44 Key FATAR group buy, minimoog cases

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Spliffgroen
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Re: 44 Key FATAR group buy, minimoog cases

Post by Spliffgroen » Tue Feb 09, 2021 4:46 am

KSS wrote:
Tue Feb 09, 2021 4:22 am
Bubble contacts are standard. I'd be surprised if the moog re-issue was weighted. Or even semi-weighted. The original P-R's certainly weren't.
Mono AT is indeed a useful add. Can be simply and easily done to OG mmgs with P-Rs too.

about the contacts: on their site you've got "dynamic or monophonic bubble contacts" - I guess "dynamic" in stead of "monophonic" would be nice, so you can make a velocity cv out. - they both bubble contacts but there is a difference right?

About the weight: there was a list published several years ago fatar types on synth is stated that the mmri is weighted (encapsulated). ofc the OG wasn't but the reissue is.

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Re: 44 Key FATAR group buy, minimoog cases

Post by KSS » Tue Feb 09, 2021 4:50 am

Thank you. I didn't realize they even offered single contact type. Have only ever seen-used the dual -aka dynamic.
Genuinely surprised the mmri has weighted keys.

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Re: 44 Key FATAR group buy, minimoog cases

Post by Spliffgroen » Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:40 am

I never played with the mmri so I just have to trust the information, if someone have they may verify it? although I think its nice to go weighted.

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Re: 44 Key FATAR group buy, minimoog cases

Post by Kevin Mitchell » Tue Feb 09, 2021 11:08 am

One confusion is that fatar lists the TP/9S series with the optional unweighted or weighted versions. I think at some points folk started to refer to the weighted version as semi weighted - not sure how that started.
Anyways, the weighted version has the ideal response for monophonic playing action so that's the clear winner and I'd be dumbfounded if they had chosen the lesser.

Purchasing any keybed without aftertouch and dynamic contacts would be a missed opportunity. However, if we're putting this in a vintage replica/workalike they wouldn't be necessary. I'm sure the consensuses is that we'd rather have the option than not.

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Re: 44 Key FATAR group buy, minimoog cases

Post by mlvesecky » Wed Feb 10, 2021 5:16 pm

Hello again everyone! still stoked to see so much interest, I will update the list of interested parties this evening.

Yes after thinking about it, it would absolutely be a wasted opportunity to not have AT. The reissue Minimoog had jacks on the back for velocity and aftertouch and I have been conceptualizing a microcontroller that could be a drop in replacement for PR keybaords with an appropriately sized FATAR for any or most PR equipped vintage synths. It would include the option to wire up jack on the back like the MM reissue has. I have an octave cat so id love to put a Fatar in that instead of dealing with j wires. I also have been toying with the idea of adding possible midi DINs.

Except for the obvious holes for velocity, AT, and midi, I would intend to make these reversible, so you could omit those bonus features and not have to modify your synth. This is all of course down the road and probably more appropriate for the Minimoog build thread but I wanted to give people here an idea of where I'm going with the keyboard side of things and that if I'm making a whole keyboard controller id be interested in expanding it beyond the MM replica and maybe enable any vintage synth of a certain era to have a FATAR.

Stay safe and stay healthy!

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Re: 44 Key FATAR group buy, minimoog cases

Post by Kevin Mitchell » Thu Feb 11, 2021 8:31 am

With my clone the only part holding me back is the the chassis construction - big learning curve with the software.

Anyways, I had planned to leave out holes for some of the I/Os. That way one could easily modify it to suite their vision. But if you're trying to accommodate a kit, a fully drilled version would be the way to go. It just depends on what the keybed & controller can support.

I have some questions about the hardware you're going to use. Since you have reproduction panels finding the correct fitting rocker switches will be a challenge. If you were to peruse a kit, the panels and chassis front plate would need some reworking for modern rocker switches.

Perhaps a conversation to peruse in the other thread or email.

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Re: 44 Key FATAR group buy, minimoog cases

Post by gslug » Thu Feb 11, 2021 12:44 pm

Kevin Mitchell wrote:
Thu Feb 11, 2021 8:31 am
I have some questions about the hardware you're going to use. Since you have reproduction panels finding the correct fitting rocker switches will be a challenge. If you were to peruse a kit, the panels and chassis front plate would need some reworking for modern rocker switches.

