Noisebug "just say no" press release

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mermott
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Re: Noisebug "just say no" press release

Post by mermott » Sat Apr 03, 2021 2:36 pm

(Bit reduced due to covid restrictions and lack of relevance to the 4U format)
Last edited by mermott on Tue Apr 06, 2021 2:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Noisebug "just say no" press release

Post by MindMachine » Sun Apr 04, 2021 2:40 am

Tonefloat01 wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 7:13 pm
mutierend wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 12:35 pm
Tonefloat01 wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:18 pm
My takeaways were the following:

1. What kind of super car does Robert or Kyle own?
I have a Ferrari California T. Kyle drives a nice compact SUV in which the sKylelab fits perfectly.
Very nice, how’s the upkeep on those things?
The Ferrari that is... :hihi:
And I was just considering a used Ghibli.

Time to settle I suppose.
FS: Pedals, Echotron, Mangler, Tascam 238 and DR-03
viewtopic.php?f=74&t=244651

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Re: Noisebug "just say no" press release

Post by Tonefloat01 » Sun Apr 04, 2021 6:55 pm

MindMachine wrote:
Sun Apr 04, 2021 2:40 am
Tonefloat01 wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 7:13 pm
mutierend wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 12:35 pm
Tonefloat01 wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:18 pm
My takeaways were the following:

1. What kind of super car does Robert or Kyle own?
I have a Ferrari California T. Kyle drives a nice compact SUV in which the sKylelab fits perfectly.
Very nice, how’s the upkeep on those things?
The Ferrari that is... :hihi:
And I was just considering a used Ghibli.

Time to settle I suppose.

I went for a 2020 Z4 myself so that gives me around 180K to spend on modular synths :tu:
The space you occupy determines the time you live in.

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Re: Noisebug "just say no" press release

Post by mermott » Tue Apr 06, 2021 3:55 am

Thanks for the luxury transport distraction. I personally use public transport (we are lucky to have an ok network).

It’s incredibly useful to have so many experienced folks with tight links to the music industry here. The technical knowledge and benefits are immense. But i see it can totally numb down a discussion for fear of getting ostracized by peers. This is not news at all but worth being said i think when i witness the response to this official communication.

I don’t think this qualifies as an entitled customer rant. I don’t have any opinion on talented Buchla staff transitioning, although i am evidently happy they now get benefits, as was mentioned twice. I understand why Buchla would prefer launching a proprietary forum and look away from this one. When you consider how many Easel or 200e users have come here FIRST to get crippling technical problems solved it’s amazing though.
Now that is all i had to say.

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Re: Noisebug "just say no" press release

Post by momo » Tue Apr 06, 2021 8:10 am

Other commitments have kept me from the podcast series but over Easter downtime, I did tune in to the episode in question. Firstly thanks to the creators - appreciate the effort and getting info to us. I was looking forward to the interview with Eric Fox, and unexpectedly was left: :sad:

The impression I have been left with is that things are incredibly busy with them, and as a result, enquiries and tech issues can be a source of frustration, which I would imagine is something that can affect any small/medium enterprise, especially where a recent change of ownership or leadership has taken place, esp. with staff/(manufacturing)partner turnover. The point about Buchla being a brand, not a format is just weird - a new customer for example would contemplate things like v/octave, uni or bipolar, line level or Euro levels, banan / tini connectors, sockets, cables, imperial hardware rather than metric (which matters if you want to grab a few extra screws for your boat and erroneously buy 3mm rather than 4-40). All of this to me points to a format, and something (power standards perhaps to one side) that affect all Buchla stuff past and present.

It's clear there is a desire to make money and that is fine. As Kent and others have said, that's a clear departure from Don's days that I suppose I and others can be nostalgic about. A part of the appeal for me was always the vision; it seemed Don made modules he wanted, and it was incidental that there might be demand from others, and they might sell a few. That's very different to setting out to make a product that might shift bucketloads, and likely why they are experiencing problems with yield with the 208c - you can't have your cake and eat it too if you are trying to recreate a product from the past without affecting its soul, but want to ramp up volume manufacture.

I could glean frustration at the clone situation, but we have to remember as a point of fact about historical stuff, such as the Topobrillo 281 - when was that, like 2010? If I recall correctly, that person contacted Don about the design of the 200 series 281. According to them, Don seemed surprised that anyone would care about those old designs, and was quite laissez faire when that person asked if they could produce PCBs for the DIY (not Buchla format) community (I believe Don asked they not copy the panel design / artwork as that was considered copyrighted). Back then therefore B&A demonstrated many times they had zero interest to revisit the past. And then what happened happened, in a way that was deemed ok by the modular ethics Gods, when the same on e.g. EMS products was deemed sacriledge on account of those products being in modern production. Thus if BUSA go into 200 series production, I suppose ethically it may pose a bit of a quandary.

