[AVAILABLE] TTSH V4 Build Thread

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Re: [AVAILABLE] TTSH V4 Build Thread

Post by sduck » Sun May 24, 2020 8:55 pm

I've been tempted to put a huge orange warning label next to the headphone socket
WARNING! DO NOT PLUG IN ANYTHING WHILE POWERED ON! DO NOT USE A MONO JACK! VERY BAD THINGS WILL HAPPEN! YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!
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Re: [AVAILABLE] TTSH V4 Build Thread

Post by Jim the Oldbie » Sun May 24, 2020 10:40 pm

This headphone jack/ output emitter resistor trauma thing does seem to come around kinda regular.

Since there's no current limiting in the output stages, those 10 ohm resistors should probably be 2W or so, which is impractical given the existing board design.

Maybe we could MacGuyver this thing with a couple of small incandescent lamps in series with the outputs? Some experimentation would be needed to get the right ones in there, and the selection would also vary with the speakers used, but the compression effect might be fun! Plus they could be mounted behind the speaker grill openings for a handy short-circuit indicator/ cool light show. And no more smelly resistors!

(Only half-joking?) :despair:

P.S. I'd try this myself, but my plans for the audio section are headed in a different direction.

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Re: [AVAILABLE] TTSH V4 Build Thread

Post by Wheelbreak » Mon May 25, 2020 11:06 am

We could have a small simple sampler in it as well that plays the audio of the Daleks through the speakers. 8-)

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Re: [AVAILABLE] TTSH V4 Build Thread

Post by amir » Mon May 25, 2020 12:09 pm

KSS wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 7:45 pm
KSS wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 11:22 pm
The square of VCO1 and pulse of VCO2 and 3 is a comparator setup. If it's wildly varying then you should look to see that the main power rails to the board are stable. Measure at the comparator op amp. Then check the reference voltage for the comparator. It also should be stable.
edit: with all the VCO sub-boards in place. /edit
I purchased some new CA3046 and swapped the lm3046 that had come with my rare parts kit. It didn’t fix the vpp issue but it sounds a bit more raw now. Might be in my head though. I put all 3 vco in and measured at the lm301 for the squares. They all have 10.3 vpp saw going in but the output is very jumpy square around 20 something vpp. I tried replacing opamps but still same issue.

The arp2600 service manual says that the diodes on the square output are what keep the signal in the positive. Could these all have fried because of my filter issues that I previously had? I tried diode testing them with a multimeter and they were all floating in the right direction only. Diodes should be simple enough to swap but I don’t want to risk desoldering them if this seems to be a different issue. Any help?

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Re: [AVAILABLE] TTSH V4 Build Thread

Post by amir » Mon May 25, 2020 12:15 pm

Also, I noticed in the manual that it states the noise output should be 10vpp max. I am getting 20vpp there as well. I tried searching to see if this was normal on the ttsh with the transistor swap in that section but couldn’t find a solid answer.

I did the led mod as well today so I could turn them off completely to see if it would have any impact on vcos, as I adjust the brightness I noticed the vmin on my scope changing as well. There is a definite sweet spot where i even get a 11.6vpp out of the square. The weird part is that if I turn them completely off, there is a faint hiss that comes out of the ttsh speakers with all mixer sliders down. I am in a super treated room so it might not be noticeable outside the room but it is strange because with the leds even slightly on it goes away. Is this an unrelated issue? Before anyone asks again, the power rails are perfect, I have checked all over the synth!! I am getting perfect 15/-15v without any fluctuations and the led rails are at 15.6/-15.6v, again with no fluctuations. I double checked all over. The only thing I have done with the led section is remove the resistor to be able to turn them completely off and left out the 3 led driver resistors based on old threads on the issue.

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Re: [AVAILABLE] TTSH V4 Build Thread

Post by KSS » Mon May 25, 2020 8:40 pm

I imagine you feel like pulling y9our own hair out at this point amir. Hopefuly all this will be in the past soon.

But If I'm understanding you, all 3 VCO saw outs are clean and steady at 0-10v nominal?

