Searching a simple VCA DIY project

From circuitbending to homebrew stompboxes & synths, keep the DIY spirit alive!

Moderators: Kent, Joe., analogdigital, infradead, lisa, parasitk, plord, sduck

Post Reply
Hales
Common Wiggler
Posts: 136
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2018 11:22 am
Location: Strasbourg, France

Post by Hales » Sun Dec 15, 2019 12:54 pm

"The expense is not lost anyway, you didn't buy these tools for a single build, did you ?"

Of course no but you seem to be saying that no other module to build can prepare me for building Ripples, so i feel deadlocked…

User avatar
papz
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 2844
Joined: Sat May 18, 2013 6:52 pm
Location: in a suitcase
Contact:

Post by papz » Sun Dec 15, 2019 1:05 pm

Ce que je dis c'est qu'il n'y a pas de projet qui te préparera spécifiquement au montage de Ripples, ni à aucun autre.
Ce qu'il te faut c'est une bonne expérience d'ordre général, qui ne s'acquiert qu'en réalisant et en déboguant d'autres projets plus simples, en CMS ou en composants traversants, comme l'a aussi écrit Forestcaver.

C'est seulement après avoir appris progressivement à conduire des voitures de plus en plus puissantes que tu pourras te mettre au volant d'une Ferrari sans risquer de l'envoyer dans le fossé dès que tu effleureras l'accélérateur.
Finest EMS gear service and Music Easel/208 goodies

I'm not a synths dealer and I'm not aware of an inexpensive Synthi secret market, please don't ask me if I know one for sale.
I don't offer support of any kind to people attempting to build clones of EMS equipment.

User avatar
forestcaver
Veteran Wiggler
Posts: 519
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 4:41 pm
Location: UK
Contact:

Post by forestcaver » Sun Dec 15, 2019 1:09 pm

papz wrote: C'est seulement après avoir appris progressivement à conduire des voitures de plus en plus puissantes que tu pourras te mettre au volant d'une Ferrari sans risquer de l'envoyer dans le fossé dès que tu effleures l'accélérateur.
:lol:

C’est vraiment...

Hales
Common Wiggler
Posts: 136
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2018 11:22 am
Location: Strasbourg, France

Post by Hales » Sun Dec 15, 2019 2:01 pm

Merci pour votre aide, du coup la prochaine étape est de me procurer un multimètre et un oscilloscope, that's it?

User avatar
forestcaver
Veteran Wiggler
Posts: 519
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 4:41 pm
Location: UK
Contact:

Post by forestcaver » Sun Dec 15, 2019 2:20 pm

Hales wrote:Merci pour votre aide, du coup la prochaine étape est de me procurer un multimètre et un oscilloscope, that's it?
Oui - la prochaine étape est de vous procurer un multimètre (imo)

(Excusez mon français !)

Hales
Common Wiggler
Posts: 136
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2018 11:22 am
Location: Strasbourg, France

Post by Hales » Sun Dec 15, 2019 2:25 pm

Should I go for a smd tweezer meter or standard multimeter?

adam
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 2878
Joined: Wed Dec 25, 2013 6:24 am

Post by adam » Sun Dec 15, 2019 2:27 pm

i posted a link to the hackspace in strasbourg, if you join they will have all the equipment you need and people who know how to use it...

Hales
Common Wiggler
Posts: 136
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2018 11:22 am
Location: Strasbourg, France

Post by Hales » Sun Dec 15, 2019 3:46 pm

Yes adam, thank you, I met these groups but they don't have the necessary equipment.

User avatar
forestcaver
Veteran Wiggler
Posts: 519
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 4:41 pm
Location: UK
Contact:

Post by forestcaver » Sun Dec 15, 2019 4:13 pm

Hales wrote:Should I go for a smd tweezer meter or standard multimeter?
I only have standard dmm (got a few different ones)

Ps. I’ve just read through this thread. Be aware that your hot air gun ought to be checked properly. Have a read of this:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/dead ... k-station/

I have an 858d clone as well (different source to yours) and mine is fine - I was aware of the risk that a lot have dodgy earthing before buying, but was prepared to fix or bin it and am able to test it.