Be that as it may, Eric cannot change that past, and is free to shape the future, but I feel it is wrong to feel frustration, and to air that in podcasts like this one, because it just comes off as steam, and sometimes insulting to the many existing customers, and incredibly talented customers (Verbos, Roman, Eardrill, Keen, StudioH) that happen to eat into their spare time to make modules on a 'labour of love' basis to enhance the format. This is something that seemed lost on Eric, that modules that complement the format will positively impact his business, not canibalise it. Innovation is important and here is an example that I think may be based on some factual grounding: Chris makes the 077 P/R, B&A subsequently redesign the firmware of the 225e to make clock division possible, somewhat similar to some parts of the P/R. Years later the 252e comes out which takes the idea of interesting pulses further. I have all three in my set up, they coexist peacefully. Design wise, maybe in the order presented, the P/R set that train on its journey...

Regarding Eric's views on forums, I agree with those that have said it is a mistake to not see Muffs as a resource. With our collective support to others, surely he recognises the value we add in positively affecting his business. In Don's days, Yasi Perera was on the Yahoo mailing list, then when this forum was created, Don was not on here (to my knowledge), but Jon Shatz was, and then Drillionaire and Alex in the BEMI days. I really feel someone, sure maybe not the CEO, should have a tentacle in user forums, to tap into the (bug fixes) resource, and generally have a presence. Their own forum might be a bit like Google+. Sometimes technically better is not the same as (an) established (community). I feel the same about their idea of an enhanced Modular Gird - surely an email exchange suffices on details? But I think this points to a closed ecosystem approach they are maybe trying to adopt. I foresee what they want and what they can have will not meet. Or maybe it will for their 'studio' clientele. But not for the core 200e community.

Regarding firmware, and posts about there is no money in it, my view is if that module is in production, then yes there is, because issues (like the 272e one covered in the podcast and thanks to TiB we can see they have now addressed) would affect sales of that module and likely systems if users scour these forums and read words like 'lockups' and 'power cycling'. I can see that as an SME, resources are currently pooled in the 208c and in ironing out operational issues likely inherited and still not super refined, and I wish them genuine luck in all that, and empathise. But I though Eric's answer on whether this extended to other firmware issues was not as clear. Seeing as he appeared to welcome the direct, challenging questions, I would hope in the future he can clarify with e.g. a roadmap, and shed light on at what point might the 200e format want to be kept alive, but modules like the 256e might have to be revised due to those processors etc. not being made anymore or not readily supportable in case of user issues. And if bug fixes is something possible technically, and if resources will be put into that. Maybe I should just email and ask him, as he suggested in the podcast. But he seemed stressed and a bit tired of such enquiries due to being so involved in the big manufacturing matters, so maybe I'll just leave it alone. Last comment, althought Eric used the word 'flagship' to describe 200e, given the context of all else he said, I think a better word to describe the BUSA view of 200e, currently, would be niche.

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Re: Noisebug "just say no" press release

Post by mermott » Tue Apr 06, 2021 10:29 am

Thank you for chiming in. I can only agree with what you wrote here.

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Re: Noisebug "just say no" press release

Post by Pagoda-100 » Tue Apr 06, 2021 11:43 am

momo wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 8:10 am
Maybe I should just email and ask him, as he suggested in the podcast. But he seemed stressed and a bit tired of such enquiries due to being so involved in the big manufacturing matters, so maybe I'll just leave it alone.
I would do exactly that. Or leave it alone and wonder.
Can't hurt to ask.

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Re: Noisebug "just say no" press release

Post by KSS » Tue Apr 06, 2021 6:16 pm

Didn't Eric either post into an existing thread or create a new one? Where he said he wasn't going to come to MW in general but that he would be checking that thread regularly to keep up in anything the MW community brought up?

At the time there was much speculation -like now- and I remember thinking it was a smart move on his part.

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Re: Noisebug "just say no" press release

Post by mutierend » Wed Apr 07, 2021 12:16 am

Great post, momo. I agree with much of what you said.
Robert
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Re: Noisebug "just say no" press release

Post by mutierend » Wed Apr 07, 2021 12:41 am

mermott wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 3:55 am
Thanks for the luxury transport distraction. I personally use public transport (we are lucky to have an ok network).
I live in a semi-rural area in a small town about 45 minutes from Seattle. We don't even have Uber.
Robert
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Re: Noisebug "just say no" press release

Post by mermott » Wed Apr 07, 2021 5:24 am

mutierend wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 12:41 am
I live in a semi-rural area in a small town about 45 minutes from Seattle. We don't even have Uber.
Of course some people have to have cars. The city took steps to drive car traffic away here. It would be very expensive and inconvenient to have one. Bike use has totally exploded with the first lockdown (we just started the third). From what i see upscale folding bike brand Brompton seems to have benefited the most from this.

