Buchla 225e Bricked?

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Mannstrane
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Buchla 225e Bricked?

Post by Mannstrane » Mon Apr 05, 2021 8:42 pm

So I am thinking that my 225e is bricked from power issues in a new case with lockup’s. Is the usb firmware device the only way to restore corrupted patches written to a Buchla module?

I’m in Los Angeles and wasn’t sure where to get one of those since Noisebug is not an option anymore.

Thanks!

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Re: Buchla 225e Bricked?

Post by momo » Mon Apr 05, 2021 9:32 pm

Hey and sorry to hear of your woes. I think we will need a bit more info, but in the meantime, try unbuttoning all other modules temporarily, the power cycling with only the 225e installed. Let us know what happens - e.g. do you get the primo message, are any LEDs on, any message at all on the screen? THe section above and below function independently, so let us know if the entire module is haywire, or just one section.

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Re: Buchla 225e Bricked?

Post by Kent » Tue Apr 06, 2021 1:00 am

And what is the size of the system, who made the case & power, have any modules been moved in the system (even the tiniest bit)?

Both sections? MIDI and Preset Management?

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Re: Buchla 225e Bricked?

Post by Mannstrane » Tue Apr 06, 2021 1:25 am

I placed it in a Buchla 4 unit powered boat alone and it seems to not show any strange issues. All looks normal. Soon as it goes into the other case, not the same story.

The problem case is a new 24 unit case with Buchla brick and board.

I had a strange corrupted save from the 252e that seemed to have spread to other modules saving weird settings. I was sending clock to the 252e and saving while the 252e was playing with incoming clock. There are some issues from that workflow.

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Re: Buchla 225e Bricked?

Post by Kent » Tue Apr 06, 2021 2:52 am

Can you post a modulargrid photo of your system, please? Do you have a 285e or any 3rd party modules?

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Re: Buchla 225e Bricked?

Post by ArguZ » Tue Apr 06, 2021 3:46 am

Midi clock and the 252e....in a 24U...that will be interesting.
Let's hope the new 680R resistors will make it better, but what also could work is to thin out the the midi stream on the input side.
By using a dedicated midi clock device that does only send 200 per second and not blast it .
There is just not enough bandwidth in the I2C especially if it runs on 4V and/or needs to deal with sync data.

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Re: Buchla 225e Bricked?

Post by momo » Tue Apr 06, 2021 7:10 am

Love tech detail like that - thanks for posting that ArguZ. To the OP, I think with posts above like that from Kent and ArguZ you can resolve the workflow issue that is giving rise to the issue for (hopefully) less troublesome operating going forward. In terms of if you think you have a corrupted preset saved, you can either delete said offending preset, or fiddle with which modules are / are not in remote enable.

Just to explain a bit about what I mean by that, the preset system works by sending a recall instruction to each module, the info is not stored locally in the 225e. One some if not all 200e modules, in lieu of a 225e or other preset manager module, it used to be (still is?) possible to save a module preset by pushing and keeping depressed the 'Remote Enable' button for a second or two. This would save state once.

Ergo, if your 252e is causing a preset lockup or problem, you could for example switch to a good preset if possible, take the 252e out of remote enable (LED extinguished), switch to your bad preset, check everything seems okay, turn 252e remote enable back on (LED lit) and hit save. Afterwards to verify things seem okay, visually scan the system / modules then hit the 252e remote enable button for 1-2 seconds and keep an eye on your preset manager screen - if it shows the '252e' and the firmware number, that'd be a good sign.

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Re: Buchla 225e Bricked?

Post by Dreadwvlf » Tue Apr 06, 2021 3:05 pm

Mannstrane wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 8:42 pm
So I am thinking that my 225e is bricked from power issues in a new case with lockup’s. Is the usb firmware device the only way to restore corrupted patches written to a Buchla module?

I’m in Los Angeles and wasn’t sure where to get one of those since Noisebug is not an option anymore.

Thanks!


Absolute worst case if you need I have a firmware card and I’m in Encino so you could swing through borrow mine and bring it back when you’re done on the honor system :)

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Re: Buchla 225e Bricked?

Post by Mannstrane » Tue Apr 06, 2021 3:27 pm

Thanks Dreadwvl! I might need to take you up on your offer.

So I have tried many combos but things started really going south once I put the 208c in the case and then screwed in modules. I had stable system, then I went to finalize by screwing down panels in the boat. The more panels I screwed down, the more it became unstable.