Perhaps a conversation to peruse in the other thread or email.
These seem to be the closest available: https://www.digikey.com/en/products/fil ... ALlCCAL59A

The mounting holes are closer together, but that can be solved by snipping off the wings and mounting them to an adaptor PCB with standoffs. I have Kicad/gerber files for such a board if anyone wants them.
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Re: 44 Key FATAR group buy, minimoog cases

Post by Kevin Mitchell » Thu Feb 11, 2021 1:25 pm

gslug wrote:
Thu Feb 11, 2021 12:44 pm
These seem to be the closest available: https://www.digikey.com/en/products/fil ... ALlCCAL59A

The mounting holes are closer together, but that can be solved by snipping off the wings and mounting them to an adaptor PCB with standoffs. I have Kicad/gerber files for such a board if anyone wants them.
Those exactly. They're used in the reissue (moog must of had light blue custom ordered) I don't think snapping the wings would be necessary.
But the rockers are a different size and won't fit in a reproduction face panel, front plate or the LHC. If I'm wrong that would be awesome!
They were also used in the moog pedals.

Did you do the gerber files for another project like the MME or Crowminius?

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Re: 44 Key FATAR group buy, minimoog cases

Post by gslug » Thu Feb 11, 2021 3:20 pm

Kevin Mitchell wrote:
Thu Feb 11, 2021 1:25 pm
Those exactly. They're used in the reissue (moog must of had light blue custom ordered) I don't think snapping the wings would be necessary.
But the rockers are a different size and won't fit in a reproduction face panel, front plate or the LHC. If I'm wrong that would be awesome!
They were also used in the moog pedals.

Did you do the gerber files for another project like the MME or Crowminius?
They seem to fit a repro LHC:
IMG_20210211_200856.jpg
IMG_20210211_200834.jpg
I got the panels and switches, and made the PCB for an MME, but never got around to finishing it, mainly due to the case.
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Re: 44 Key FATAR group buy, minimoog cases

Post by Kevin Mitchell » Thu Feb 11, 2021 4:26 pm

gslug wrote:
Thu Feb 11, 2021 3:20 pm
They seem to fit a repro LHC:IMG_20210211_200856.jpgIMG_20210211_200834.jpg

I got the panels and switches, and made the PCB for an MME, but never got around to finishing it, mainly due to the case.
Oh I see! Cut the wings to mount the PCB. I was thinking you had done large control boards with everything on it then mount the PCBs to the front plate - like the reissue. They seem to fit very close to the old ones! I've been meaning to snag a few for myself to compare.

I had lucked out and found a source of NOS switch. The mounting wings were lower than the correct ones, but everything else was right. Nothing .25" standoffs couldn't fix.

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Re: 44 Key FATAR group buy, minimoog cases

Post by KSS » Fri Feb 12, 2021 4:37 am

When I was working on my mmg clone kit several years ago, I was made aware that 'someone' was already doing a big build when I tried to order the colors needed for the rocker switches. The sales rep asked me why 'everyone' was now wanting these same colors they'd just made for a large custom order. That's how i learned Moog was re-issuing the mmg. Well before it had been announced. Killed my project immediately.

Remember, at that time it was a given that Moog was 'never' going to do a mmg re-issue. :(

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Re: 44 Key FATAR group buy, minimoog cases

Post by MikeDB » Fri Feb 12, 2021 6:27 am

KSS wrote:
Fri Feb 12, 2021 4:37 am
When I was working on my mmg clone kit several years ago, I was made aware that 'someone' was already doing a big build when I tried to order the colors needed for the rocker switches. The sales rep asked me why 'everyone' was now wanting these same colors they'd just made for a large custom order. That's how i learned Moog was re-issuing the mmg. Well before it had been announced. Killed my project immediately.

Remember, at that time it was a given that Moog was 'never' going to do a mmg re-issue. :(
Welcome to the world of market analysis. It's being able to spot clues like this in advance that makes one good at it or not.

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Re: 44 Key FATAR group buy, minimoog cases

Post by MrRoper » Fri Feb 12, 2021 1:06 pm

Just chiming in to register my interest in the case and keybed group buy if you’re able to include UK buyers? I have one of the MME kits that were made with faulty control boards mostly built just waiting for a case and this sounds absolutely perfect!!! Also FWIW would be very interested in the keyboard with AT!

Amazing!