Hales
Common Wiggler
Posts: 136
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2018 11:22 am
Location: Strasbourg, France

Post by Hales » Sun Dec 15, 2019 4:20 pm

Thanks, I finally bought this model: yihua 862D+, don't know if it's really better, it has worked without problems so far…

Hales
Common Wiggler
Posts: 136
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2018 11:22 am
Location: Strasbourg, France

Post by Hales » Sun Dec 15, 2019 4:38 pm

forestcaver wrote:Suggestions if you do build ripples first - buy a multimeter and test every component before you place it (all the passives) - takes longer but reduces errors. Build a cheapo oscilloscope eg dso138 (~£15) which will help (but you get what you pay for). If you have limited test kit build an xr2206 fnction generator (~£5) to test things. Build a sacrifial power supply eg meanwell dcw05a-12 (~£7) or an mfos clone linear supply (this will avoid damaging your existing modules or your rackpower supply). Magnification is really helpful/essential.

Without a multimeter you are really guessing! It’s not unknown for companies like mouser etc to send wrongly labelled resistors etc. Without one you have minimal chance of testing voltages etc

With Ripples, I’d do the ics first then the passives.

I use a soldering iron and wire.

But seriously, if you have to ask, it implies you may need a bit more experience first.... dont want to discourage you and it may all work out fine.... (ripples was my first try at smt so it is doable, but I had done a fair bit of through hole....). As I say, putting it together is the easy part - fault finding without knowledge and experience can be more challenging....

I still think building veils is very ambitious though (0402 is fine - I sometimes prefer it to 0603 - it’s a bit faster as the soldering of each joint is so quick - fraction of a second as the thermal mass is so low, but soldering the opamps on veils takes a bit of experience - the pads are the same size as the pins and they are very close together - tssop vs soic on ripples). You see an awful lot of failed veils builds on forums.... I think veils is a lot harder to build than eg marbles or plaits..... but ymmv....
Can you post some links about sacrifial power supply and mfos clone linear? And how do you use xr2206 to test modules?

User avatar
forestcaver
Veteran Wiggler
Posts: 519
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 4:41 pm
Location: UK
Contact:

Post by forestcaver » Sun Dec 15, 2019 5:08 pm

Hales wrote:Can you post some links about sacrifial power supply and mfos clone linear? And how you use xr2206 to test modules?
Hmm - far too big a topic! (I have no idea about links for power supplies- did you look up the ones I mentioned ?)

The ideal solution is a bench power supply that limits current. When you are starting out it is expensive so I suggested building a power supply that if you damage it you dont cry. Also having a power supply separate from your main racks means you dont destroy expensive modules and power supplies.

The meanwell I listed is also protected from short circuits and has auto shutdown. It’s also cheap. Ripple isnt great (~50-60mv from memory) but who cares ? (Wel.... lots of answers here!) The linear mfos-type clones are also cheap to build but are more expensive....



The xr2206 just produces different waveforms at different frequencies so you can use it as an envelope, clock, trigger, lfo or audio source as an input to your module. You can then test the module with an oscilloscope away from your rack. You can find it on Amazon or aliexpress for example.

Or build a MI module tester. (I dont use the power supply out as shorting it could damage the mcu or screen)

The dso138 oscilloscope I mentioned is cheap and easy to build - also on amazon/aliexpress/banggood etc. It’s only useful for audio rate - so no good for digital. The screen isnt great. Only single channel. There is some lag. But it does a job and is really cheap. If you want better, buy a 4-channel Rigol IMO.

Have a read of my blog for starters.

Then google the terms I listed.

I guess my main concern is that you are jumping into advanced diy modules without the basics - so you are asking lot of questions that need to be learnt along the way.
It is a bit like jumping into a Formula One car and asking what the accelerator does..... :-) (Sorry to be a downer....)
(For example, I knew I wanted to build complex digital modules but I started off on simple analog ones eg the Frequency Central modules and built quite a few of them - until I understood the principles of audio and synths. I also learnt how to use oscilloscopes etc whilst debugging simple modules. I built my own power supplies and cases to learn what I needed. I also built a lot of stomp boxes. I took it step by step - making sure I understood what the electronics did from the schematics so that I could debug it.... that needed a fair bit of reading ! I’m also lucky in that I have a background - long ago - that helped in learning this stuff....)
I dont want to discourage you and it may be right to say just sod it and get on with it - you’ll learn loads even if it doesnt work....
Last edited by forestcaver on Sun Dec 15, 2019 5:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

adam
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 2878
Joined: Wed Dec 25, 2013 6:24 am

Post by adam » Sun Dec 15, 2019 5:16 pm

advanced diy modules, it's a ripples ffs, he's just taught himself smd soldering with the free kit i provided, he just needs to know what to put where, initally ;)

User avatar
forestcaver
Veteran Wiggler
Posts: 519
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 4:41 pm
Location: UK
Contact:

Post by forestcaver » Sun Dec 15, 2019 5:24 pm

adam wrote:advanced diy modules, it's a ripples ffs, he's just taught himself smd soldering with the free kit i provided, he just needs to know what to put where, initally ;)
Ok - I’m out. I’ll stop posting on this topic.

