Noisebug "just say no" press release

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Re: Noisebug "just say no" press release

Post by winn3r » Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:59 am

Yup, very happy Noisebug customer here too. Once time I purchased a bunch of obscure cables and they called to make sure I knew what I was doing :hihi:

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Re: Noisebug "just say no" press release

Post by mritenburg » Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:05 am

Siren wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 5:26 pm
there is a dissonance in his view of what can be called ”Buchla” when my replica 208p with a 218r in a Halliburton is a lot closer to an original Easel than their 208c, or the Bemi version before that even
I’m not trying to pick on you, but what you have written here is faulty. Let’s say you want to buy a brand new pair of Nike Air Jordan’s sneakers and you want the original model sold back in 1985, only Nike doesn’t make that model anymore. Instead, Nike offers newer models under the Nike Air Jordan brand. So you go to a street market in the nearest big city and find a street vendor selling nearly exact replicas of the original 1985 version of Nike Air Jordan’s, only they were not manufactured by Nike. So you purchase a pair. Have your purchased authentic Nike Air Jordan’s? They are nearly exact to the original, but that doesn’t matter, the maker doesn’t have the right to use the Nike Air Jordan brand or produce goods with the same look and feel, so what you have purchased are counterfeits.

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Re: Noisebug "just say no" press release

Post by MoyaMoya » Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:15 am

Funny thing there is in the 90s when Nike was struggling to keep pace with production and demand was high knock offs were rampit..and in one case the knock offs where soo damn good, Nike found the production facility that was making said clones and gave them a contract to make legit Nikes. It's in Phillip McKnight's auto biography.

Also any sneaker head will tell you Nike's quality has steadily gone down over the past 2 decades. I have a pair of Pegasus Trail 36 and while they where arguably the most comfortable pair of shoes I've ever owned..it only took a year for the soles to become completely unglued :despair:

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Re: Noisebug "just say no" press release

Post by mritenburg » Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:20 am

MoyaMoya wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:15 am
Funny thing there is in the 90s when Nike was struggling to keep pace with production and demand was high knock offs were rampit..and in one case the knock offs where soo damn good, Nike found the production facility that was making said clones and gave them a contract to make legit Nikes. It's in Phillip McKnight's auto biography.

Also any sneaker head will tell you Nike's quality has steadily gone down over the past 2 decades. I have a pair of Pegasus Trail 36 and while they where arguably the most comfortable pair of shoes I've ever owned..it only took a year for the soles to become completely unglued :despair:
I’m not sure what you are arguing here, are you arguing that counterfeit’s are justified in these circumstances?

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Re: Noisebug "just say no" press release

Post by Siren » Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:26 am

mritenburg wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:05 am
Siren wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 5:26 pm
there is a dissonance in his view of what can be called ”Buchla” when my replica 208p with a 218r in a Halliburton is a lot closer to an original Easel than their 208c, or the Bemi version before that even
I’m not trying to pick on you, but what you have written here is faulty. Let’s say you want to buy a brand new pair of Nike Air Jordan’s sneakers and you want the original model sold back in 1985, only Nike doesn’t make that model anymore. Instead, Nike offers newer models under the Nike Air Jordan brand. So you go to a street market in the nearest big city and find a street vendor selling nearly exact replicas of the original 1985 version of Nike Air Jordan’s, only they were not manufactured by Nike. So you purchase a pair. Have your purchased authentic Nike Air Jordan’s? They are nearly exact to the original, but that doesn’t matter, the maker doesn’t have the right to use the Nike Air Jordan brand or produce goods with the same look and feel, so what you have purchased are counterfeits.
Yes, you are absolutely correct of course, from a business/brand point of view. I was talking more philosophically - when some of the cloners (not all)are more meticulous about accuracy of replicating the old units the way Don designed them, while the current version of the company very understandably are more focused on putting out great numbers, that makes me want to look elsewhere. But I wish Buchla as a company all the luck in the world and wish they will put out electronically faithful versions of the 200 and 100.

