Making your own panels with a desktop CNC

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KSS
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Re: Making your own panels with a desktop CNC

Post by KSS » Thu Aug 27, 2020 2:48 am

Had an Ah-Ha moment while typing that up. I've used drill BLANKS in the past for the short linear rods of a floating head. Ground, polished and hardened. but most of all, cheap. But the point here is that as soon as I heard "blanks" in my head, I thought of my not getting what jimfowler was saying.
:doh: :bang:
Makes perfect sense now, Jim.
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Re: Making your own panels with a desktop CNC

Post by nateflanigan » Thu Aug 27, 2020 7:48 am

It's dawning on me how different engraving is from milling. In researching floating heads it seems like spring loaded bit holders could be a good solution. For example...
http://www.2linc.com/engraving_mini_1-4.htm#order

http://cnc-aid.com

Something like this is more appealing to me than mapping the z axis.

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Re: Making your own panels with a desktop CNC

Post by devinw1 » Thu Aug 27, 2020 10:40 am

nateflanigan wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 7:48 am
It's dawning on me how different engraving is from milling. In researching floating heads it seems like spring loaded bit holders could be a good solution. For example...
http://www.2linc.com/engraving_mini_1-4.htm#order

http://cnc-aid.com

Something like this is more appealing to me than mapping the z axis.
NYCCNC mentions the spring engraver bit in this vide (he said they never could get it dialed in, but not to say it can't work):





BTW RE: mist cooling. I have outfitted my 6040 with a really cheap setup from amazon ($30), my air compressor and a bottle of KoolMist solution and it works REALLY well. Definitely recommend.

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Re: Making your own panels with a desktop CNC

Post by MuadMusic » Thu Aug 27, 2020 12:06 pm

devinw1 wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 10:40 am

BTW RE: mist cooling. I have outfitted my 6040 with a really cheap setup from amazon ($30), my air compressor and a bottle of KoolMist solution and it works REALLY well. Definitely recommend.
Share a video???

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Re: Making your own panels with a desktop CNC

Post by devinw1 » Thu Aug 27, 2020 3:16 pm

MuadMusic wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 12:06 pm
devinw1 wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 10:40 am

BTW RE: mist cooling. I have outfitted my 6040 with a really cheap setup from amazon ($30), my air compressor and a bottle of KoolMist solution and it works REALLY well. Definitely recommend.
Share a video???
Here's some pics of the setup. I just have the air lines suspended above right now, but when i re-do the gantry later (I have some mods planned) I will try and run them through cable chains to clean it up. I have an extra pressure regulator mounted below the machine and set to 30psi and it allows a quick disconnect point if I need to use the compressor elsewhere. Coolant is KoolMist (blue stuff. it's like $50 a jug but it's a concentrate so you mix it way down and it will basically last forever). You can also just turn the air on if you want to run dry and just want some better chip evacuation.
mist1.jpg
mist2.jpg
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Re: Making your own panels with a desktop CNC

Post by KSS » Fri Aug 28, 2020 1:19 am

Spring loaded cutters and what I've been talking about are wholly different things.

The Diamond -or carbide- Drag emthod is yet another thing.

I wouldn't spend 89 dollars on a F.E.T when I can do a proper floating head with nosecone for the same or less.

Step away from the IMO 'snake oil' marketing and consider what happens when a spring loaded rotating cutter traverses a toolpath. What happens at the inevitable showdowns and speedups in travel rate? What about surface hardness variations? Cutter sharpness variations?

Non-rotating diamond drag is a staple of the awards engraving business. There the DOC is dependent on the spring pressure and the hardness difference between the diamond or carbide and the -usually- soft metal panel. Compounded by the relatively slight variations in pressure due to non co-planar machine travels and material surface.

Adding rotation to this well-known, understood and well-balanced equation is a misstep, IMO.

Spring loaded rotating cutting increases variability. Fixed cutter projection distance beyond a nosecone and spring or gravity compliant Z to deal with material surface plane variation is a much more controlled situation.
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Re: Making your own panels with a desktop CNC

Post by KSS » Fri Aug 28, 2020 1:39 am

On the examples page of the 2linc site, you can see that the too slowly cut "S" on the right looks just like what you posted.
-----------------------
I'll need to read the patents, but some of this just doesn't pass the smell test. But i do notice they're *not* using light duty hobby level mills. These are full blown heavy duty, rigid machining centers. At least that's what it appears to be in the cropped pics. Apples and oranges when compared to machines in this thread.

It's unclear where exactly the float is taking place in the 2linc product. Because they suggest adding nosecones for precise work, which would mean the float has to be other than the cutter, or the nosecone has become a rigid surface. Either that or the cutter -if it has axial float- will have variable projection from the nosecone based on speed, sharpness, material variation, etc. Which seems to be inline with their other claims.

In short, I'd want some really clear answers before accepting their claims. Not sure how motivated I am to read the patents, but maybe I'll get to it at some point. Feel pretty much the same about the other posted link.