What does your scope show for the level at the bottom of the noise? And for the pulse? That will answer if the diodes are doing their job.
VCO1 is simplest, start there. Pin 2 of A8 should be a clean saw, Easy to measure at pin 6 and R50 -before the diode- and then after at the jack to see what's what. Then check VCO3, A9. Then VCO2, A15.

Unless you used no clean solder, have you cleaned all solder flux residue?
Can you post a photo of one of your VCO PCBs? Front and rear.
As a general rule, FETs are more easily damaged when soldering than 3046's IME.

If you've got a fully treated room, you probably also have means to accurately record before and after to discern whether the new raw is in your head.

I wouldn't call any issue unrelated to another until confirmed, so make all these measurements in both LED hiss and non-hiss mode.

The output of the noise generator itself should be 20v p-p. The noise transistor change might affect this a little, but shouldn't be a major factor. The noise output at the jack should be in the 10v p-p. range.

The single biggest mistake across all SDIY projects is putting the wrong part somewhere. Most often it's a resistor. The 2nd most common SDIY mistake is poor soldering.

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Re: [AVAILABLE] TTSH V4 Build Thread

Post by amir » Tue May 26, 2020 6:45 pm

Haha, I am running out of hair to pull out! Thanks for the help! I’ll have to get some better pictures for you but the boards are clean, no flux residue or anything. If you haven’t seen my other posts here is a brief background... I have been using the synth for close to 3 years now and it has even been on a few of my recent releases. It calibrated perfectly when I originally built it. The vco were rock solid and everything was exactly where it was supposed to be on the scope. Right before all the covid stuff happened, I was in the studio one day using it and suddenly the sound cut out at the filter. Everything else worked. I had been using the post lawsuit filter from the start because I could never get the v3 4012 filter to work. I spent over a month taking the 4012 filter apart and putting it back together and it never worked. During this time I randomly noticed one day that -15v 1u power cap was in backwards, I then decided to recap this entire section (had extras). Not sure how I missed this but the 4012 filter still didn’t work and I still hadn’t received my 4072 filter card replacement parts so I gave up and contacted Patrick because he had told me that he had some extra boards. He ended up only having one pre built v4 4012 board so I bought that off of him and a while later it finally arrived in the mail. I plugged it in and it worked perfectly.

At this point I started to recalibrate the synth and discovered that the vco were looking weird. This wasn’t the case even with that 1u cap backwards. Not even sure how the synth worked so well like that for 3 years!!

Now back to where we were. All the test points you mention with the saw, I have checked and get a 10.3vpp saw. However the saw is not perfectly all positive. Depending on where the led brightness trimmer is, it goes anywhere from -.76v to -.18v vmin as you adjust the brightness trimmer. Fully off and I hear the hiss and it sits around -.76 at the vmin. I don’t think it is a problem with the cards because they are all acting exactly the same. It would be odd that the same exact transistor burned out on all three of them. The connection that all parts of the board share is the ground connection. I feel something somewhere is leaking into the ground rail. The led section shouldn’t be causing issues in any other way.

For the noise section, I am going to have to inspect further. I am wondering if it is a bad tranny somewhere here that’s causing the problem. I double checked everything when I finished the synth years ago but obviously missed a cap. I need to take a closer look in this section as it’s the only one other than the vco that’s giving weird values. There are just so many parts and I even remember looking at Patrick’s pictures and comparing to make sure everything was in the right place 🤦‍♂️.

I would appreciate any other suggestions or ideas, probably not thinking of something obvious. I’ve banged my head against the wall enough with mutable builds to know it’s usually the most obvious thing that causes the issue which is usually why it’s the one that you can’t see.
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Re: [AVAILABLE] TTSH V4 Build Thread

Post by synthcube » Wed May 27, 2020 10:01 am

Jfettig wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 11:17 am
Hi Guys!

I just wanted to take a minute and thank everyone on here for being thoughtful and attentive. This was my first build outside of a couple Eurorack kits, and I am really grateful to this community for existing and being supportive. A super big thanks to Fuzzbass and Synthcube for their organization and dedication, without whom I would never be able to dream of taking on this project. Here are a couple photos of my finished product which I am beyond pleased with.