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Re: 44 Key FATAR group buy, minimoog cases

Post by MikeDB » Fri Feb 12, 2021 4:05 pm

MrRoper wrote:
Fri Feb 12, 2021 1:06 pm
Just chiming in to register my interest in the case and keybed group buy if you’re able to include UK buyers? I have one of the MME kits that were made with faulty control boards mostly built just waiting for a case and this sounds absolutely perfect!!! Also FWIW would be very interested in the keyboard with AT!

Amazing!
I think the cost of VAT, transport and insurance, especially with the keybeds traversing the pond twice will make it extremely expensive. Maybe we need to find a good woodworker and metalworker in the UK to exactly duplicate the US design, and have the keybeds shipped direct from Italy to one of us.

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Re: 44 Key FATAR group buy, minimoog cases

Post by mlvesecky » Sun Feb 14, 2021 6:06 pm

Thank you for the pictures! this is very helpful! a PCB adapter will certainly be necessary but seems a to be a perfect solution! I would love to have orange rockers but that may be impossible given the quantities needed to make a run, but I will explore it. Maybe another group buy could get us there?

Glad to hear there is interest in the case! my ability to make them is basically what spurred me on to start this project so I'm glad I can be of help to others looking to do the same. I will be building a prototype to the original specifications as soon as I get the reproduction parts in early to mid march.

Still wrapping my head around Fusion 360 but once I am a little more comfortable I will start planning out the case in 3d.I will be posting updates about the case both here and in the build thread.

I'm not trying to jump the gun so I will withhold from taking case orders until I have an assembled unit I can guarantee will correctly fit everything. But I will keep a list of those interested. My hope is to be ready to ship the cases by mid summer. I will probably make batches of 5 or 10 depending on demand and what the final manufacturing process looks like. Still exploring options for the faceplates, badges and wheel panel. does anyone have insight into the crinkle enamel process that the original used? I can certainly do laser etched aluminum either anodized or powder coated, but I would prefer the original method if possible.

I will definitely ship to the UK but the shipping cost I predict will be high, but not astronomical. I will explore prices once I've built a prototype and know what its weight will be. If it is indeed astronomical I will certainly be open to having someone in the UK produce the design, metalwork is relatively easy I imagine any metal shop could make the metal part of the chassis as long as they have a drill pattern. I have a machinist drill press, a small milling machine, and a metal brake, and that should be everything you need.

Thanks for all the support and input! it is incredibly motivating to see the positive response. This project is currently in its incubation period but will kick into high gear towards the end of march and into April as I receive parts and progress with the PCB design.

I am going to be launching a website this spring initially offering handmade wooden side panels for a range of synths, and small batches of Eurorack cases with hand cut joinery such as dovetails or wedged through tenons. Wood type, joinery and overall appearance will vary by batch. After the run here on the forums I will sell Minimoog cases and DIY kits as well as fully assembled units through the website when those things are ready for prime time.

Back to the main topic it looks like we will certainly be hitting the minimum order so I will begin taking commitments once synthcube hears about price from FATAR. List updated.

Lots of cool stuff in the works, all this social isolation has at least gotten me motivated. Hope everyone is staying healthy and continuing to make music! :goo: :goo: :goo:

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Re: 44 Key FATAR group buy, minimoog cases

Post by KSS » Mon Feb 15, 2021 5:02 am

mlvesecky wrote:
Sun Feb 14, 2021 6:06 pm
I will probably make batches of 5 or 10 depending on demand and what the final manufacturing process looks like.

Have you made things like this before?
Still exploring options for the faceplates, badges and wheel panel. does anyone have insight into the crinkle enamel process that the original used? I can certainly do laser etched aluminum either anodized or powder coated, but I would prefer the original method if possible.
Questions like this are the reason for the first one above. You seem unfamiliar with minimoogs? The first mmgs used the same panel process as the modulars. What is now commonly known as metalphoto; a selective photographic anodizing process. The 'crinkle' is part of the later used labels themselves. This also solved a problem moog had with covering the fasteners of the dual hinges. As seen in my drawing above. <--You won't need the second hinge. Moog did away with it for their reboot as well. Which means you could use a selective anodizing process for the panel. Or UV printing. Otherwise you're going to need to purchase repro labels, which will have the crinkled surface finish. When George Mattson developed the MMM systems he used similar labels and would be a good resource for the suitable mfr.

