Logic Toggle Latch

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msboude
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Re: Logic Toggle Latch

Post by msboude » Sat Mar 28, 2020 9:59 am

Awesome, thanks for the circuit and information Hinton! Appreciate it!

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EATyourGUITAR
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Re: Logic Toggle Latch

Post by EATyourGUITAR » Sat Mar 28, 2020 10:37 am

Graham Hinton wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 3:40 pm
File that with belief in the Tooth Fairy.
Mr Hinton I know that you are a talented engineer. I know that you hold logic higher than belief systems. this is why I ask you this question seriously. can you prove that the tooth fairy does not exist? can you?
WWW.EATYOURGUITAR.COM <---- MY DIY STUFF

tardishead
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Re: Logic Toggle Latch

Post by tardishead » Sat Mar 28, 2020 10:40 am

msboude wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 9:48 am
I see where you get your name.. you address someone giving you shit... but dont address the people that are actually helping you and drawing out circuits you dick.
Ummm I do apologise! I really appreciate it. I am actually trying to learn and understand the options given by everyone. I answered the last person "giving me shit" because I suddenly realised that I probably had not made it clear what I needed and could have been sending everyone on a wild goose chase. I thought you were mid discussion with Graham and EatYourGuitar about a particular problem

I'm a bit scatty at the moment because I'm the primary carer of a seriously autistic child who just wants be free at a time when you're not even allowed to go the friggin playground to let off a bit of steam. So theres an intense amount of anxiety! So I'm online and offline mentally all the time.
Anyway theres been quite a lot of suggestions - every new suggestion I am trying to understand if it is going to do what I want it to. And before I really work that out another circuit is posted.

What I should say at this point is
Thanks everyone for your input - maybe at this point I really should "fire up the breadboard"!

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msboude
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Re: Logic Toggle Latch

Post by msboude » Sat Mar 28, 2020 10:41 am

tardishead wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 1:09 pm

I want to use a trigger to toggle between 2 states, a continuous high and continuous low.

Reverse function on a sequencer
Activate serge bi directional switch
A few others can't remember
At the moment I only have long envelopes to do this - not ideal because they end and switch reverts
I want a circuit where you can send it a gate or trigger and it will toggle between high and low continuous outputs.

I hope that's clear now. I have a selection of CGS logic modules - maybe this can be done with a combination of what I already have!

viewtopic.php?f=17&t=228760&p=3217338#p3217338

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msboude
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Re: Logic Toggle Latch

Post by msboude » Sat Mar 28, 2020 10:49 am

tardishead wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 10:40 am
msboude wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 9:48 am
I see where you get your name.. you address someone giving you shit... but dont address the people that are actually helping you and drawing out circuits you dick.
Ummm I do apologise! I really appreciate it. I am actually trying to learn and understand the options given by everyone. I answered the last person "giving me shit" because I suddenly realised that I probably had not made it clear what I needed and could have been sending everyone on a wild goose chase. I thought you were mid discussion with Graham and EatYourGuitar about a particular problem

I'm a bit scatty at the moment because I'm the primary carer of a seriously autistic child who just wants be free at a time when you're not even allowed to go the friggin playground to let off a bit of steam. So theres an intense amount of anxiety! So I'm online and offline mentally all the time.
Anyway theres been quite a lot of suggestions - every new suggestion I am trying to understand if it is going to do what I want it to. And before I really work that out another circuit is posted.

What I should say at this point is
Thanks everyone for your input - maybe at this point I really should "fire up the breadboard"!
I understand.. we are all under stress right now.. I'm just giving you shit. Heh.. hope you get a circuit sorted out.

A simple clock divider like the doepfer can be used as a toggle at its /2 output.

tardishead
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Re: Logic Toggle Latch

Post by tardishead » Sat Mar 28, 2020 11:07 am

msboude wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 10:49 am
A simple clock divider like the doepfer can be used as a toggle at its /2 output.
Yeh I've got a CGS pulse divider but the output divisions are all the same pulse width as the clock they're dividing. Not a continuous high voltage like I need (until next trigger).
Thats why I suggested the 4017 toggle with different implementation
I think at this point I'm going to try the 4017 toggle and the 4013 toggle and see whats going on - and add the power on reset if needed.

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msboude
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Re: Logic Toggle Latch

Post by msboude » Sat Mar 28, 2020 11:22 am

Yep yep! I guess I should have stated that the doepfer does a gate out that will stay high..

Good luck!