Image

Image

Image
really beautiful!! congratulations and thinks for sharing the pics!
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Re: [AVAILABLE] TTSH V4 Build Thread

Post by KSS » Wed May 27, 2020 12:55 pm

amir, Thank you for the photos and background re-post. Wanted to see general soldering quality. Mostly looks okay, a few maybe's but hard to tell as could be photo or lighting artifacts.

First and foremost, we're in the V4 thread. Is yours V4?

Next let's never use "post lawsuit" to describe a 4072. It prolongs a false and misleading narrative. It also takes longer to type.

worked for years and then just stopped. Noise issues and interactions since. the very first thing that comes to mind and the reason for asking which Version, is the jack-metal-on-top-of-traces thing. Can you confirm that this is *not* a possible issue for *every* jack location?

Next, just take the LEDs completely out of the equation. Desolder their powering component if you have to. You've got to fight one battle at a time if you can.

I'm going to assume that if there were some kind of correlating event that happened when the filter quit, you'd have told us. Like lightning storm, or new refrigerator, new gear on the same circuit, etc. What else, if anything, was going on that could have affected power to your TTSH when thefilter quit. I'm going to assume nothng, but *you* should try to remember anything that may pertain.

The backwards power cap is not likely to be an issue unless it was the decoupling cap for the filter? Electrolytics have performed backwards for long periods of time before. It's not a wholly unique thing.

It wouldn't be unusual for three identical circuits faced with the same identical environmental situation, might all fail in the same identical way. So i wouldn't completely discount the VCO's only due to there being three of them. But they're easy to test.

Before that, I want you to disable the noise section. V1 TTSH -and real 2600's- really were better for this kind of thing. butr let's take any possible noise issue out of the overall equation. One battle at a time..

Pull the filter too.

Let's concentrate on the JACKS shorting through solder mask first. And then after that's 100 % confirmed as not being a prolbem.
Focus on the VCOs.

Hoping for some good news!
amir wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 6:45 pm
I would appreciate any other suggestions or ideas, probably not thinking of something obvious. I’ve banged my head against the wall enough with mutable builds to know it’s usually the most obvious thing that causes the issue which is usually why it’s the one that you can’t see.

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Re: [AVAILABLE] TTSH V4 Build Thread

Post by amir » Wed May 27, 2020 9:18 pm

I typed a long reply but the forum certs gave a weird error as I pressed post and it all got deleted(sorry for short answers) so I copied your questions to answer them faster.

First and foremost, we're in the V4 thread. Is yours V4? I have a v3 board with a v4 4012 filter card in it now. Once a new version comes out its difficult getting people to reply on old threads so I thought the vco design hasn't changed and would apply here as well.

Next let's never use "post lawsuit" to describe a 4072. It prolongs a false and misleading narrative. It also takes longer to type.
I am an attorney by day and dont notice typing it! Further, its stated right on the card whether it is correct or not but you are correct it was never filed so it is misleading.
worked for years and then just stopped. Noise issues and interactions since. the very first thing that comes to mind and the reason for asking which Version, is the jack-metal-on-top-of-traces thing. Can you confirm that this is *not* a possible issue for *every* jack location?
Jacks have been trimmed and I added tape in also below them for extra safety
Next, just take the LEDs completely out of the equation. Desolder their powering component if you have to. You've got to fight one battle at a time if you can.
today I removed the bridge at the 3k3 resistor which cut them off. this didn't make any difference other than noise no longer there with leds off and the vmin stayed closer to zero without having to adjust the trimmer for led brightness. I know this doesn't mean much but I added a 1k resistor there and the leds still turn off and the noise is less noticeable.
I'm going to assume that if there were some kind of correlating event that happened when the filter quit, you'd have told us. Like lightning storm, or new refrigerator, new gear on the same circuit, etc. What else, if anything, was going on that could have affected power to your TTSH when thefilter quit. I'm going to assume nothng, but *you* should try to remember anything that may pertain.
nothing else happened. it just cut out mid session and it was sunny out. I have good surge protectors in the studio including a backup power source.
The backwards power cap is not likely to be an issue unless it was the decoupling cap for the filter? Electrolytics have performed backwards for long periods of time before. It's not a wholly unique thing.
It was the -15v power rail electrolytic cap.
It wouldn't be unusual for three identical circuits faced with the same identical environmental situation, might all fail in the same identical way. So i wouldn't completely discount the VCO's only due to there being three of them. But they're easy to test.
thats true, I am starting to lose my mind. Probably need to take some time away from it and come back fresh. I noticed a few things on them today and wish my previous post had posted but the main thing I noticed is that on the squares it will stabilize around 11.6vpp but also jump randomly upto 13vpp almost randomly and then come back down. On VCO3 I noticed that the pwm slider needs to move much further right to get a pure square. before it would be pretty close in the center. The saw tooth is jumping between 10.3 and 11vpp at the jack. I am tempted to order some blank vco cards and build new ones but having trouble sourcing trustable rare transistors for it. I got lucky on the CA3046 from china, they turned out to be real and I got 10 for $8 shipped! I might attempt this with the trannies but dont want to get bad parts and get more lost
Before that, I want you to disable the noise section. V1 TTSH -and real 2600's- really were better for this kind of thing. butr let's take any possible noise issue out of the overall equation. One battle at a time..
I really dont want to cut traces on the main board if I dont have to. I check the noise section a lot today and reflowed anything that slightly even looked fishy. I was getting pretty tired at this point though and only swapped the last opamp in the circuit but none of it made any difference. All the parts are in the correct place and oriented correctly as well. I am getting 20vpp out of the jack for white noise at max, and almost 30vpp when I lower the color slider all the way down.

