DX-style Operator (Thru-Zero FM/PM oscillator - FM Ogre)

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wsy
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Post by wsy » Wed Apr 27, 2016 8:42 am

You were right- it's possible to keep the old SYNC OUT on RB9.

Here's the layout, schematic, and .fzz files.

All are GPLed, share and enjoy!

- Bill

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yan6
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Post by yan6 » Wed Apr 27, 2016 11:23 am

This is really looking good and has me very interested. Was there a panel pcb included in the distro bundle as well?

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Post by TimoRozendal » Wed Apr 27, 2016 12:56 pm

yan6 wrote:Was there a panel pcb included in the distro bundle as well?
No, I don't think so... I might make one, just checking now

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Post by wsy » Wed Apr 27, 2016 2:34 pm

TimoRozendal wrote:
yan6 wrote:Was there a panel pcb included in the distro bundle as well?
No, I don't think so... I might make one, just checking now
No, I usually fly-wire my front panels (being an MU-kind of guy, that is. At least till
two weeks ago.).

But it would probably be a good idea.

Does anyone have a pairing of jacks and pots that works well together for a thru-hole
front panel? Preferably that I can buy either at Mouser or DigiKey (in the USA?)

- Bill
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Post by TimoRozendal » Thu Apr 28, 2016 12:38 am

wsy wrote: Does anyone have a pairing of jacks and pots that works well together for a thru-hole
front panel? Preferably that I can buy either at Mouser or DigiKey (in the USA?)
- Bill
I think the standard are the Thonkiconn jacks and alpha 9mm pots, but people usually go to other place for these than digikey and mouser (though there are compatible variants available in these stores).
There is also the Kobiconn jack at mouser, a footprint for that one will also support the Thonkiconns.

btw, I will send you my idea of a breakout board via pm soon

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Post by mxmxmx » Thu Apr 28, 2016 12:43 am

wsy wrote: Here's the layout, schematic, and .fzz files.
wow, crazy routing!

any reason you didn't use the ground fill? would have made life easier, i suppose... this is how it looks here (also using fritzing):

Image

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wsy
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Post by wsy » Fri Apr 29, 2016 12:32 pm

Two questions;

1) on the Doepfer power connector- aren't you missing a row of pins? Doepfer is
2x5 (10 pins) and adding a single extra pin lets you connect it to Dotcom as well if
you isolate the Dotcom +5 and keyway "pin"


2) How did you manage to get rid of one of the op-amp packages?

- Bill
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Post by wsy » Fri Apr 29, 2016 12:45 pm

Okay, some questions/issues resolved.

This version adds a v/octave trimmer on A8 (well, A7 in reality) so you can trim
1.00000 volts/octave (or 1.200000 if you're a Buchla person)

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Post by mxmxmx » Fri Apr 29, 2016 1:36 pm

wsy wrote: 1) on the Doepfer power connector- aren't you missing a row of pins?
the 2x5 connector is on the top side, left of centre (ie, top side, in the image above / on your screen).
wsy wrote: 2) How did you manage to get rid of one of the op-amp packages?
i cheated -- for the sync in and out i've used transistor switches.

(i didn't mean to sound snooty btw (of course), it just seemed so much work! amazing.)

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Post by elmegil » Fri Apr 29, 2016 2:18 pm

wsy wrote: Doepfer is
2x5 (10 pins) and adding a single extra pin lets you connect it to Dotcom as well if
you isolate the Dotcom +5 and keyway "pin"
Ok, I'm about to try to hit the holy grail of a "single" footprint for all three major power connectors.

I already have my 2x10 Doepfer layered with my MOTM connector, this works great. But there's a lot of overlapping stuff in the middle where the grounds are, because of the larger MTA-156 size of the MOTM connector. I can put a 6 pin MTA on top of all this mess too, but I don't have a good sense of how in eagle to isolate those particular pads. And I'm thinking the Key position doesn't actually have to be isolated, since it's created by omitting that pin of the header.... So the tough one is the +5V pin...... and I guess the "not connected" one, maybe.

Any suggestions? I would think it would be related to pours and such, but I'm not sure where to look......

Edit: here's what I mean:

Image
Last edited by elmegil on Fri Apr 29, 2016 2:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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wsy
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Post by wsy » Fri Apr 29, 2016 2:22 pm

mxmxmx wrote:
wsy wrote: 1) on the Doepfer power connector- aren't you missing a row of pins?
the 2x5 connector is on the top side, left of centre (ie, top side, in the image above / on your screen).
Yes, I saw the 2x4 + 1 pin.... but shouldn't it be 2x5 + 1 pin (the +1 in either case is for
the alternative Dotcom power bus...
wsy wrote: 2) How did you manage to get rid of one of the op-amp packages?
i cheated -- for the sync in and out i've used transistor switches.

