Noob question: What's the best way to assemble a toggle switch?

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yhf
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Noob question: What's the best way to assemble a toggle switch?

Post by yhf » Sun Jul 26, 2020 7:07 am

Hi everyone,

I'm getting into Synth DIY and have just built my first Atari Punk Console on breadboard - love it. Now, I was inspecting the other beautiful parts I have ordered. The toggle switches came with two nuts and two other parts ("lock washer" and "lock ring"?). I was wondering in which order you assemble them. Searching online, I found different ways to do it - is there a "best" way when it comes to Synth DIY? How do you do it? It would be very nice if someone could show me on a photo. Thank you in advance!

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Re: Noob question: What's the best way to assemble a toggle switch?

Post by aphantomvaper » Sun Jul 26, 2020 7:36 am

A photo is prob unnecessary.

One nut screws on the shaft, this used to set how far the switch protrudes from the panel

The washer with the little cuts on it is the lock washer. This goes on the inside of the panel, over the height nut to keep the switch from changing position over time.

The last nut screws on the outside of the panel on the switch shaft. This will of course hold the switch in the panel.

You can use the washer with the single nub on the outside of the panel under the mount nut, but most do not.

In stacking order from the inside...switch, height nut, lock nut, panel, (mount washer with nub if wanted), mount nut

Hope that helps you out! :guinness:
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Re: Noob question: What's the best way to assemble a toggle switch?

Post by mskala » Sun Jul 26, 2020 7:57 am

I'd strongly recommend putting the toothed lockwasher on the outside of the panel, between the anti-rotation washer and the outside mounting nut. The point of having the toothed lockwasher is to keep the nut from rotating, which is more of a problem with the outside nut because that one is exposed to fingers. It's also better to have the teeth squeezed against a washer instead of against the less-replaceable panel material. So the sequence I'd recommend is:

Switch body; optional nut to set depth; panel; anti-rotation washer; toothed lockwasher; nut.

Note that the nut to set depth can be omitted if you want the switch body directly against the panel - which is how I usually design modules (PCB-mounted switch, just enough room between the PCB and panel for the switch body). In that case, you can thread the extra nut on the outside as a spare, or omit it entirely. Using the anti-rotation washer properly requires an extra hole in the panel to accept its little tab. If you don't have that, then you can either flip it over so the tab sticks up, or leave it out (but there again you have the lockwasher teeth digging into the panel).

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Re: Noob question: What's the best way to assemble a toggle switch?

Post by yhf » Sun Jul 26, 2020 9:04 am

Alright, thank you both. Looks like there are different ways to do it then. I guess I'll try both. Thanks!

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Re: Noob question: What's the best way to assemble a toggle switch?

Post by KSS » Sun Jul 26, 2020 11:29 am

I disagree with both prior replies.

They are both partially correct.

The inner nut is not only there to set height. It is also there to provide a fixed plane against which the rest of the stackup can act. I don't usually disagree with mskala, but using no inner nut makes the threaded collar more likely to be pulled out of the switch body by over-tightening. Always use an inner nut if you can.
It also uses up some of the length of the threaded collar which in non-specified 'standard' part numbers is too long for most synth use. This is why we see so many overly long threaded collars sticking out ugly on modules. There is a shorter threaded collar available from nearly all toggle switch providers which will make this ugliness go away. The only reason not to use it is that it -usually- needs to be ordered in quantity. Wish Synthcube and Thonk and others would pursue this. We'd all benefit.

Back to the stack. The next -optional- item is the anti-rotation washer with the little leg designed to fit into a panel or sub-panel hole. Combined with the keyway or flat on the threaded collar this prevents the switch from rotating during its life in use.If you don't need or want its non-rotation function, you can reverse its direction to place the leg pointing away from the panel. But do keep it in place! Its large diameter is there to work together with the next part in the stack.

Next up is the serrated washer, also going INside the panel. Again disagreeing with mskala, that's likely a first! This serrated washer is designed to bite into the panel rear, and is part of the electrical shield or screen connection. It is not there to prevent rotation. We have the anti-rotate washer and hole for that!

Which brings up another fine point. In production, panels can be punched with the anti-rotation flat or key in place. Flat is a longer lasting punch and die so is usually the preferred choice. This eliminates the anti-rotate need for that washer but it still should be used. Otherwise the serrated nut sits against the inner nut. OR against the switch body if an inner nut is not used. Both are mismatches. But this serrated washer alsways belongs flat against the panel rear. It *may* still be able to perform its electrical function on the panel front -tho in an ugly and unnecessary way- but two things work against its use there. The likelihood of a panel finish which insulates the intended electrical joint. And the unsightly grooves its sharp-edged serrations put in the panel.