I wish you luck and success but frankly it looks like you might be over your head. <-- Feel free to use this as motivation. But also as a caution. The things you're describing take a lot more time, effort, skill and yes, money than you might be assuming. I am of course *also* assuming things based on what you've written so far.
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Re: 44 Key FATAR group buy, minimoog cases

Post by mlvesecky » Mon Feb 15, 2021 12:36 pm

KSS wrote:
Mon Feb 15, 2021 5:02 am
Questions like this are the reason for the first one above. You seem unfamiliar with minimoogs?
I don't think asking about an obscure and outdated finishing process implies my ignorance of minimoogs. The crinkle process is what I am having trouble finding details on, I know what it is, but there are many different textured enamels and cannot find details on which one/what method will create a similar texture as the results vary greatly. It does not seem like you have information on this either. It seems I will just have to experiment. Yes, the first few didn't have enamel, but when I say original I am referring to the vast majority of the original run which is the look the people associate with them. I guess I should have been more specific. IMO the crinkle finish is an iconic part of the design, hence why I am exploring it, rather than taking the easy route of anodization or powered coating (yes I know the originals weren't powder coated.)

I Have only played a reissue and do not own one as I have stated previously. I am not trying to hide the fact that I am figuring this out through online resources, the fact that I do not have one is exactly why I am starting this project. This is why I am not taking case orders until I have a prototype I am happy with, I am very meticulous and will probably go through 3 or 4 revisions before the final product is ready.

I have made much more complex woodworking projects and the metalworking is very basic. With Yusynths case resources making the wooden parts are no problem. The printed panels are only as difficult as reproducing the designs in CAD, something I cannot do until my own reproductions arrive in march. There are local services who can water jet cut and silk screen or engrave panels for me. I personally prefer the enamel, I just do not know any services that do enamel locally and wanted to see if anyone had insight into someone online who does it professionally before I start messing around with DIY methods.

Because I plan on selling these eventually I may "rebrand" the panel to not use the Moog name or logo, but still have everything be sized identically so if people want to find "true" reproduction panels they can put them on my case. I still would like these to be as close to authentic as possible.

I certainly do not believe I am getting in over my head with the case, in fact given my shop's resources (this isn't a garage operation) I seem to be the only one capable/willing to do this at all. The proof is in the pudding though, and you will see plenty of case progress over the next couple months, but right now I am focused on parts acquisition and making this keyboard group buy a success.

This is a long term labor of love that I am determined to get right. Just want to stress that this isn't some lark that will be abandoned as soon as I hit a roadblock. Every problem has a solution!
Last edited by mlvesecky on Mon Feb 15, 2021 1:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 44 Key FATAR group buy, minimoog cases

Post by Kevin Mitchell » Mon Feb 15, 2021 1:08 pm

You can always reach out to us for the details.

Keep us posted! Looking forward to seeing your synth cabinet work.
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Re: 44 Key FATAR group buy, minimoog cases

Post by Builderbc12 » Mon Feb 15, 2021 2:25 pm

Hi I’m new to this thread and I am interested in purchasing one of the Minimoog Cases

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Re: 44 Key FATAR group buy, minimoog cases