Doesn't mean i'm right, they both might have developed something really innovative and operationally fantastic. At the moment, I have a different belief.
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Re: Making your own panels with a desktop CNC

Post by KSS » Fri Aug 28, 2020 1:45 am

Another point about the 2linc product. The worst thing you can do with a high-speed spindle is increase the distance from its front bearings to the tool tip.
Think about how much distance, weight and complexity that setup would add to your router. If it even could be made to fit on yor machine at all.
That product is designed for a different type of machine than what you have.

Personally I wouldn't feel safe standing anywhere in a potential line-of-fire if you had that on a wood router!

The quick-change tooling developed for routers by the guys who made the carvewright machines already are known for increasing runout and thowing pieces. And that quickchange adds only an inch or two.

Be careful if you entertain this choice!
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Re: Making your own panels with a desktop CNC

Post by nateflanigan » Sun Aug 30, 2020 7:40 am

Oops. Clobbered another bit. This is a mistake I've made a few times, I run the job, then after the machine returns to zero I jog it out of the way. In this case I wanted to rerun the job just to see what happened but ran it from this random out of the way position. The results speak for themselves.

Image

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Re: Making your own panels with a desktop CNC

Post by nateflanigan » Sun Aug 30, 2020 7:47 am

Points well taken about the spring loaded gizmos. I don't want to just throw money at the problem but I feel like it's time to retreat for a minute, sell some gear and stock up on accessories like a mister, an 1/8 collet, a variety of bits (more than one of them!!!) etc. A friend of mine gave me a really solid machine table, interested to see if that makes a difference.

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Re: Making your own panels with a desktop CNC

Post by jimfowler » Sun Aug 30, 2020 8:40 am

nateflanigan wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 7:40 am
Oops. Clobbered another bit. This is a mistake I've made a few times, I run the job, then after the machine returns to zero I jog it out of the way. In this case I wanted to rerun the job just to see what happened but ran it from this random out of the way position. The results speak for themselves.

Image
Establishing machine home and part zero will all but eliminate this from happening. If you have your WCS established you can run the program with the spindle anywhere in space and it should know where it is and where it needs to be.

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Re: Making your own panels with a desktop CNC

Post by revtor » Sun Aug 30, 2020 8:58 am

I use diamond drag bits without spring loaded anything. With a freshly flattened section of spoilboard and the panel blank held in place with double sided tape, you set the “pressure” by adjusting the depth of “cut”. .002? .004? Etc. As with all of this, trial and error. -Works well (enough) for me.
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Re: Making your own panels with a desktop CNC

Post by revtor » Sun Aug 30, 2020 9:01 am

Anyone have any thoughts on replacing a trim router with a real spindle? In terms of size/hp/rpm . I’d like something of at least the same performance but with the benefits of less runout and less NOISE!

Thanks
Steve
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Re: Making your own panels with a desktop CNC

Post by nateflanigan » Sun Aug 30, 2020 11:40 am

Establishing machine home and part zero will all but eliminate this from happening. If you have your WCS established you can run the program with the spindle anywhere in space and it should know where it is and where it needs to be.
That's one of the drawbacks of this machine, it doesn't have a machine home without purchasing this controller accessory. There's this way in that the machine can get "lost" I found, I haven't observed it enough to say for sure what causes it or under what circumstances it happens. It doesn't happen during a job or anything like that. I plan on calling next wave about it just to understand if there's something wrong or just something I need to be aware of but, I'm waiting until I understand better what's happening.
I use diamond drag bits without spring loaded anything. With a freshly flattened section of spoilboard and the panel blank held in place with double sided tape, you set the “pressure” by adjusting the depth of “cut”. .002? .004? Etc. As with all of this, trial and error. -Works well (enough) for me.
I plan on trying a diamond drag soon, they seem like they could be good for this. Any pointers?
Anyone have any thoughts on replacing a trim router with a real spindle? In terms of size/hp/rpm . I’d like something of at least the same performance but with the benefits of less runout and less NOISE!
No, but the company that makes my machine sells a spindle as an option/upgrade for some of their bigger machines, may be apples and oranges but you could use it as a reference.
https://www.nextwaveautomation.com/shop ... p114869870

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Re: Making your own panels with a desktop CNC

Post by revtor » Sun Aug 30, 2020 1:21 pm

Pointers for the diamond drag .. use single line fonts. Experiment. That’s it!

I’ve gotta research the spindle sizes, capacity etc....
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Re: Making your own panels with a desktop CNC

Post by jimfowler » Sun Aug 30, 2020 5:03 pm

revtor wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 9:01 am
Anyone have any thoughts on replacing a trim router with a real spindle? In terms of size/hp/rpm . I’d like something of at least the same performance but with the benefits of less runout and less NOISE!

Thanks
Steve
I did just that on my MillRight machine. Water-cooled spindle for noise abatement. I think my spindle is 1.5kw...which was dictated by not wanting to go through the hassle of wiring my basement for 220V. 24k rpm. 80mm. https://www.automationtechnologiesinc.c ... -spindles/

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Re: Making your own panels with a desktop CNC

Post by jimfowler » Sun Aug 30, 2020 5:46 pm

"That's one of the drawbacks of this machine, it doesn't have a machine home without purchasing this controller accessory."