Finally we add the panel and get to the pretty 'dress' parts.
The flat 'dress' washer is there first to cover any difference in panel hole size or alignment, and to prevent the tool used for tightening the final nut from scratching the panel surface. It also spreads the clamping force of the final nut over a greater diameter, which increases its effectiveness.

The final 'dress' nut may be a plain hex, or any of a number of cosmetic options.

If you're worried about this nut coming loose you use a dab of small thread locker, like purple loctite. Many switches used in production will have a threadlocker pre-applied to the dress nut or threaded collar to make this fast and effective.

Edit: Sometimes a 'single-cut' style lockwasher is also provided with the switch. This is meant to be used under the finish nut to prevent its loosening. I've never found themn to work reliably and will always choose small thread lock instead. But if you were wondering where they're meant to go, now you know! fix multiple typos and add some details./edit

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Re: Noob question: What's the best way to assemble a toggle switch?

Post by KSS » Sun Jul 26, 2020 12:01 pm

Apologise for all the typos and edits above. Here's another fine point.
Washers are punched and so have a rounded edge on one face and a sharper edge on the other face. If you pay attention to this at assembly your project or product will look and perform better. Look better because the rounded edge on the dress washer is facing out.

Perform better because the acting diameter of the sharp edge is larger -in addition to any mechanical locking gained when the sharp 'corner' actually extends below the underside plane.
Against this is a finer detail. That you might want to run the back side of all the panel dress washers against a file or fine sandpaper to be sure it's really flat. This way it won't bite into your panel finish and give you switch rash. I've seen that some choose instead to put the rounded side down to pretect the panel finish without this extra step. But that also puts the ugly side of the dress washer outermost. Use a file. It takes only seconds.

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Re: Noob question: What's the best way to assemble a toggle switch?

Post by KSS » Sun Jul 26, 2020 12:17 pm

While here, I'll add that in the 60s, 70s, 80s toggle switches came with not 4 but SIX items in the 'hardware' bag. The best still do.
Two nuts, one of which was often prettier than the other, being the 'dress' nut.
Two lock washers. One serrated for the inside and one single cut for under the dress nut.
One plain dress washer.
One anti-rotation washer with tab.

As mfrs try to keep prices down and as we blindly accept the reduction in supplied parts, the number has gone down. And with it, the understanding of the purpose for the remaining parts.

It's only in recent years that the idea of having the anti-rotation tabbed washer visible has gained steam. Or maybe the internet just makes the outliers more noticed? Whichever it is, it makes no sense when you understand the reasons behind each and every piece in the stack as explained above.

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Re: Noob question: What's the best way to assemble a toggle switch?

Post by yhf » Sun Jul 26, 2020 4:32 pm

Wow, lots of information there - thank you for taking the time. I've read it all, but it is late where I am, so I better read again with a clear head tomorrow.

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Re: Noob question: What's the best way to assemble a toggle switch?

Post by Rex Coil 7 » Sun Jul 26, 2020 5:00 pm

KSS wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 11:29 am
I disagree with both prior replies.

They are both partially correct.

The inner nut is not only there to set height. It is also there to provide a fixed plane against which the rest of the stackup can act. I don't usually disagree with mskala, but using no inner nut makes the threaded collar more likely to be pulled out of the switch body by over-tightening. Always use an inner nut if you can.
It also uses up some of the length of the threaded collar which in non-specified 'standard' part numbers is too long for most synth use. This is why we see so many overly long threaded collars sticking out ugly on modules. There is a shorter threaded collar available from nearly all toggle switch providers which will make this ugliness go away. The only reason not to use it is that it -usually- needs to be ordered in quantity. Wish Synthcube and Thonk and others would pursue this. We'd all benefit.

Back to the stack. The next -optional- item is the anti-rotation washer with the little leg designed to fit into a panel or sub-panel hole. Combined with the keyway or flat on the threaded collar this prevents the switch from rotating during its life in use.If you don't need or want its non-rotation function, you can reverse its direction to place the leg pointing away from the panel. But do keep it in place! Its large diameter is there to work together with the next part in the stack.

Next up is the serrated washer, also going INside the panel. Again disagreeing with mskala, that's likely a first! This serrated washer is designed to bite into the panel rear, and is part of the electrical shield or screen connection. It is not there to prevent rotation. We have the anti-rotate washer and hole for that!