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Re: Noisebug "just say no" press release

Post by Sinamsis » Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:07 am

Siren wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:26 am
mritenburg wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:05 am
Siren wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 5:26 pm
there is a dissonance in his view of what can be called ”Buchla” when my replica 208p with a 218r in a Halliburton is a lot closer to an original Easel than their 208c, or the Bemi version before that even
I’m not trying to pick on you, but what you have written here is faulty. Let’s say you want to buy a brand new pair of Nike Air Jordan’s sneakers and you want the original model sold back in 1985, only Nike doesn’t make that model anymore. Instead, Nike offers newer models under the Nike Air Jordan brand. So you go to a street market in the nearest big city and find a street vendor selling nearly exact replicas of the original 1985 version of Nike Air Jordan’s, only they were not manufactured by Nike. So you purchase a pair. Have your purchased authentic Nike Air Jordan’s? They are nearly exact to the original, but that doesn’t matter, the maker doesn’t have the right to use the Nike Air Jordan brand or produce goods with the same look and feel, so what you have purchased are counterfeits.
Yes, you are absolutely correct of course, from a business/brand point of view. I was talking more philosophically - when some of the cloners (not all)are more meticulous about accuracy of replicating the old units the way Don designed them, while the current version of the company very understandably are more focused on putting out great numbers, that makes me want to look elsewhere. But I wish Buchla as a company all the luck in the world and wish they will put out electronically faithful versions of the 200 and 100.
I think some might argue that revisiting old products was very not what Don Buchla wanted or was interested, so advancing the product line even if moving away from the originals seems to be in line with that. Ha that said, so far we’ve seen a modified 208 that is more accessible (financially) than previous offerings, and hopes that we might see a similar 218.

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Re: Noisebug "just say no" press release

Post by Siren » Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:55 am

Sinamsis wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:07 am
Siren wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:26 am
Yes, you are absolutely correct of course, from a business/brand point of view. I was talking more philosophically - when some of the cloners (not all)are more meticulous about accuracy of replicating the old units the way Don designed them, while the current version of the company very understandably are more focused on putting out great numbers, that makes me want to look elsewhere. But I wish Buchla as a company all the luck in the world and wish they will put out electronically faithful versions of the 200 and 100.
I think some might argue that revisiting old products was very not what Don Buchla wanted or was interested, so advancing the product line even if moving away from the originals seems to be in line with that. Ha that said, so far we’ve seen a modified 208 that is more accessible (financially) than previous offerings, and hopes that we might see a similar 218.
Sure, my very first point in this thread was that they should focus on the 200e and expand beyond that. I really think that is where their real relevance lies these days.
However, they say they're working on the 200 and I hope they're doing it right, that's all. If they are I will be first in line to buy, but Don is no longer with us and brand loyalty has to be earned.

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Re: Noisebug "just say no" press release

Post by Siren » Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:00 am

mermott wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:27 am
It's always nice to read Jane Birkin's word in a Buchla thread.
:wink:

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Re: Noisebug "just say no" press release

Post by mermott » Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:22 am

mritenburg wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:20 am
I’m not sure what you are arguing here, are you arguing that counterfeit’s are justified in these circumstances?
MoyaMoya is pointing to the fact that Buchla made the same move Nike did when they chose clone builders very attentive to details and quality to take care of the two 100 series official clones.

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Re: Noisebug "just say no" press release

Post by mermott » Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:23 am

Siren wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:55 am
If they are I will be first in line to buy, but Don is no longer with us and brand loyalty has to be earned.
I guess this must have been what all the posts you had to suffer from me were about.

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Re: Noisebug "just say no" press release

Post by triplizard » Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:28 am

Pagoda-100 wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:34 am
I have dealt with Noisebug a good bit and have always been super happy about the service. Blake has always been most helpful every time I have reached out. For sure one of my favorite shops to use. Knowing I can call and ask questions about an order is nice. As a side note, I have placed 3 orders with Buchla over the past few weeks and was rewarded with the same good service and Q&A interaction...
My experience as well. I think I've placed 3 or 4 orders with Noisebug over the years and everything was fine - good communication, quick delivery, no issues.

I've placed 3 orders with Buchla this year. They've been great. With my first order I tried to buy some things that they didn't have on hand and wouldn't be getting for a while due to the production change discussed earlier. They were open about what they had and didn't have and worked with me to adjust my order. After that I pinged them to see what was available before ordering and it's all been great. (In a perfect world this would all be communicated on their website prior to taking your order, but it's really no effort at all to just shoot them an email.)

