely you can see how the description of the product misrepresents what was sold? It's not really about opinion on what is best.

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We are happy to exchange the sockets-- we stock both types here-- please send us an email and we will be happy to arrange that!
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Re: [AVAILABLE] TTSH V4 Build Thread

Post by synthcube » Tue Dec 22, 2020 4:40 pm

Kevin Mitchell wrote:
Tue Dec 22, 2020 4:37 pm
synthcube wrote:
Tue Dec 22, 2020 3:09 pm
We were convinced by some research and smart people that the dual wiper type are superior to the machine pin type for the ICs we use in all of our kits.
Please entertain us with your research. I'm curious about how your consensus is different from any other that I have heard in my 7 years of tinkering. Square block into a square hole, right?
We won't use this thread to replay all that dialogue, its elsewhere in the forum-- thanks
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Re: [AVAILABLE] TTSH V4 Build Thread

Post by KSS » Tue Dec 22, 2020 6:00 pm

bemerritt wrote:
Tue Dec 22, 2020 4:09 pm
Ok, I'll follow up in an email, but surely you can see how the description of the product misrepresents what was sold? It's not really about opinion on what is best.
I see and understand your position. You would rather have the sockets you believe are better, even though the ones you were shipped will give you much better service now and long into the future. Or maybe it's just the principle, as you've correctly laid out. I don't know if Synthcube has the general disclaimer on their website -they should- which says that parts may be upgraded when possible or necessary. Something along the lines of We reserve the right to offer and provide alternative components when necessary or prudent to ship only the best kits and finished units possible. All our kits come with the same warranty and this possible part substitution has no effect on our committment to stand behind what we sell.

That's how a suppliers 'opinion' is usually handled to cover those in your position. It's actually very important that the supplier keeps looking to optimize their offering. But I understand that's not your claimed issue here.

At any rate, what you recieved is *far* better than what you want or thought you were going to get. Even though you've said -and shown- that's not your point.

I only have 45+ years in this compared to Kevin Mitchell's seven. Since he has such a short time experience in synths, it makes sense that he'd have heard more about the recently popular -but still incorrect- cargo cult belief that machined pins are better. Even though that's not your reason to wish for the downrade of MP sockets to replace those you received.

Edit: In the interest of accuracy, John Blacet used the type sockets you received for the entire life of Blacet. He knew the truth, as does Graham Hinton, who said so in at least two threads here. Synthcube actually changed to the MP types by popularity and when presented with more facts and experience, have gone back to What John Blacet himself knew was better and therefore shipped with all his kits. I remember John offering kits in the early 70's, so again a little more experience than Kevin Mitchells seven years.

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Re: [AVAILABLE] TTSH V4 Build Thread

Post by bemerritt » Tue Dec 22, 2020 6:19 pm

Thank you for the input. While I think we can do a little better than dick measuring around here, it does make me wonder how I perceived one was better than the other. I'll have to go re-evaluate it.

I'll have to disagree with you on as a supplier taking the latitude to "upgrade" parts. Especially when it's the more expensive one being substituted with a cheaper one. Synthcube offered to make it right which is very appreciated and does not got without notice.

So at this point its just a PSA to anyone ordering TTSH parts from Synthcube, what pin headers are included.

Kevin Mitchell

Re: [AVAILABLE] TTSH V4 Build Thread

Post by Kevin Mitchell » Tue Dec 22, 2020 6:29 pm

Instead of being an ass you could simply explain or direct me to the facts.

Thanks.

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Re: [AVAILABLE] TTSH V4 Build Thread

Post by KSS » Tue Dec 22, 2020 6:32 pm

bemerritt wrote:
Tue Dec 22, 2020 6:19 pm
While I think we can do a little better than dick measuring around here,
I agree. I've seen it too many times with KM and replied in kind. Glad you can see it for what it is. I posted a long reply in anoher thread which was at least partial reason for the change, and so felt compelled to support SC against KMs dick-wagging 'entertain us' and 'seven years' taunt.

Kevin Mitchell

Re: [AVAILABLE] TTSH V4 Build Thread

Post by Kevin Mitchell » Tue Dec 22, 2020 6:34 pm

Excuse me?

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Re: [AVAILABLE] TTSH V4 Build Thread

Post by KSS » Tue Dec 22, 2020 6:37 pm


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Re: [AVAILABLE] TTSH V4 Build Thread

Post by devinw1 » Tue Dec 22, 2020 6:42 pm

I would venture to guess maybe the *perceived* notion that machine pin sockets are better than dual wipes are that (the decent ones) are generally more expensive than the dual wipe kind and are made by companies like Mill-Max that do a lot of business in the defense and aerospace industry.

In reality for what we are doing here in SDIY though, the flat dual wipe sockets have indeed proved themselves to be very very good and suited for basically all of the types of ICs that would be used in SDIY.