Which brings up another fine point. In production, panels can be punched with the anti-rotation flat or key in place. Flat is a longer lasting punch and die so is usually the preferred choice. This eliminates the anti-rotate need for that washer but it still should be used. Otherwise the serrated nut sits against the inner nut. OR against the switch body if an inner nut is not used. Both are mismatches. But this serrated washer alsways belongs flat against the panel rear. It *may* still be able to perform its electrical function on the panel front -tho in an ugly and unnecessary way- but two things work against its use there. The likelihood of a panel finish which insulates the intended electrical joint. And the unsightly grooves its sharp-edged serrations put in the panel.

Finally we add the panel and get to the pretty 'dress' parts.
The flat 'dress' washer is there first to cover any difference in panel hole size or alignment, and to prevent the tool used for tightening the final nut from scratching the panel surface. It also spreads the clamping force of the final nut over a greater diameter, which increases its effectiveness.

The final 'dress' nut may be a plain hex, or any of a number of cosmetic options.

If you're worried about this nut coming loose you use a dab of small thread locker, like purple loctite. Many switches used in production will have a threadlocker pre-applied to the dress nut or threaded collar to make this fast and effective.

Edit: Sometimes a 'single-cut' style lockwasher is also provided with the switch. This is meant to be used under the finish nut to prevent its loosening. I've never found themn to work reliably and will always choose small thread lock instead. But if you were wondering where they're meant to go, now you know! fix multiple typos and add some details./edit
Your better toggle switches will have a shoulder at the body end of the threaded barrel. The shoulder is actually part of the threaded barrel, not pressed on, it's actually the same piece of metal that the threads are cut into. So when you do not use a backing nut (and if you've drilled the panel holes to the PROPER size for the switch) the top nut IS NOT placing torque against the body of the switch and trying to pull the barrel out of the body. I've built hundreds of devices without using a single lock washer on mini toggles, instead I use Loctite 242. Well over one thousand toggle switches mounted without lock washers, with a stack I put together myself which includes stainless steel flat washers. And we're talking stompboxes here .... the red headed step child of musical gear .... treated with very little reverence or respect (relatively speaking) ... stepped on ... stomped on ... sweat on ... spit on ... beer spilt upon ... etc ..

Top pic = with shoulder.
Bottom pic = without shoulder.

Again, that shoulder is actually part of the same piece of material that the threaded barrel is made from. It's all one piece.


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Re: Noob question: What's the best way to assemble a toggle switch?

Post by mskala » Sun Jul 26, 2020 9:49 pm

I think one thing we've established here is that there are differences among different types of switches in terms of what hardware they come with, and what purposes that hardware is intended to serve. So an answer in vague general terms is likely to end up wrong for some switches if it's based on assumptions about the hardware that aren't clearly stated in both question and answer. I was assuming E-Switch 100-series miniature toggle switches with the B1 bushing option in my answer, because those are the ones I usually use. Each such switch comes with two hex nuts (identical to each other and NOT the same as the thing called a "dressnut" in the data sheet), one internal-tooth lockwasher, and a "locking ring" (called that in the data sheet) with a tab. But I haven't seen any official recommendation from the manufacturer about how these hardware items are meant to be used and I admit I'm inferring that from how I've seen other switches installed.

It would be interesting to know whether switch manufacturers have official guidance on this topic, and I'm firing off an email to E-Switch about it now. I wasn't able to find anything definitive in the data sheet or on their Web site. But even an official recommendation from the switch manufacturer might not settle the question with regard to any other manufacturer's product; and it's possible that more than one installation method is "right" for the same hardware on the same switch, depending on one's priorities.

Although I couldn't find a definitive recommendation on E-Switch's Web site, I did find this photo (at https://www.e-switch.com/product-catalo ... e-switches) showing a switch of the type I have in mind, with one nut, the lockwasher, and the locking ring. In this picture, the lockwasher goes between the nut and the locking ring, and although there's no panel in the photo, the tab on the locking ring is pointed down, away from the lockwasher. The only way to install the switch with the hardware items in the relative positions shown in this photo, and have the locking ring engage with the panel, would be to put all three hardware items on the outside of the panel the way I recommended above. But of course it's quite possible that this photo is only meant to advertise the switch, and not to be used as an example of the manufacturer's intended installation. I'll be interested to hear what they say if they answer my email.

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Re: Noob question: What's the best way to assemble a toggle switch?

Post by KSS » Mon Jul 27, 2020 5:25 am

This is a funny conversation. Yesterday I planned to post a new thread about the downfall in reliability and usefullness fo Mfr datasheets -using the Switchcraft 903X as one example- but instead spent the time I had online typing all the reply here. And don't you know it, when you take the time to give a really detailed reply, others will find even deeper detail to question. Things i could have added but I'm already typing some really long answers.