If I understand you correctly that's utter bullshit. It'd be like selling a car and saying "Oh, you want a steering wheel? That's extra."

Does your machine have limit switches on the X, Y and Z axes?

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Re: Making your own panels with a desktop CNC

Post by revtor » Sun Aug 30, 2020 7:15 pm

Thanks for the links Nate and Jim!
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Re: Making your own panels with a desktop CNC

Post by revtor » Mon Aug 31, 2020 3:07 pm

Another thing I played around with that worked pretty well was aluminum blackening solution immediately after engraving or diamond dragging on a clear anodized aluminum panel. It didn’t touch the anodize so that stayed silver but where it was freshly cut turns deep flat black.
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Re: Making your own panels with a desktop CNC

Post by KSS » Mon Aug 31, 2020 10:04 pm

jimfowler wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 5:46 pm
"That's one of the drawbacks of this machine, it doesn't have a machine home without purchasing this controller accessory."

If I understand you correctly that's utter bullshit. It'd be like selling a car and saying "Oh, you want a steering wheel? That's extra."

Does your machine have limit switches on the X, Y and Z axes?
It's not unusual for a desktop machine to exist and to be sold without limit or home switches. Many companies hold them as upgrades and have done so for a very long time. Steppers and drivers are not damaged by running against mechanical end stops. Though parts of the machine *may* be. So you have to look into ths aspect before employing brute solutions to the issue.

And home is not necessary since program zero is generally established -on this level of machine- for each part *after* fixturing or other hold-down.

Jogging a machine into its mechancial end stops and setting that as machine home is a workable solution once you've determined your steppers are not so powerful they'll destroy something in the process. And if they are then jog or MDI into a 'spacer' just as you would for Z as part of your startup. I've used Tool steel lathe bits for this as they're inexpensive and ground flat and square to specific size. Cigarette paper as usual for the fine 'feel' if needed.
Or simply put a metal plate at home end of travels -or move your tool setting plate- and use the Z setting method for the other axes too.

Lot of ways to skin this cat that don't have to cost money. Time, yes.
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Re: Making your own panels with a desktop CNC

Post by KSS » Mon Aug 31, 2020 10:08 pm

I'll third the water-cooled spindle solution. But they're quite a bit heavier than the router they replace, so make sure your machine is up to the -usually- additional load they bring.
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Re: Making your own panels with a desktop CNC

Post by devinw1 » Tue Sep 01, 2020 11:24 am

Re: the limit switches. Yeah, basically every 6040 router machine sold like the one I bought doesn't come with any switches. It's annoying, but not hard to add. I did it with a $22 bag of nice switches from Amazon and a bunch of shielded wire. It's easiest to wire them normally closed in series so you can just use one input for each axis, and you can have Mach4 or Mach3 use a limit as a home switch as well.

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Re: Making your own panels with a desktop CNC

Post by Synthsense » Tue Sep 01, 2020 3:20 pm

Interesting thread. I see this world of CNC or Laser engraving has a Learning Curve to fight for, but with new and cheaper laser printers and CNCs emerging from everywhere, its a step up that makes sense
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Re: Making your own panels with a desktop CNC

Post by KSS » Tue Sep 01, 2020 6:33 pm

devinw1 wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 11:24 am
It's easiest to wire them normally closed in series so you can just use one input for each axis, and you can have Mach4 or Mach3 use a limit as a home switch as well.
This also lets you easily change which end is home. Another useful solution to part won't fit on my machine style problems.

Though correctly choosing gantry movement as X instead of the more often seen BS of hobby CNC where the axis carrying Z -usually left-right motion- is improperly called X means you won;t run into the problem as often iun the first place.

A gantry router is 90 degreees from a typical mill or machining center orientation. Think about it. Make the change sooner than later and you won't have to unlearn it when you gain experience for why it's the norm and standard professionally. Calling left-right X -on a gantry router with gantry motion toward and away fron you- is instant newbie alert. ;)
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Re: Making your own panels with a desktop CNC

Post by devinw1 » Wed Sep 02, 2020 11:19 am

KSS wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 6:33 pm
devinw1 wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 11:24 am
It's easiest to wire them normally closed in series so you can just use one input for each axis, and you can have Mach4 or Mach3 use a limit as a home switch as well.
This also lets you easily change which end is home. Another useful solution to part won't fit on my machine style problems.

Though correctly choosing gantry movement as X instead of the more often seen BS of hobby CNC where the axis carrying Z -usually left-right motion- is improperly called X means you won;t run into the problem as often iun the first place.

A gantry router is 90 degreees from a typical mill or machining center orientation. Think about it. Make the change sooner than later and you won't have to unlearn it when you gain experience for why it's the norm and standard professionally. Calling left-right X -on a gantry router with gantry motion toward and away fron you- is instant newbie alert. ;)
Yeah, it's weird how the router companies seem to fixed label the axis like that.

I have mine set sideways on my table (so gantry moves along the longest axis perpendicular to me). I have this axis as X, so that everything is the same coordinates as it would be on a regular milling machine.

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