All that being said: the TYPE of the socket is only one half of the issue. The quality of the actual socket is the other. I have seen some pretty shoddy dual wipe sockets (some bagged ones that I've bought at Fry's. Manufacturer...unkonwn), as well as some pretty awful machine pin ones (purchased from Tayda). So, stick to known manufacturers for sure (3M, Amphenol, TE...)

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Re: [AVAILABLE] TTSH V4 Build Thread

Post by devinw1 » Tue Dec 22, 2020 6:50 pm

I'm also going to add that the *good* machine pin DIP sockets (ie Mill-Max) are actually designed to be able to successfully use rectangular pin ICs. It shows the acceptance range of rectangular and round legs right on their datasheets. Point being, it's not a matter of machine pin sockets being completely unacceptable. It's just that the dual wipe ones are generally cheaper and work great, so why use anything else, really? IMO. TLDR; just get a good dual wipe socket and live happy. Or solder your ICs. :D
dip.png
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Kevin Mitchell

Re: [AVAILABLE] TTSH V4 Build Thread

Post by Kevin Mitchell » Tue Dec 22, 2020 6:51 pm

Holding my experience agaist me is a poor and immature way to get your point across. In my sad little time of 7 years, those cheap sockets are the only ones that have given me problem.

Your insults are uncalled for. And if thats welcome in this forum, I want nothing to do with it.

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Re: [AVAILABLE] TTSH V4 Build Thread

Post by KSS » Tue Dec 22, 2020 6:56 pm

Kevin Mitchell wrote:
Tue Dec 22, 2020 6:51 pm
Holding my experience agaist me is a poor and immature way to get your point across. In my sad little time of 7 years, those cheap sockets are the only ones that have given me problem.

Your insults are uncalled for. And if thats welcome in this forum, I want nothing to do with it.
You want us to ignore that you started this with your "entertain us" comment and that you tried to use your 7 years as reason to believe your position!

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Re: [AVAILABLE] TTSH V4 Build Thread

Post by bemerritt » Tue Dec 22, 2020 7:03 pm

devinw1 wrote:
Tue Dec 22, 2020 6:42 pm
I would venture to guess maybe the *perceived* notion that machine pin sockets are better than dual wipes are that (the decent ones) are generally more expensive than the dual wipe kind and are made by companies like Mill-Max that do a lot of business in the defense and aerospace industry.

In reality for what we are doing here in SDIY though, the flat dual wipe sockets have indeed proved themselves to be very very good and suited for basically all of the types of ICs that would be used in SDIY.

All that being said: the TYPE of the socket is only one half of the issue. The quality of the actual socket is the other. I have seen some pretty shoddy dual wipe sockets (some bagged ones that I've bought at Fry's. Manufacturer...unkonwn), as well as some pretty awful machine pin ones (purchased from Tayda). So, stick to known manufacturers for sure (3M, Amphenol, TE...)
I think you nailed it with the manufacture comment. I'm sure a lot of really cheap wiper styles exist that have given people negative opinions of them and just spring for the perceived deluxe version. While this will work, it seems another approach is making sure you get the best quality dual wipe kind. Thanks for the input.

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Re: [AVAILABLE] TTSH V4 Build Thread

Post by KSS » Tue Dec 22, 2020 7:06 pm

devinw1 wrote:
Tue Dec 22, 2020 6:50 pm
I'm also going to add that the *good* machine pin DIP sockets (ie Mill-Max) are actually designed to be able to successfully use rectangular pin ICs. It shows the acceptance range of rectangular and round legs right on their datasheets.
That's a result of marketing, not science. As I wrote in the linked thread, the mfrs are not unaware of the crago cult and the MP's DO mash together in the FIRST few insertions. Best not to confuse that with the physics and material science involved. Can be used is not the same as should be used or good to use.
Point being, it's not a matter of machine pin sockets being completely unacceptable. It's just that the dual wipe ones are generally cheaper and work great, so why use anything else, really? IMO. TLDR; just get a good dual wipe socket and live happy. Or solder your ICs. :D
There's more to it. Hopefully the provided link and posts there will lead to further exposure of the cargo cult, reason behind it, and overall lead back to a place where the correct parts are used together.

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Re: [AVAILABLE] TTSH V4 Build Thread

Post by devinw1 » Wed Dec 23, 2020 12:25 am

Very interesting. That totally makes sense that the machined pin ones would be really bad news to pull a chip out and put it back in. I envision them biting into the corners of the legs by the barb structure in there and deforming the metal, thus making a shittier contact the 2nd time. Not to mention thermal cycling causing issues.

Really, it's kind of lame that the mfgs even claim they work with square pins, or at least don't have some more information readily available on their limitations. But, as you said...marketing.

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Re: [AVAILABLE] TTSH V4 Build Thread

Post by fallout » Wed Dec 23, 2020 9:38 am

Hi folks! Quick question. Would anyone happen to know the approx. current draw of a TTSH v4 with all of the common mods (booster, VCO sync, wave shapers)? I searched and got some info but still fell short. Thanks!