(i didn't mean to sound snooty btw (of course), it just seemed so much work! amazing.)
Transistors! Discrete! How amazing! :-)

So, a FET turns on a pullup ? The problem I had with that was that the FET (or NPN,
doesn't matter) was going to have it's emitter go up in voltage, unless of course you
invert the sense of the whole pin (easily done in software).

Let me think about that. Certainly it could be done with a current mirror...

Thank you for helping educate me!

- Bill
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Post by Eloc » Fri Apr 29, 2016 2:44 pm

wsy wrote:
mxmxmx wrote:
wsy wrote: 1) on the Doepfer power connector- aren't you missing a row of pins?
the 2x5 connector is on the top side, left of centre (ie, top side, in the image above / on your screen).
Yes, I saw the 2x4 + 1 pin.... but shouldn't it be 2x5 + 1 pin (the +1 in either case is for
the alternative Dotcom power bus...
I think that the confusion here is that the grey square pad on mxmxmx's layout is pin 1 of the 2x5 header (not a SMD pad or something), and there is no +1 pin for dotcom on that layout, just euro header.

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Post by wsy » Fri Apr 29, 2016 3:55 pm

Eloc wrote:
wsy wrote:
mxmxmx wrote:
wsy wrote: 1) on the Doepfer power connector- aren't you missing a row of pins?
the 2x5 connector is on the top side, left of centre (ie, top side, in the image above / on your screen).
Yes, I saw the 2x4 + 1 pin.... but shouldn't it be 2x5 + 1 pin (the +1 in either case is for
the alternative Dotcom power bus...
I think that the confusion here is that the grey square pad on mxmxmx's layout is pin 1 of the 2x5 header (not a SMD pad or something), and there is no +1 pin for dotcom on that layout, just euro header.
Ahhhh.... that would do it! Square pad == pin 1, not square pad == smd pad for input cap.

Thanks!

- Bill
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Post by diablojoy » Fri Apr 29, 2016 11:39 pm

Ok, I'm about to try to hit the holy grail of a "single" footprint for all three major power connectors.
been a while since I have used eagle but you would need to create a custom part from scratch. I did one in Freepcb but that wont transfer into eagle
pretty sure Matthias - Fonik - has already been down this road
and has a custom footprint worked out in eagle .
he might be willing to share it , ask him
It probably wont happen today but if it does it definitely wont go smoothly.

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Post by mxmxmx » Sat Apr 30, 2016 1:47 am

wsy wrote:
Eloc wrote:
wsy wrote:
mxmxmx wrote:
wsy wrote: 1) on the Doepfer power connector- aren't you missing a row of pins?
the 2x5 connector is on the top side, left of centre (ie, top side, in the image above / on your screen).
Yes, I saw the 2x4 + 1 pin.... but shouldn't it be 2x5 + 1 pin (the +1 in either case is for
the alternative Dotcom power bus...
I think that the confusion here is that the grey square pad on mxmxmx's layout is pin 1 of the 2x5 header (not a SMD pad or something), and there is no +1 pin for dotcom on that layout, just euro header.
Ahhhh.... that would do it! Square pad == pin 1, not square pad == smd pad for input cap.
yeah, as Eloc said; it just came out a little strange in that render.

re sync out, ... not that i'm in the position to help educate anyone, but yep, 10k into a NPN and pull-up/divider at the collector, so i'm getting ~ 8.5V pulses. that was entirely because i was running out of space, but a sot-23 part would still fit. i'm not sure what the expected behaviour is, but it didn't look suspicious:

Image

(sync out - output, at ~6kHz)

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Post by diablojoy » Sat Aug 06, 2016 4:09 am

It was bought to my attention that there was an issue with C29 on my boards
causing instability of the 2.8v LDO
I have corrected the gerber files on page 28
if you have built from the REV2A board files and are experiencing any issues
easiest solution is to simply remove C29 .
It probably wont happen today but if it does it definitely wont go smoothly.

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Post by toneburst » Thu Feb 09, 2017 7:50 am

@mxmxmx do you happen to have any spare PCBs for your Ogre version?

a|x

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Post by mxmxmx » Thu Feb 09, 2017 11:56 am

toneburst wrote:@mxmxmx do you happen to have any spare PCBs for your Ogre version?
no, i've only had a very few made back then. i still have the gerbers, somewhere, if you wanted them; but ideally i'd redo the control PCB slightly before making them available (= use a different/taller illuminated switch; the ones i've used are a bit pricey and < 10mm). i never did because i didn't see myself ever patching up something actually resembling multi-operator FM. anyways, timo and wsy have put a lot more effort into their 8HP version than i have, so ...