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Re: Noisebug "just say no" press release

Post by mutierend » Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:31 am

I like that this thread has veered towards sneakers. I have a collection of about 48 pairs. :D
Robert
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Re: Noisebug "just say no" press release

Post by mritenburg » Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:33 am

mermott wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:22 am
mritenburg wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:20 am
I’m not sure what you are arguing here, are you arguing that counterfeit’s are justified in these circumstances?
MoyaMoya is pointing to the fact that Buchla made the same move Nike did when they chose clone builders very attentive to details and quality to take care of the two 100 series official clones.
Sure, but pointing to that fact to make what point? That only reinforces the fact that BUSA, and only BUSA decides which products can bear the Buchla brand.

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Re: Noisebug "just say no" press release

Post by mermott » Thu Apr 08, 2021 11:14 am

I won't pretend to be in MoyaMoya's shoes. or Don's.

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Re: Noisebug "just say no" press release

Post by SynthBaron » Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:05 pm

Don needed money to live just like everyone else. But he had the advantage of having the skills of doing the electrical engineering and programming himself, which is more financially feasible than what two successor corporations have tried to do now.

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Re: Noisebug "just say no" press release

Post by tIB » Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:12 pm

I always assumed Don's Buchla work was funded by other ventures - didn't he work for NASA at points?

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Re: Noisebug "just say no" press release

Post by MoyaMoya » Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:15 pm

My main point was two fold. Although I don't agree with counterfeits of any nature, what happened here was Nike had a choice to make. They could have taken the counterfeiters to court and easily won their case, being in the right. But at the same time they were struggling to keep up with demand and having quality control issues. Phillip Mcknight flew out to the factory in Asia where the knock off's we're being made. When he saw the worker's passion for building a quality (although not genuine) shoe he was impressed. They had a shared passion for quality stitching. To bring more Nike's to the customers that wanted them and to provide jobs for an impoverished community he decided to join forces and make the factory an official Nike factory.

If a producer of any good is not up to meeting the demands of the consumers they will turn else where it's just the nature of the beast, but I don't think we can brush off these other manufactures and producers as sub par in quality. I am not a "Buchla" person so this is just my outside looking in opinion. I think it is in interesting and important conversation to have as to what is and what is not a Buchla.

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Re: Noisebug "just say no" press release

Post by mritenburg » Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:28 pm

MoyaMoya wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:15 pm
I think it is in interesting and important conversation to have as to what is and what is not a Buchla.
I agree with almost everything you are saying except this part. It’s really not up for debate. BUSA owns the Buchla trademark, therefore, they alone decide which products can bear the Buchla brand. This includes products they directly manufacture, and products they have chosen to allow use of the Buchla name (Softube, Arturia, etc.). Any other product is simply not a Buchla product.

I think what needs to be separated here is the question of the quality of the product from the source/manufacturers of the product. Just because someone builds a knock-off that’s higher quality than the official version, that fact alone simply does not make it a Buchla product. It may make it more desirable, but it’s not a Buchla product. It will always be a knock-off.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not against the clone market, but this question of what is and what is not a Buchla product is very simply solved by understanding how Trademark works.

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Re: Noisebug "just say no" press release

Post by triplizard » Thu Apr 08, 2021 1:05 pm

mritenburg wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:28 pm
MoyaMoya wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:15 pm
I think it is in interesting and important conversation to have as to what is and what is not a Buchla.
I agree with almost everything you are saying except this part. It’s really not up for debate. BUSA owns the Buchla trademark, therefore, they alone decide which products can bear the Buchla brand. This includes products they directly manufacture, and products they have chosen to allow use of the Buchla name (Softube, Arturia, etc.). Any other product is simply not a Buchla product.

I think what needs to be separated here is the question of the quality of the product from the source/manufacturers of the product. Just because someone builds a knock-off that’s higher quality than the official version, that fact alone simply does not make it a Buchla product. It may make it more desirable, but it’s not a Buchla product. It will always be a knock-off.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not against the clone market, but this question of what is and what is not a Buchla product is very simply solved by understanding how Trademark works.
Are there 3P/Cloners using the Buchla trademark without permission? If so, that's obviously not cool.