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Re: [AVAILABLE] TTSH V4 Build Thread

Post by LED-man » Wed Dec 23, 2020 2:48 pm

between 300-400mA per rail.
Depends on the speaker amp usage too.
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Re: [AVAILABLE] TTSH V4 Build Thread

Post by DubbelVla » Fri Dec 25, 2020 5:47 am

Kevin MItchell has left the building... :lol:

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Re: [AVAILABLE] TTSH V4 Build Thread

Post by resynthesize » Wed Jan 13, 2021 12:48 am

Hey everyone, I'm hoping some more experienced hands can help out with some troubleshooting. I just finished up my TTSH - and checkout was going well until I hit the envelope section. I'm observing the following behavior with the ADSR envelope (note that I am testing by routing the internal clock with a 50% duty cycle to the ADSR via the switch, from what I understand this sends the clock to both gate and trigger input)

ADSR:

1) With all sliders down, the ADSR output follows the clock voltage (note: the blue trace is the clock signal, yellow is ADSR out)
DS1Z_QuickPrint7.png
2) With the attack slider halfway up, the attack is still instantaneous but the decay segment decays from 10v to 5v while the gate is high. When the gate goes low, the voltage drops to 0v.
DS1Z_QuickPrint9.png
Increasing the attack slider reduces the voltage drop during the gate. At max attack, the voltage drops from 10v to about 9v over the decay segment.
DS1Z_QuickPrint8.png
3) The decay and sustain sliders have no apparent change to the output while the attack and release sliders are down

4) The release slider appears to be working, if the slider is slightly above minumum i see a sharp exponential envelope. Increasing to max shows a more gradual envelope with the release voltage dropping until the gate goes high again.
DS1Z_QuickPrint11.png
5) However, if the attack slider and release slider are both halfway up, it looks like the release actually causes the voltage to rise instead of fall during when the gate goes low.
DS1Z_QuickPrint10.png
6) If I do not route clock to the ADSR envelope, the release slider acts as a fixed voltage offset (producing a steady 6.2v at maximum). Is this normal?

AR:

1) At powerup and with no clock, the ar output is 0v. each push of the manual gate button increases the voltage, and it just stays there. After about 4 pushes, it hangs out at the top of the rail, a little shy of 15v. In any case, it never goes back down, regardless of slider position.

2) If I instead feed it the internal clock, it jumps to 15v on the first clock signal and stays there.

So far I've just done a thorough visual inspection of components for solder bridges, reversed diodes and electro caps, as well as proper placement and values of transistors. I actually cannot find a good image of an unpopulated envelope section to check resistor values against, anyone have one?

I've attached a photo of the populated EG board. Any and all tips are appreciated!
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Re: [AVAILABLE] TTSH V4 Build Thread

Post by fallout » Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:20 am

It looks like you have a reversed diode to the right of the LM301 at the top.

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Re: [AVAILABLE] TTSH V4 Build Thread

Post by resynthesize » Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:51 am

fallout wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:20 am
It looks like you have a reversed diode to the right of the LM301 at the top.
:doh: how did i not see that?! I’ll fix after work today and report back. thank you!

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Re: [AVAILABLE] TTSH V4 Build Thread

Post by bemerritt » Wed Jan 13, 2021 5:15 pm

Hunting down some remaining parts, first up is the LM301AN. Is there anyone stateside that has these? Or am i destined for a chinese seller on ebay?

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Re: [AVAILABLE] TTSH V4 Build Thread

Post by synthcube » Wed Jan 13, 2021 5:17 pm

we have them and if we can help, feel free to contact via PM or email
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Re: [AVAILABLE] TTSH V4 Build Thread

Post by ebfx » Wed Jan 13, 2021 7:23 pm

resynthesize wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:51 am
fallout wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:20 am
It looks like you have a reversed diode to the right of the LM301 at the top.
:doh: how did i not see that?! I’ll fix after work today and report back. thank you!
I'm curious to know if this solves your problem. The diode in question is part of the ADSR circuit so I wouldn't expect much effect on the AR operation.

I've been trying to track down a similar problem with my v4 build for a few nights now. After reviewing the v3 schematics and spending a few nights probing my board, I narrowed the problem down to the 2N5460 (Q4) in the ADSR section. I pulled Q4 from the board and put it in my (admittedly very cheap) transistor checker and it came back as a BJT instead of a JFET. So, I replaced both 2N5460's in the ADSR/AR section and everything started working as expected. You may want to check if you have a similar problem.

I checked the markings on the original transistors from Synthcube and they are definitely labeled 5460, so I suspect they either got a bad batch or I was a bit too heavy-handed during installation. My replacement NTE 2N5460's have a different pinout (S-D-G instead of D-S-G) so I had to do a bit of pin swapping on the board, but they read as P-channel JFET's on my tester and now my circuit is working like it is supposed to.

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