Pull the filter too.
tried this before and no difference
Let's concentrate on the JACKS shorting through solder mask first. And then after that's 100 % confirmed as not being a prolbem.
Focus on the VCOs.

Hoping for some good news!
thanks! nothing yet but hoping I find something that will magically turn it all around! The studio is mess with this thing all over the place. I'm not able to focus on working on music which is not helping. I need to get it back together soon! :bang:

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Re: [AVAILABLE] TTSH V4 Build Thread

Post by amir » Thu May 28, 2020 12:15 am

Just realized I had switched my probe into 1x mode when I was dealing with the filter so now I am getting more stable readings at 10x. Vco 1 looks almost perfect but still going into the negative. Vco 2 is about the same but vco3 is around 12vpp square. Pwm slider still reads pure square at almost 3/4 instead of in the middle. Noise is still outputting the same 20-30 vpp. I’ve attached images of vco1.
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Re: [AVAILABLE] TTSH V4 Build Thread

Post by bardx86 » Wed Jun 03, 2020 1:16 am

Hi all,

Just joined the TTSH world, got the latest batch from synth cube. I'm just at the point were I'm about to start putting in the sliders, woot. I do have a question. I'm planing on changing the op amps out except the triangle shaper of course. Are there others I shouldn't change? I've also noticed that the offset/compensation caps are different values on different op amps. I'm planning on not putting these in but the different values concerns me. Will this effect the circuit?

Thanks,
Brad

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Re: [AVAILABLE] TTSH V4 Build Thread

Post by Wheelbreak » Wed Jun 03, 2020 5:06 pm

I have now run into another problem. Up until this point I have only been playing with it on it's own making droney Gristley goodness. Today I hooked up my micro freak and ran into gate problems. The gate booster is receiving the gates (the LED is lighting up) but not sending a gate out. It is just dribbling out about 300mv with no change when a gate is applied. Changed out the tl072 and nothing changes.

I think "oh well I'll figure that out later, as I really just want to jam" and jumper the gate in to the switch and all is good at first. Then I realize that it will only trigger the AR generator and not the ADSR. The clock triggers both fine, as does the momentary switch. The microfreak sends out 12.5v so there should be plenty there to trigger both. I looked at the schematic and don't understand how the AR will trigger while the ADSR doesn't. I assume it would have to be the 3906 or the 5172 on the input of the ADSR? Is there away to test these on the board? I'm not really sure what they do other than boost the signal. I guess the 3906 could switch it on?

A push in the right direction would be greatly appreciated.