I think the grey area comes from something like the Studio H Control and Signal Router, which is pretty close to a clone of something Buchla is currently producing. Granted it seems to offer a number of improvements over the 210e but I think if I had designed the 210e, I'd be a bit miffed if somebody made some tweaks to my idea and then sold it in the same format. Not calling them out or anything as it seems like a very cool module. But on the spectrum of "cloner using the Buchla trademarks to sell an identical clone" being obviously wrong on the one end, and "3rd Party making a new module in the format that compliments what Buchla is offering" one the other end and being totally awesome, that sits somewhere in between.

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Re: Noisebug "just say no" press release

Post by mritenburg » Thu Apr 08, 2021 1:19 pm

triplizard wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 1:05 pm
Are there 3P/Cloners using the Buchla trademark without permission? If so, that's obviously not cool.
At minimum, everyone offering a clone and calling it a Buchla module falls in that category.

Additionally, potentially every person duplicating panels, offering kits, and building modules for sale which use a panel layout designed by Don Buchla fall into that category. I say “potentially” because the blue silkscreen layout on brushed aluminum panels with Davies or Rogan knobs is arguably so distinctly Indicative of Buchla manufacture, that this qualifies as trade dress under Trademark. Again, I say potentially because the burden is on BUSA to establish this as trade dress and then defend it.

To your point, these questions become much more blurry where the module design and panel layout are not copies of original Buchla design. These modules should never be called Buchla.

Honestly though, BUSA should just take control of this narrative and name the format, set standards for the format, and make clear that modules that adhere to the format are still not of Buchla manufacture.

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Re: Noisebug "just say no" press release

Post by triplizard » Thu Apr 08, 2021 1:33 pm

mritenburg wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 1:19 pm
Honestly though, BUSA should just take control of this narrative and name the format, set standards for the format, and make clear that modules that adhere to the format are still not of Buchla manufacture.
You're probably right. On the one hand they're probably thinking "ain't nobody got time for that!" But I would guess that Doepfer benefitted greatly over the long term from doing just that.

The trade dress issue is an interesting point. IANAL but I would guess that having let it go on so long that train has left the station.

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Re: Noisebug "just say no" press release

Post by KSS » Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:26 am

@moyamoya
It's Phil Knight. No Mc Maybe you're mixing Phil of Nike with Brian Mcknight?
----------
Buchla is *both* a format *and* a brand. BU format vs Buchla brand solves the question of everything else vs official Buchla <--Which is wholly determined by BUSA, as mritenburg points out. And as also pointed out, not everything with a BUSA Buchla brand is BU format.

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Re: Noisebug "just say no" press release

Post by mritenburg » Fri Apr 09, 2021 8:23 am

KSS wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:26 am
@moyamoya
It's Phil Knight. No Mc Maybe you're mixing Phil of Nike with Brian Mcknight?
----------
Buchla is *both* a format *and* a brand. BU format vs Buchla brand solves the question of everything else vs official Buchla <--Which is wholly determined by BUSA, as mritenburg points out. And as also pointed out, not everything with a BUSA Buchla brand is BU format.
I always thought that the format was 4U. Personally, I’d like to see the format referred to as 4U-CS meaning “4U Curtis Street” to distinguish it from 4U-CA meaning “4U Cal Arts” which could cover all of the Serge and Serge compatible panels.

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Re: Noisebug "just say no" press release

Post by Tonefloat01 » Fri Apr 09, 2021 8:36 am

Why not bring all of the 3rd party manufacturers under the BUSA umbrella?
It’s Buchla & Associates right? So why not make the interested 3rd party module makers new ‘associates’ where they can use official Buchla faceplates and have their modules sold on the main BUSA store site?
This way 3rd party module makers can leave the marketing and sales aspect to BUSA and BUSA can lean on some very inventive and forward thinking builders that bring new people into this format to use them?
I know, I know this sounds very United Nations but I think it would solve a lot of problems with what you are all discussing here.
I only have two pairs of sneakers so what do I know?
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Re: Noisebug "just say no" press release

Post by MoyaMoya » Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:02 am

@KSS you are correct my apologies :doh:

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