Post by KSS » Tue Feb 16, 2021 4:11 am

mlvesecky wrote:
Mon Feb 15, 2021 12:36 pm
I don't think asking about an obscure and outdated finishing process implies my ignorance of minimoogs.
There's nothing obscure about this. Outdated maybe, due to environmental regs changing formulations and processes. I guess the first thing we should clarify is where you are meaning to apply the crinkled finish? Because the only place that might have any crinkled finish is the LHC panel. The main panel is not a finish, but a huge plastic label as I described you might source using Geo. Mattson's source. FWIW, you could also do the LHC that way too, which would make your job MUCH easier. And there is precedent for that type of LHC finish for mmg's too. <--And it's 'crinkly'. The label.
The crinkle process is what I am having trouble finding details on, I know what it is, but there are many different textured enamels and cannot find details on which one/what method will create a similar texture as the results vary greatly. It does not seem like you have information on this either.
LOL for the underlined. Okay, so we're talking only about the LHC, because that's the ONLY paint on a mini besides the black of the particle board bottom.<--Which should be changed to BB ply. The first mistake is that it's not enamel. It is-was Sherwin Williams Polane. Hysol is another brand name for a similar formula. Though Hysol is-was usually aimed more at screen printing than backgrounds. The method is this. First you spray a smooth coat using standard atomization of your gun. Remember this is before HVLP were widely used -if at all. Then you let this standard clean flat film "flash over" as you reduce the air pressure on your standard gun, to give a spatter or texture coat. <--This is an advanced technique and will take much time to get the skill and experience to do it for a production run where you want all parts to look the 'same'. Both primary input pressure and mix levels and needle position are all involved. As is timing. Guys who used to do this regularly had put an additional valve for air input at the handle of their gun to quickly make the needed change and return to 'normal' levels after.
So that's a brief explanation on the crinkle process. More commonly called texture coat or spatter coat, depending on the size of the droplets in the 2nd coat. For a mmg LHC, it'd be a texture coat. As you can see I have no information about the process. :sarcasm:
It seems I will just have to experiment. Yes, the first few didn't have enamel, but when I say original I am referring to the vast majority of the original run which is the look the people associate with them. I guess I should have been more specific. IMO the crinkle finish is an iconic part of the design, hence why I am exploring it, rather than taking the easy route of anodization or powered coating (yes I know the originals weren't powder coated.)
Yes, you will need to experiment if you choose anything over dual pre-printed and textured plastic labels; main and LHC. Because nearly all the modern texture coats do not look the same as the classic process just described and used for so many vintage synths of the 70s. There ARE some powders which come VERY close. But most of the ratttle can textured finishes are too fine -like sandpaper- or too coarse to look like the original mmg LHCs. Even at the correct size, their variation in size and shape misses the look of the old 2 step process.
At least part of the reason for this is that many of the modern finishes have different formulations and do not flash and meld the same as the old process. Both Polane and Hysol are catalyzed finishes. It IS possible to do a mmg LHC style texture with a water-base or modern catalyzed finish, but it's going to take a lot of experimentation. Frustration. If you're already decided for a non label path, I strongly suggest you look into the textured powders. Their texturing is built in and once you get the right one you will have consistency from there on out.

Another option I mentioned only briefly is the use of a Roland Versa UV printer. Again this favors silver sides to the LHC -as on the moog modular and some mmgs- rather than full black. But I have had some conversations with Rich aka flareless on MW about how to get a full black print in two steps at another MW topic in the 5U section. You can read about it in that part of MW. UV printing of this type is a REALLY good option for what you're trying to do.
I have made much more complex woodworking projects and the metalworking is very basic.
You might find this to be less so than you think. But it depends on the tools, skills and experience you have, so I'll again wish you luck and success while cautioning that the project may be more than you think it is right now.
With Yusynths case resources making the wooden parts are no problem.
What joinery do you intend to use? Will you make the cases to the original standard? Or to the later non-rounded front and intentional error-hiding recess version? Do you understand the differences needed for single or dual hinge? To both the wood and the metal? FATAR vs P-R?
The printed panels are only as difficult as reproducing the designs in CAD, something I cannot do until my own reproductions arrive in march.
This will take longer than you think to get exactly right. There is much you can do before your repro panel arrives. Using some very good -and some not so good- already online mmg main panel layouts. Like the ones at crazy patroche's site. Pull in one of these online images as background and re-create yours over it. Then when your repro panel arrives you can fix and re-scale any errors having already gotten the bulk of the work done.
There are local services who can water jet cut
Both water jet and laser may have overly rough edges unsuitable for this panel. Expect to do secondary finishing -or pay for them to do so.
I personally prefer the enamel, I just do not know any services that do enamel locally
Where is 'local' for you?
I certainly do not believe I am getting in over my head with the case,
I hope you are right. But to think that you're the only one who could do this is inaccurate. And could be foolhardy.
The proof is in the pudding though, and you will see plenty of case progress over the next couple months,
I look forward to this. And just to be clear, I'm in favor of you having success. But even after you've made one unit as a test, you're still a long ways from a successful run for others. Ask Synthcube about that. IMO, your current timelines are FAR too hopeful. Start with how long it takes to get the switches in orange and light blue. For what its worth, the lot size required is not so large as you might think. So do give them a call and get that started sooner than later. Or, better, re-adjust your timelines so you're not pressured into 'baking this cake' as if you've baked many similar 'cakes' already. It's going to cost a LOT of up front money to pull this off.
but right now I am focused on parts acquisition and making this keyboard group buy a success.
Keep in mind that the FATAR KBDs are slightly wider than the P-Rs. So you'll need to adjust your case dimensions for that. For sure. And as I mentioned the attachment of the P-R is five screws of a steel framed KBD where the FATAR is many more screws on a MUCH less rigid plastic frame.
Meaning that you can't simply re-make the old case and throw the FATAR into it. It WILL need re-engineering to be secure in operation and travel. I've left you some strong hints about that in pior posts and the mmg clone case drawing I shared. There's enough info in that drawing to make one if you have some building experience. It shows both a Duo-Tyne and card-edge style provisions in the metalwork. You'd use the Duo-tyne version since its in keeping with simpler and also fitting for a ribbon connected front panel PCB.
This is a long term labor of love that I am determined to get right. Just want to stress that this isn't some lark that will be abandoned as soon as I hit a roadblock. Every problem has a solution!
Glad to hear that. Only hope you keep in mind that this is an often prior tread path, and many who have done so may have advice worth listening to. First of that from me being, set your buyers expectations farther into the future. You're going to need that.
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Re: 44 Key FATAR group buy, minimoog cases