Glad you’re back. It seems i’ve been guilty of attacking (though not killing!) the messenger, sorry for that. That exercise has stirred bad feelings as you could see but I understand your position as host.

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Re: Noisebug "just say no" press release

Post by mermott » Wed Apr 07, 2021 5:26 am

I can’t believe the work Kent, Doug and others here are doing (see the « 225e bricked » thread that popped up yesterday). And the design and production of what i would call THE ENABLER, « Lyonel’s bridge ». This is not about customizing products, it’s about having them work ! Is this not outsourced unpaid tech support work written off from Buchla USA expenses ?

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Re: Noisebug "just say no" press release

Post by PDT » Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:34 am

Eric is concerned about money. Understandable, it's a business. But as Momo pointed out: You cannot say Buchla is brand, not a format.
The rules about the Buchla format applied before either BEMI/BUSA were a thing.

In order to plan what is good for the company, you should understand the market. I would consider this mandatory. For a niche product that usually means you should understand the community and do what is good for the community.

Other than that BEMI and BUSA, both, have a history of making announcments that intentionally did not reflect reality at the time they were made. So, I'd rather judge BUSA by what they actually will do. Not what they say.

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Re: Noisebug "just say no" press release

Post by mritenburg » Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:50 am

PDT wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:34 am
But as Momo pointed out: You cannot say Buchla is brand, not a format.
Sure you can, and BUSA, as owner of the Buchla Trademark, is obligated to make that distinction to maintain control of the Buchla Trademark.

It’s analogous to the Q-Tip, Dumpster, and Thermos Trademark genericization questions.
Disappointment with any module is usually a failure of imagination.

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Re: Noisebug "just say no" press release

Post by mutierend » Wed Apr 07, 2021 12:42 pm

mermott wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 5:24 am

Glad you’re back. It seems i’ve been guilty of attacking (though not killing!) the messenger, sorry for that. That exercise has stirred bad feelings as you could see but I understand your position as host.
FWIW, I don't feel attacked. I share your passion and frustration. I tried to ask leading questions in a polite way because we want our guests to feel welcome and supported, which goes both ways. The podcast is hosted by enthusiasts, not hard-hitting journalists. :) I appreciated that Eric was more forthcoming this time, but I didn't really expect him to address everything. I brought up the MW bug thread to make sure he either a) said BUSA would address the thread or b) provide an alternative, which he (kind of) did.

I'll be honest and say that I don't believe the 200e is a flagship for Buchla. I want to believe it, but I won't until they show me otherwise: A new 200e module, official support for the third-parties (Keen, Studio.H) that fill a gap, onboarding new third-parties to further expand the ecosystem, updated firmware for every module, new modern versions of existing modules even though I have to buy them again, etc. Hell, just one of those would be a blessing. The bright side is that, if Buchla can sell a zillion 208Cs, they can invest in 200e. But will they want to?

I asked about "Buchla" as a brand vs a format because I think it's an interesting discussion. Serge Tcherepnin created the Serge Modular and the format is called Serge. Dieter Doepfer created the A-100 and established the Eurorack standard. If he hadn't called it eurorack, would Maths be a Doepfer module? What if Don had established a 4U standard for Buchla, either through a specification (like Dieter) or being ok with 3rd-party builders (like Serge)? I love ontologies--my day job is in knowledge systems--so I enjoy this topic, even if it is somewhat scientific (or esoteric). I like to say "Buchla ecosystem" because it is inclusive and doesn't sound pedantic.

I likely won't stop saying "Buchla modules," just like I likely won't start saying the full name of a module every time I mention it.
Robert
Co-host, Buchla podcast at http://sourceofuncertainty.audio

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Re: Noisebug "just say no" press release

Post by tIB » Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:04 pm

I want to believe about the flagship part too, but am on a similar page to many in this thread.

Fwiw I passed on an overview of the bug thread - I don't expect to hear anything back.

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Re: Noisebug "just say no" press release

Post by tIB » Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:12 pm

I'll add that I also seemed to feel more positive following the interview - just to hear Eric say it's regarded as flagship was a step forward. Of course, saying and doing are two different things, but to hear it's at least one further up the to do list (above the 100 series) seems like some kind of progress.