So I put the 225e back in the 24 unit case and it would not get past the first boot up screen. Soon as I pulled out the 252e, the 225e unlocked. So right now only item that’s powered is 225e with a 292e and 281e. Top boat power cable is disconnected btw.

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Re: Buchla 225e Bricked?

Post by Mannstrane » Tue Apr 06, 2021 3:36 pm

Just tried 225e with 252e in both cases. In both cases they aren’t finishing boot for 225e when 252e is there.

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Re: Buchla 225e Bricked?

Post by Mannstrane » Tue Apr 06, 2021 3:59 pm

Another update: 225e unlocked in 12 unit powered case once I changed clock source on 252e to off from 252e as master clock.

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Re: Buchla 225e Bricked?

Post by tIB » Tue Apr 06, 2021 4:32 pm

Have you contacted buchla support? My hunch is it's a preset thing (in that the 252e has somehow corrupted the presets in the 225e) but I'm guessing. But yeah, they are apparently keen to help and were very responsive recently for me.

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Re: Buchla 225e Bricked?

Post by Mannstrane » Tue Apr 06, 2021 5:00 pm

Is it normal for the 252e cv light to stay on with nothing programmed?

I just noticed the blue light being on. And some how the blue light went away and preset manager on 225e is flashing. Seems there’s still something up with 252e.

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Re: Buchla 225e Bricked?

Post by Mannstrane » Tue Apr 06, 2021 5:09 pm

If 252e is saved with src int for clock the 225e never unlocks. I think I need to re-flash firmware.

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Re: Buchla 225e Bricked?

Post by Default1 » Tue Apr 06, 2021 6:43 pm

I recently had a very similar problem. 24U case with a 252e, 225e and 223e. Added in some 3rd party modules, and the system went haywire and corrupted the presets on a whole bunch of modules. The 291e was affected, and now has no uncorrupted presents. BUSA is sending me a card to overwrite all the old presets. Am still able to use the system, without the 291e, but 3rd party modules have been removed for the time being.
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Re: Buchla 225e Bricked?

Post by Oxix52 » Tue Apr 06, 2021 6:57 pm

I have a Buchla 201e-24 from around 2014 and was having lockups. My system includes all the regulars plus the 225e, 250e, 251e, 252e, 285e, and a Studio H DPO. Last year, Doug from Studio H was helping me figure it out and we eventually found that putting the 225e in the boat with the power fixed all of the lockups. I still get the occasional lockup, but its very rare, like maybe 2 lockups in the last year or so.
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Re: Buchla 225e Bricked?

Post by Dreadwvlf » Tue Apr 06, 2021 7:31 pm

Damn, yeah based on my very limited knowledge it sounds like preset manager stuff. At least those are the issues I run into when things aren’t happy where they are. I wonder if moving things around would help. It’s crazy but I run into issues when I move modules to different spots on the boards a bunch. It’s like a game of Tetris figuring out where each module is happy but I usually find it with enough work.

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Re: Buchla 225e Bricked?

Post by Mannstrane » Tue Apr 06, 2021 11:50 pm

Thanks everyone. I might be in the same “boat” as Default1.

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Re: Buchla 225e Bricked?

Post by ArguZ » Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:32 am

The lockup happens when the 225e/206e sends a command to write to the modules and no confirmation arrives...or asks for ID at start..same thing.
What you are doing by shuffling modules is to change the length of the wires used to communicate over the bus in both directions.
The protocol is a simple 5V steady signal that gets pulled down to 0V and thus communicates..very much like midi.
The thing is the older e series can still run out of spec...the newer ones like the 252e and/or Dougs can not.
The more e modules live on the bus the longer the lines get, the higher the resistance becomes and at some point it drops under the detection level.
Doug's repeaters can fix some of the drop, but only when used at the right place .
What the TI TCA980x chips try to do is to level the SCL and SDA and im opinion those should have been integrated in the power board design from the start.
But as the problem only arises in +18U systems with a 252e or newer "to spec' third party systems, it was probably to late for Don to fix and then development stalled.
As far as i remember Eric offered everyone who bought a case from Buchla an upgrade to the latest edition of power boards, no ?
The last ones, but especially some of the earlier ones , ( blue ? did he say blue ? ) just can't keep up with the 5V needed on the I2C bus.
The latest new ones , first seen in the new 24U case, have smaller pullup (or down) resistors that allow for more modules.
One can just hope the new Meanwell DC/DCs do not introduce more noise than necessary .

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Re: Buchla 225e Bricked?

Post by ddp » Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:31 am

Ah, thanks for that explanation!
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