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Re: [AVAILABLE] TTSH V4 Build Thread

Post by KSS » Wed Jun 03, 2020 5:51 pm

Check the switch in the AR section and the diode feeding the trigger pin of the 4020 adsr. S8 and D21 in the ARP service manual. The ADSR won't start without BOTH a gate and a trigger. They both are routed from the internal clock through the 2 pole switch to the diodes for gate and trig of the ADSR.

From your description it seems either switch or trig diode has an issue. But there's another path to check.

Slide the switch up and patch both gate and trig in using the panel jacks under the release slider. Use the mult if you need to. If this works it's the switch with a problem in the down position. If it still doesn't work, then check the diode on the ADSR trigger line.

If the diode's fine, then there's a problem on the way to, or in your ADSR's 4020 circuitry. Guessing this isn't the case since you'd have noticed it earlier?

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Re: [AVAILABLE] TTSH V4 Build Thread

Post by Wheelbreak » Wed Jun 03, 2020 8:15 pm

I checked the switch first thing and it seemed to be okay. I rewetted and added a little bit more solder just in case.

I tried what you suggested, and now mysteriously the ADSR is working with the micro freak gate when patched just in the gate input. after fiddling with it for about an hour before I couldn't get it to do that.

The trigger input does nothing. I have continuity from the end of a patch cable through the the trigger input through the switch all the way to the diode protecting the jack.


I replaced the diode next to the switch thinking that was the one you were referring to, but after more careful inspection of the schematic realized it was the wrong one. I checked all the diodes leading to the ADSR section and they all seemed to be fine. I guess it could be one of the 2n5172s? Is it possible to check those on the board?

At least I can play it now, but would really like to be able to use the trigger in if I wanted.

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Re: [AVAILABLE] TTSH V4 Build Thread

Post by KSS » Wed Jun 03, 2020 8:44 pm

How are you checking the diodes?

Are you saying the ADSR plays correctly using only the gate jack under the panel gate/trig graphic when patched from the micro-freak?
Or is the MF patched into the jack above the SH GATE?

If the first, that confirms you've got something not working right.
The second is to be expected. That jack splits into both gate and trig for the EG as before outlined.

The gate and trigger jacks under the AR are actually intended to be outputs of the keyboard. Bringing these two vital signals to the patching area. Rather than lower left where the KBD CV is. That one's close on purpose to the OSCs and mult.

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Re: [AVAILABLE] TTSH V4 Build Thread

Post by KSS » Wed Jun 03, 2020 8:48 pm

What do you mean by to the diode protecting the jack? These diodes are there to direct G/T signals. Prevent manual press generated voltage from back feeding other inputs.

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Re: [AVAILABLE] TTSH V4 Build Thread

Post by bardx86 » Thu Jun 04, 2020 10:56 am

All,

Need a little help. I've got the power supply built but I'm only getting +15 and not the -15. When I check at the dc to dc converters I do get readings at both. Not sure what I should check.

thanks,
brad

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Re: [AVAILABLE] TTSH V4 Build Thread

Post by Wheelbreak » Thu Jun 04, 2020 11:14 am

My multimeter has a setting to check diodes and the readings across all of them in that section are the same. I have checked that the orientation of them all is correct

I went over what you wrote and looked again at the schematic then tested everything again.
I just hooked everything up and
-MF in SH gate jack fires both envelopes
-MF in gate jack is just firing the AR envelope
-MF in trigger jack fires nothing
-MF in gate and trigger jacks fires both

I guess that means it is working correctly. I feel like a moron. Having the two envelopes fire independently with the "and logic" on the adsr was not something I expected. Thinking about it now could provide some interesting patch ideas.

I just have to figure out what I did wrong on the gate booster now. Thanks for walking me through that.

what I meant by protecting the jacks is protecting them from voltage going the wrong way.

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Re: [AVAILABLE] TTSH V4 Build Thread

Post by FactoryDefault » Thu Jun 04, 2020 11:52 am

bardx86 wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 10:56 am
All,

Need a little help. I've got the power supply built but I'm only getting +15 and not the -15. When I check at the dc to dc converters I do get readings at both. Not sure what I should check.

thanks,
brad

Can you post a HQ picture of the board?
(Front and back so we can components and solder joints.)