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Post by Slomen » Fri Feb 16, 2018 9:42 am

Is there a manual for the FM Ogre?

I bought one second hand and Ive been getting some crazy sounds from it (In a good way) but the PM knob doesn’t have much of an effect.. hoping there is something I’ve missed and nothing wrong :eek:

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Post by wsy » Fri Feb 16, 2018 6:45 pm

Slomen wrote:Is there a manual for the FM Ogre?

I bought one second hand and Ive been getting some crazy sounds from it (In a good way) but the PM knob doesn’t have much of an effect.. hoping there is something I’ve missed and nothing wrong :eek:
PM is the phase angle of the sound; unless you feed in something at audio rate (say, A-440 from another sine oscillator your ear will
only hear the slightest quaver / what sounds like aliasing but it's not, it's a phase jump.

Sines and other wavy audio waveforms work the best; stuff like triangles and pulse trains and sample-and-holds don't do a lot, and
slow waveforms like an LFO or O&C will do pretty much NOTHING.

Give it a nice clean sine wave around 200 to 400 Hz in the PM input, slowly dial up the PM knob, and listen to it. It should get REAL FUN
really fast. :-)

- Bill
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Post by toneburst » Mon Jul 29, 2019 4:36 pm

Hi sorry to resurrect this thread, and apologies if this probably rather stupid question has been answered above.

I build a couple of the Euro version of this module from ModularAddict https://modularaddict.com/timo-wsynth-fmogre-pcbpanel.

After rediscovering the modules after some time, I'm now not sure how it works. Specifically, I'm confused about how to use envelopes, LFOs etc. to dynamically alter the depth of modulation applied to the carrier from the FM/PM input signal.

Am I correct in thinking that I would do this using a VCA to modulate the amplitude of the modulating signal, before it went into the FM/PM input, with the FM/PM knobs scaling to the modulation amount?

Again, sorry if this is a stupid question.

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Post by TimoRozendal » Wed Jul 31, 2019 2:19 am

toneburst wrote: Am I correct in thinking that I would do this using a VCA to modulate the amplitude of the modulating signal, before it went into the FM/PM input, with the FM/PM knobs scaling to the modulation amount?
yes, you are correct.
Also that is not always intuitive how the knobs and inputs interact. It takes some vca's/offset/attenuating sometimes to get what you want.

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Post by wsy » Wed Jul 31, 2019 6:29 pm

toneburst wrote:Hi sorry to resurrect this thread, and apologies if this probably rather stupid question has been answered above.

I build a couple of the Euro version of this module from ModularAddict https://modularaddict.com/timo-wsynth-fmogre-pcbpanel.

After rediscovering the modules after some time, I'm now not sure how it works. Specifically, I'm confused about how to use envelopes, LFOs etc. to dynamically alter the depth of modulation applied to the carrier from the FM/PM input signal.

Am I correct in thinking that I would do this using a VCA to modulate the amplitude of the modulating signal, before it went into the FM/PM input, with the FM/PM knobs scaling to the modulation amount?

Again, sorry if this is a stupid question.
Not stupid at all!

Yes, you can use a VCA to set / modulate the gain on the modulating signal, especially if you want to
have an envelope or even an LFO modulation on the timbre.

I actually considered having gain-ins on the board, but there aren't enough ADC channels on the
DSP chip to have it be "direct in"; the VCA would have to be analog and in that case, make it
an external device so the user can use the VCA / ringmod / Vactrol that they already know and love
to control the modulation.

So, "yes, go for it!"

- Bill
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Post by toneburst » Sat Aug 10, 2019 3:15 pm

Thanks very much @wsy and @TimoRozendal.

I've discovered that one of the modules is very noisy/glitchy. I think the MCU pin connected to the LoFi switch may be floating, as the signal seems noisy (but not quite in the same way as the other module, in LoFi mode), and the LoFi switch has no effect.

Is it feasible that the module is randomly switching the LoFi effect on and off because the switch isn't connected and the PIC pin is picking up noise, or is it more likely I have two separate issues here?

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Post by wsy » Sun Aug 11, 2019 8:32 am

toneburst wrote:Thanks very much @wsy and @TimoRozendal.

I've discovered that one of the modules is very noisy/glitchy. I think the MCU pin connected to the LoFi switch may be floating, as the signal seems noisy (but not quite in the same way as the other module, in LoFi mode), and the LoFi switch has no effect.

Is it feasible that the module is randomly switching the LoFi effect on and off because the switch isn't connected and the PIC pin is picking up noise, or is it more likely I have two separate issues here?
Interesting problem!

I assume the pots all behave "normally" (all switches off?)

- Bill (my FM Ogre is horked right now- no function on the PM knob or switches)
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