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Re: Logic Toggle Latch

Post by Graham Hinton » Sat Mar 28, 2020 11:58 am

EATyourGUITAR wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 10:37 am
can you prove that the tooth fairy does not exist? can you?
A nine year old kid worked out how to do that last year, so that is not a problem that requires my input. He put a tooth under his pillow without telling his parents and nothing happened.
tardishead wrote:maybe at this point I really should "fire up the breadboard"!
I have always strongly advocated prototyping a design and never rushed into making pcbs, but be careful. Don't just say "it works!", think about how it might not work. What could break it? It's just a straw man at that stage. With logic designs you have to know how to handle bouncing, noise, propagation delays, rise times, thresholds, race conditions and so on. It's a minefield. One of the most common mistakes is thinking in analogue terms and statically when you should be thinking in digital terms and dynamically. It is worth reading Horowitz & Hall (chapters 8 & 9) on this subject, especially for the bad circuit examples.

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Re: Logic Toggle Latch

Post by tardishead » Sat Mar 28, 2020 12:35 pm

msboude wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 11:22 am
Yep yep! I guess I should have stated that the doepfer does a gate out that will stay high..
Really that’s interesting
I bet there aren’t many dividers out there that do that

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Re: Logic Toggle Latch

Post by cackland » Sat Mar 28, 2020 1:11 pm

cackland wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:01 pm
Is this what you're after?

http://tinyurl.com/u2huwmp
tardishead did you see my interactive example?

Graham Hinton, curious to hear your thoughts on it.

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msboude
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Re: Logic Toggle Latch

Post by msboude » Sat Mar 28, 2020 1:25 pm

I wonder if tardishead missed the link, I admit I passed right over the link during my blast of posts.

That's a sweet circuit! Makes me want to breadboard it up for fun.. interesting idea.

I see it is 5v.. I may have to make adjustments to it for a 12v source..

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Re: Logic Toggle Latch

Post by cackland » Sat Mar 28, 2020 1:33 pm

Yes, the switching capability (in simulation) is around 10 ms, which is faster than a human can repeatedly toggle.

The inverters should be ok with 12v power source, which will be shown at the output (if you require that high of a logic signal). Most are 0 - 5v.

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msboude
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Re: Logic Toggle Latch

Post by msboude » Sat Mar 28, 2020 2:12 pm

Excellent.. great little circuit!

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Re: Logic Toggle Latch

Post by tardishead » Sat Mar 28, 2020 3:04 pm

Yes absolutely
It looks elegantly simple!
I already have 2 discrete inverters in my modular
I presume I canI replicate this with them?

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Re: Logic Toggle Latch

Post by tardishead » Sat Mar 28, 2020 3:35 pm

cackland wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 1:11 pm
cackland wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:01 pm
Is this what you're after?

http://tinyurl.com/u2huwmp
tardishead did you see my interactive example?

Graham Hinton, curious to hear your thoughts on it.
Yes absolutely
It looks elegantly simple!
I already have 2 discrete inverters in my modular
I presume I canI replicate this with them?

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Re: Logic Toggle Latch

Post by KSS » Sat Mar 28, 2020 4:06 pm

There is a simplified version of that circuit in the CMOS Cookbook chapter 5 mentioned before. Lancaster says his version is only good for low speed, such as a manual actuation. Since tardishead still hasn't let us know his intent for the circuit this may matter.

If a typical hex inverter is used you have 4 left over. If you instead use a quad logic wired as inverter, you only have two leftover.

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Re: Logic Toggle Latch

Post by tardishead » Sat Mar 28, 2020 5:06 pm

KSS wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 4:06 pm
Since tardishead still hasn't let us know his intent for the circuit this may matter.
Umm I certainly tried to about 10 posts ago!
To be able to turn on a continuous logic high to reverse a sequencer or switch a Serge BI DI SWITCH for example
I guess if the slowness is audible that might cause problems

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Graham Hinton
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Re: Logic Toggle Latch

Post by Graham Hinton » Sun Mar 29, 2020 8:27 am

cackland wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 1:11 pm
[Graham Hinton, curious to hear your thoughts on it.
I've used it. SSL used it. It's an adequate manual pushbutton debouncer using MML, but not a signal processor.
Nowadays I would use a PIC for either/both and do more channels.

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Re: Logic Toggle Latch

Post by BartBral » Mon Mar 30, 2020 4:41 pm

Graham Hinton wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 11:58 am
With logic designs you have to know how to handle bouncing, noise, propagation delays, rise times, thresholds, race conditions and so on. It's a minefield. One of the most common mistakes is thinking in analogue terms and statically when you should be thinking in digital terms and dynamically. It is worth reading Horowitz & Hall (chapters 8 & 9) on this subject, especially for the bad circuit examples.
Chapters 8 & 9 in second edition,
can be found in the 3th edition of "The Art of Electronics" as:
TEN: Digital Logic (starting on page 703).
THIRTEEN: Digital meets Analog (starting on page 879).


Don't want to sound like a know it all, but couldn't find it... then I checked second edition, and... Yes, there it was! ;)

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