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Re: [AVAILABLE] TTSH V4 Build Thread

Post by amir » Thu Jun 04, 2020 3:56 pm

bardx86 wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 10:56 am
All,

Need a little help. I've got the power supply built but I'm only getting +15 and not the -15. When I check at the dc to dc converters I do get readings at both. Not sure what I should check.

thanks,
brad
Make sure you have ground connection from power supply going to the board, if you are using a linear power supply. But in general check your grounds. The power board usual does strange stuff when the ground is bad somewhere or shorted. Otherwise it’s pretty straight forward and not much to screw up other than soldering the pads under the voltage regulators.

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Re: [AVAILABLE] TTSH V4 Build Thread

Post by bardx86 » Fri Jun 05, 2020 2:24 am

amir wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 3:56 pm
bardx86 wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 10:56 am
All,

Need a little help. I've got the power supply built but I'm only getting +15 and not the -15. When I check at the dc to dc converters I do get readings at both. Not sure what I should check.

thanks,
brad
Make sure you have ground connection from power supply going to the board, if you are using a linear power supply. But in general check your grounds. The power board usual does strange stuff when the ground is bad somewhere or shorted. Otherwise it’s pretty straight forward and not much to screw up other than soldering the pads under the voltage regulators.
Thanks for the responses guys. I pulled the converters out and test them one at a time and they were fine. So I put them back in and everything works. Must of had a bad solder joint.

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Re: [AVAILABLE] TTSH V4 Build Thread

Post by amir » Thu Jun 11, 2020 9:10 pm

Few updates and questions;

Digging in old threads I found a post by don t that claims the noise generator output is supposed to be at 20vpp and that if it’s not it won’t even be able to drive the S&H circuit. He claimed it was an error on the schematic. Can someone post an actual picture of their noise gen outputting 10vpp as claimed in schematics?

Does anyone have the Gerber files for the 4027-1 osc boards still? They are no longer on oshpark.

Replaced few trannies on mine and still not getting good vpp. I also noticed on my freq counter that the osc are maxing out at 5khz and if you feed them more voltage the freq starts dropping. This happens on all 3. Adjusting freq trimmer has same outcome. My next step is to build osc boards from scratch. I have a feeling the problem is something else though still.

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Re: [AVAILABLE] TTSH V4 Build Thread

Post by ultravox » Fri Jun 12, 2020 7:11 am

amir wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 9:10 pm
Does anyone have the Gerber files for the 4027-1 osc boards still? They are no longer on oshpark.
Hi amir,

I created those VCO files (and designed a front panel) so I could build a TTSH from scratch after Jon sent me an extra mainboard. I shared them freely with everyone but it didn't feel right considering all the hard work Jon put into designing the TTSH... so I removed them from oshpark.

If Jon or any of the new designers say it's ok then I'll re-post the 4027-1 files.
This means nothing to me... Oh, Vienna!

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Re: [AVAILABLE] TTSH V4 Build Thread

Post by amir » Fri Jun 12, 2020 4:59 pm

ultravox wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 7:11 am
amir wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 9:10 pm
Does anyone have the Gerber files for the 4027-1 osc boards still? They are no longer on oshpark.
Hi amir,

I created those VCO files (and designed a front panel) so I could build a TTSH from scratch after Jon sent me an extra mainboard. I shared them freely with everyone but it didn't feel right considering all the hard work Jon put into designing the TTSH... so I removed them from oshpark.

If Jon or any of the new designers say it's ok then I'll re-post the 4027-1 files.

Thanks! If you’re in Atlanta still and have any extras left, maybe we can meet and I’ll buy them off you! Trying to order some of the parts I need right now, but haven’t been able to get in touch with synthcube to order some tempcos and their checkout is not letting me pick a shipping method. Only gives an option for in store pickup at the last step. Still waiting on an order from 3 months ago as well that was missing in the package they sent even though their website said it was in stock at the time I ordered.

If I can’t get extra boards I’ll just unsolder these but worried that I’ll waste a ton of rare parts and the osc boards are not even the issue.

Update: synthcube got in touch and is helping me out. In case anyone reads this in the future!
Last edited by amir on Sat Jun 13, 2020 1:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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