Post by Kevin Mitchell » Tue Feb 16, 2021 4:54 pm

Just for the record, a "crinkled" face plate;
Image

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Re: 44 Key FATAR group buy, minimoog cases

Post by MikeDB » Tue Feb 16, 2021 5:34 pm

Could someone fill me in on how the control surface finish affects the authenticity of the sound this will produce ? :sstorm:

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Re: 44 Key FATAR group buy, minimoog cases

Post by bgreeves » Tue Feb 16, 2021 6:50 pm

MikeDB wrote:
Tue Feb 16, 2021 5:34 pm
Could someone fill me in on how the control surface finish affects the authenticity of the sound this will produce ? :sstorm:
^^^

I'll make no attempt to dictate OP's goals for this project. Do they want to get it right down to the last detail? Great. Do they just want to get the sound of the MMG in a sturdy and reliable package? Also great.

I'll say personally that I don't care much about how authentic the thing ends up looking. I'm interested in building the circuit and putting together a nice sounding and physically sturdy synthesizer.

I think KSS makes a point about the importance of carefully choosing the scope of a remake project like this and being amenable to shrinking the scope if unexpected challenges arise.

At the same time I think OP is right to have responded defensively to a discouraging reply on a project that they're excited about. Let's focus on being kind and helpful, yeah?

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Re: 44 Key FATAR group buy, minimoog cases

Post by KSS » Wed Feb 17, 2021 3:36 am

Kevin Mitchell wrote:
Tue Feb 16, 2021 4:54 pm
Just for the record, a "crinkled" face plate;
To be accurate, this is a detail photo of the leatherette plastic main label from a production minimoog.

The earlier photo of the LHC panel showed the 'other' type of crinkled discussed in this thread.
-------------
@MikeDB
I don't believe anyone has made that claim. That's not the same as saying the control finish surface type and quality isn't important to some for many and varied reasons.
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Edit2: And here's why a label is used instead of paint. The studs for all the switch standoffs are a press-thru-hole PEM type and show. It's possible to use the type which press in from the opposite side which is what Behringer is using for all their euro modules. But those require a milled recess of accurate size where the type seen here -and on the vast majority of mmgs- only need a punched hole. <--The metal is displaced as the top is pressed in.

Edit: And here's why that big plastic label is sold repro. They also de-laminate their thin clear top layer as can be seen in photos of -one of- Stevie Wonder's mmgs.
As I said the metalwork involved is not trivial. Moreso if one wishes to use a paint finish instead of the classic plastic labels.
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Treat utility modules as stars instead of backup singers.
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KSS
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Re: 44 Key FATAR group buy, minimoog cases

Post by KSS » Wed Feb 17, 2021 4:22 am

Here's an early R.A.Moog mini with the silver sided LHC. If OP used this look he could simply order and use a second label and not have to do any DIY screen printing. Along with making the metalwork less critical.

And you can see the black topped FH screws used for the hinge at the panel bottom in the panel detail photo. This mini has panel and LHC with the selective anodized finish like the moog modular panels. It also has the milled recess standoffs so we don't see the circles of the naked panel with plastic label type minis.

You can see the lack of contrast compared to the later screen printed label versions. This can be really bad in some types of stage lighting and was at least part of why the anodized panel type was retired.
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