Sorry to have upset you Adam. I know it’s your business. I just didnt think Veils was a simple build (and I dont think debugging ripples is trivial if you’re someone who doesnt even have a multimeter).

adam
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 2878
Joined: Wed Dec 25, 2013 6:24 am

Post by adam » Sun Dec 15, 2019 5:26 pm

yes, building by hand i'd agree with you, but this guy in japan has been knocking out 0402 stuff against my advice like a champ, kinks and all sorts, with a stencil and hot air

Hales
Common Wiggler
Posts: 136
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2018 11:22 am
Location: Strasbourg, France

Post by Hales » Sun Dec 15, 2019 6:15 pm

OK thanks for the precisions…
I actually feel like I'm going backwards, it becomes far too difficult compared to what I imagined and now I hesitate to resell everything and move on full kits with presoldered SMD. :hmm:

adam
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 2878
Joined: Wed Dec 25, 2013 6:24 am

Post by adam » Mon Dec 16, 2019 8:11 am

generally beginners who've used a stencil and hot air or a hot plate have had a pretty easy time, the stencil ensures you get the correct amount of paste on each pad, and surface tension pulls the parts into place when it's heated, generally people who solder like this don't have huge troubleshooting nightmares.

Hales
Common Wiggler
Posts: 136
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2018 11:22 am
Location: Strasbourg, France

Post by Hales » Tue Dec 17, 2019 12:58 pm

I will try to mount Ripples, I got a multimeter to check values before and after soldering. I will try to solder without a stencil. Before I begin, I want to check with you how best to proceed. Do I have to solder several different components that are side by side at the same time? (I imagine that it is better to avoid being returning too often on the same area). Or rather to solder all the components of the same value at the same time, for example all the 100k resistors?

adam
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 2878
Joined: Wed Dec 25, 2013 6:24 am

Post by adam » Tue Dec 17, 2019 1:39 pm

you'll probably find it easier to do all 100k etc at the same time, then you can empty them into a small bowl and get them all done at once, you can use find.ulp in eagle to highlight all 100k locations, it's easier than looking at the pcb - if you do it this way you will not be working in the same place all the time.

User avatar
cackland
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1736
Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2017 5:42 pm
Location: Los Angeles, California

Post by cackland » Tue Dec 17, 2019 1:42 pm

adam wrote:generally beginners who've used a stencil and hot air or a hot plate have had a pretty easy time, the stencil ensures you get the correct amount of paste on each pad, and surface tension pulls the parts into place when it's heated, generally people who solder like this don't have huge troubleshooting nightmares.
+1. Definitely recommend ordering the stencil from your PCB fab. It'll save you a bunch of potential headaches.

Hales
Common Wiggler
Posts: 136
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2018 11:22 am
Location: Strasbourg, France

Post by Hales » Tue Dec 17, 2019 2:10 pm

OK, Is there any EU company that can provide stencil PCB? Adam, you certainly know which file to provide to these company… if yes can you give me these file for ripples and veils?

adam
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 2878
Joined: Wed Dec 25, 2013 6:24 am

Post by adam » Tue Dec 17, 2019 2:30 pm

oshstencils is the best one, in the usa but shipping is cheap, files are here

https://github.com/pichenettes/eurorack

Hales
Common Wiggler
Posts: 136
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2018 11:22 am
Location: Strasbourg, France

Post by Hales » Tue Dec 17, 2019 2:48 pm

cackland Do you work for oshstencils? :lol:

Hales
Common Wiggler
Posts: 136
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2018 11:22 am
Location: Strasbourg, France

Post by Hales » Wed Dec 18, 2019 11:15 am

I will begin with ICs, just need be sure of the polarity for IC1, IC2, IC3… Do I need to place the dot at pad labelled 1? (I surrounded it in yellow in the screenshot)
Image

adam
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 2878
Joined: Wed Dec 25, 2013 6:24 am

Post by adam » Wed Dec 18, 2019 12:07 pm

yes, thats right, the slanted edge of the IC goes over the 2 lines at the bottom

Post Reply

Return to “Music Tech DIY”