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Re: Noisebug "just say no" press release

Post by triplizard » Wed Apr 07, 2021 2:03 pm

mritenburg wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:50 am
PDT wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:34 am
But as Momo pointed out: You cannot say Buchla is brand, not a format.
Sure you can, and BUSA, as owner of the Buchla Trademark, is obligated to make that distinction to maintain control of the Buchla Trademark.

It’s analogous to the Q-Tip, Dumpster, and Thermos Trademark genericization questions.
Absolutely - "Band Aid brand bandages," etc. And beyond that they have, in the past - and apparently are considering doing so again - released Buchla products that are not "Buchla format."

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Re: Noisebug "just say no" press release

Post by mdoudoroff » Wed Apr 07, 2021 2:06 pm

I don’t doubt that the 200e series poses some conundrums from a business standpoint, but its halo effect is impossible to disregard. The 200e sits at the apex of aspirational synthesizers. If I was an investor in BUSA, it would be pretty hard to stomach losing it. Or rather, I would be reluctant to invest money in BUSA in the first place if that product line wasn’t part of the plan, or was a dead-end. On the downside, halo products tend to follow longer, slower development timelines for pragmatic reasons.

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Re: Noisebug "just say no" press release

Post by tIB » Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:14 pm

There's some irony with the apparent frustration (from Eric) around bugs and issues - if he was aware of the ignored thread here outlining the bugs when he bought the company, he may have had a clearer idea of what he was getting into.

Also, I guess if he realised how much support was done right here on the forum he might feel a bit more positive about it?

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Re: Noisebug "just say no" press release

Post by mermott » Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:38 pm

KSS wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 6:16 pm
Didn't Eric either post into an existing thread or create a new one? Where he said he wasn't going to come to MW in general but that he would be checking that thread regularly to keep up in anything the MW community brought up?

At the time there was much speculation -like now- and I remember thinking it was a smart move on his part.

Yes, he has been here as BLACK MARKET
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=194544&start=50


A bit further :
BLACK MARKET wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:00 pm
loydb wrote:Awesome. Where you can immediately differentiate:

1) Build quality
2) QA and testing
3) Community involvement (great to see you on Muff's.
Yes Yes Yes to everything you just said! It’s going to take a couple of months to get this squared away....but this is all part of the first phase and then we can start on “phase II” :tu:

...here about the “Chrutil 252e”
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=221533&p=3156535#p3156535

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Re: Noisebug "just say no" press release

Post by mermott » Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:41 pm

mutierend wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 12:42 pm
I share your passion and frustration.
Thanks for sharing your views too !

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Re: Noisebug "just say no" press release

Post by Siren » Wed Apr 07, 2021 5:26 pm

I understand that Eric must think of business first, and keep the company going, and his employees happy, but there is a dissonance in his view of what can be called ”Buchla” when my replica 208p with a 218r in a Halliburton is a lot closer to an original Easel than their 208c, or the Bemi version before that even. He’s being a bit dismissive of the clone market, but judging from their version of the Easel, I wonder what their versions of the old 200 modules will be like? I sincerely hope they will be fantastic, but at the same time I can’t help thinking that ship has sailed and they should be focusing on the 200e where their real modern strength lies. Oh well, what do I know about business.

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Re: Noisebug "just say no" press release

Post by mermott » Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:27 am

Siren wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 5:26 pm
I sincerely hope they will be fantastic, but at the same time I can’t help thinking that ship has sailed and they should be focusing on the 200e where their real modern strength lies.
My thoughts exactly. Maybe we underestimate the market for these ?
It's always nice to read Jane Birkin's word in a Buchla thread.

I have dealt with Noisebug only once. Oceans were crossed. Not a word was exchanged. But they were extremely efficient, so i wish them good luck. Will not hesitate to deal with them another time. Maybe the title of the thread should be changed ? Apologies to the OP. "The Buchla ecosystem" or "Is Buchla a format ?" seems to be a worthy subject for many reasons at this point though some opposing views were already expressed. I confess i will side with Momo here.

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Re: Noisebug "just say no" press release

Post by Pagoda-100 » Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:34 am

Agreed,
Prolly time for a new thread.
I have dealt with Noisebug a good bit and have always been super happy about the service. Blake has always been most helpful every time I have reached out. For sure one of my favorite shops to use. Knowing I can call and ask questions about an order is nice. As a side note, I have placed 3 orders with Buchla over the past few weeks and was rewarded with the same good service and Q&A interaction...

So in my little corner of the world, I have to say they are both good outfits and am happy to work with both of them!

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