I'll start here. In over 40+ years in the electronics industry, across hundreds, maybe thousands of products, I've *never* seen a serrated washer or anti-rotation tab washer mounted on the front of a panel. Not even once. EXCEPT FOR EURORACK. I distinctly remember paults making an eyeroll comment about it once somewhere on MW. Saying something like Umm, the anti-rotation tab is supposed to go on the underside of the panel.

I looked at several catalogs in preparation for this post, and only found two instances of a photo like the one mskala has shared above. One of the two *was* the photo he's shared. The other was a Jameco photo.

Against this, the NKK M series catalog has both photos and drawings with the anti-rotation tab pointing up. The C&K 7000 series also shows tab up. I have zero, zilch nada concern about that part being incorrect. The anti-rotation tabbed washer goes inside.

The serrated washer is less clear if your only reference is current catalogs. Mine isn't. As i wrote, toggles used to come with 6 pieces of hardware. Each has a clear and non-confused place in the stack. When all six are present, there's little doubt which goes where. It doesn't makes sense to put the serrated wssher outside since that means the smaller diameter, lighter duty, single cut would go inside. Or on top of the serrated, but that makes even less sense!
Likewise the thin cleanly plated dress washer -which can still be plain, the term "dress" relates to its position as much as its appearance- does not belong inside the panel.

edit: An additional reminder about the serrated washer function not being about rotation is to have a look at your classic tube gear. In an age of 15 or 12volt rails, we might forget -or never have known- the importance of having all exposed metal parts connected to a low impedance path to frame GND for safety. When your B+ voltage is over 100 or more, it matters. Those of us DIYing in the tube era remember carefully soldering such wires to the rear pot shells for the same reason. Again, there's no real debate about where this serrated washer goes. It goes against the panel. For this Frame grounding reason. You might say it could be just as effective on the front side, and I'd only point out out that the reason for its sharp serrated twists is to cut through the oxides, paint or other finish. If you think that's intended by design to be on the show face of a panel, there's not much I can say to help you. /edit

Now we are in an era when even some of the better quality switches only ship with four pieces of hardware. Two nuts and two washers. One tabbed and one serrated washer, and often the two nuts are essentially interchangeable. Given that this might the only way a newcomer has ever seen toggles, it makes sense that there is some confusion. And the ability of the internet to promote false and incorrect information only adds to the problem.

There's a guy here won't accept that 'Schmitt' is a person's name -the inventor of the item bearing his name! and so feels that because he's seen the word Schmidt online that's okay usage and correct. This is an example of what we old school are dealing with. Even when we point out the undeniable, someone will point to somewhere on the net and say, but look here. We can only shake our heads and wonder..

I wasn't guessing or sharing a personal view about the toggle switch stack up. As Graham Hinton sometimes points out, some things have actual answers and aren't up for debate. I thought I'd written enough to show not only what goes where, but why.

Rex Coil 7 is correct that the better switches have bosses at the base. But how often do we see people here in DIY asking where to find the best?
It's nearly always "Where can I get the cheapest ___" And those kinds *will* pull out of the body. Just like the cheap jacks. I wrote to cover the worst case.

I'll leave it to others to either use or ignore what I wrote. And if you really want a class act toggle switch mount, get at least the dress washer to go under the finish-dress nut. As i already wrote the single cut lockwasher designed to go under it is better replaced by Anaerobic threadlocker.

And if we all make people like Synthcube and Thonk and MA knowledgable about the shorter threaded collar they can order them in Qty and make them more available, and we'll all have better looking modules! It's .280 (7,11mm) instead of .350 (8,89mm) Call it 7 or 9mm. About the same amount you see sticking out above the nut in most modules.

Now maybe I'll go start that thread about how pitiful datasheets are becoming.

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Re: Noob question: What's the best way to assemble a toggle switch?

Post by mskala » Mon Jul 27, 2020 10:19 am

Here's the response I just got from E-Switch customer service to my question about the hardware for their 100-series miniature toggle switches with B1 bushings:
E-Switch wrote:Our intent of the “lock washer” is exactly like it is named, to lock the nut
in place. The order is up to the user on location of where the lock ring
goes for appearance and assembly ease. It can go on either side of the
panel.

If certain applications require it to go a certain way, it is totally up to
the user

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Re: Noob question: What's the best way to assemble a toggle switch?

Post by KSS » Mon Jul 27, 2020 10:23 am

For what its worth, there's a very good chance the switch in Rex's non-collar photo has such a 'collar' right under the sheet metal enclosing the switch.
Like this ----_| |_----

as parts are made less expensively, this collar -which I'd call a 'boss'- is made less and less thick and its diameter is reduced. Eventually someone says why don't we just eliminate the boss altogether and either thread into the thin sheet metal or use a glue or braze to hold the two together. That becomes the type which can pull out.

There's a progression to how we arrived at the points we see today. It didn't get this way all at once. If you're old enough, you can remember various earlier points. The reason I bother to type such long messages is for the benefit of those who don't have a memory to build from, and in opposition to the false information seen online promoted and believed by those who also do not have the memory and so may be incorrect not out of some bias, but by simply not knowing any better.

When it's pointed out that Schmitt is the name of the guy who invented it, you can say Thanks, I didn't know that! Or you can double down and keep incorrectly using Schmidt. <--- Yes, that really bugs me.
Last edited by KSS on Mon Jul 27, 2020 12:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Noob question: What's the best way to assemble a toggle switch?

Post by KSS » Mon Jul 27, 2020 10:33 am

@mskala
In other words, they don't know.
Remember walking into a Radio Shack when the guy there -it was almost always a guy- actually knew about electronics?
And then remember when RS started selling phones and the person -now just as likely a woman- there no longer did?

Please don't take this to say that women working in RS didn't know electronics. That would be incorrect, unfair and is *not* the point of this post.

The point is that unless someone is trained by an older or more knowledgable person, the quality of the help -in certain aspects- can go down. Another point is that business needs may change. As phones became a bigger part of RS's bottom line, it was more important to know about phones than it was to know about electronics.

I'm not surprised by the answer yo received, but it does little to contradict the what's and why's of my posts in this thread. Instead, it's a CYA, don't upset anyone, safe non-answer.

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Re: Noob question: What's the best way to assemble a toggle switch?

Post by KSS » Mon Jul 27, 2020 10:45 am

Going to add one more anecdote since it fits well with the theme of the thread now that there's been an 'official' reply posted.

When I called Rogan up a few years ago to have some knobs made which hadn't been seen since the 70's, the lady on the phone said that sadly, Rogan no longer had those molds. They would need to be re-made. Because in the late 80s or early 90s, some mid level executive decided they could shave some costs by getting rid of all that old unused stuff taking up space.

The point is that business's lose knowledge sometimes. She was eager to have me provide them with the means to re-make their own lost capability.

What the reply to your inquiry shows is that the people replying no longer know the real reason for the serrated washer. Notice I'm not calling it a "lockwasher".

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Re: Noob question: What's the best way to assemble a toggle switch?

Post by mskala » Mon Jul 27, 2020 11:06 am

KSS wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 10:33 am
I'm not surprised by the answer yo received, but it does little to contradict the what's and why's of my posts in this thread. Instead, it's a CYA, don't upset anyone, safe non-answer.
I'd certainly been hoping to get something more definitive from them.

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Re: Noob question: What's the best way to assemble a toggle switch?

Post by KSS » Mon Jul 27, 2020 11:51 am

Might have better luck with a MFR like NKK or C&K. E-switch is more a distributor than mfr

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Re: Noob question: What's the best way to assemble a toggle switch?

Post by Rex Coil 7 » Fri Jul 31, 2020 9:59 am

KSS wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 5:25 am
... Rex Coil 7 is correct that the better switches have bosses at the base. But how often do we see people here in DIY asking where to find the best?
It's nearly always "Where can I get the cheapest ___" And those kinds *will* pull out of the body. Just like the cheap jacks. I wrote to cover the worst case.
Oh man ... woops ... please don't think I posted all of that shit about bushing and barrels and the like as a contradiction to you. Nope, no sir. It was just a sortof "public service announcement" (oh dear god, that was just stupid, crap-ass analogy). Just adding to the discussion about alternatives between available components type of thing. And it's kinda sad that "It's nearly always "Where can I get the cheapest ___" And those kinds *will* pull out of the body. Just like the cheap jacks." ... but it's that same attitude of "buying the cheapest" that has the US (and other nations) in trouble with having relied on pretty much a single supplier-nation for three decades. Far too many eggs in that one basket. In any case, where you wrote to cover the worst case, I augmented that with covering a potential alternative choice (in response to what you so rightly pointed out).
KSS wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 5:25 am
Now maybe I'll go start that thread about how pitiful datasheets are becoming.
... barf .... I hear ya brother. :tu:
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