? using NCom/Logic to sync Serge to External Drum Machine

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gnome666
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? using NCom/Logic to sync Serge to External Drum Machine

Post by gnome666 » Thu Feb 13, 2020 9:45 am

Haven't had a chance to try anything out, but wanted to float it out there to the hive mind to get thoughts. I have an old Korg drum machine that sounds amazing and I'd like to use it with my Serge, but, it has no trigger outs. Only audio out. As a possible workaround, would it work to somehow run the audio from the drum machine into the NCom and/or a combo of logic module to get some sort of syncing with the tempo and then clock dividing as needed? I'm pretty sure the Preamp detector would take care of this issue, but sadly its missing in my La Bestia II/Edelweiss II system. Appreciate any thoughts.

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Re: ? using NCom/Logic to sync Serge to External Drum Machine

Post by mestlick » Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:44 pm

Probably can run the audio of a short drum sound into a slope generator with a fast rise and slow fall to make a signal that can trigger other things.

The impulse sound from the Machinedrum will directly trigger Serge modules, just directly wiring the drum machine output to a trigger input.

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Re: ? using NCom/Logic to sync Serge to External Drum Machine

Post by gnome666 » Fri Feb 14, 2020 12:42 am

mestlick wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:44 pm
Probably can run the audio of a short drum sound into a slope generator with a fast rise and slow fall to make a signal that can trigger other things.

The impulse sound from the Machinedrum will directly trigger Serge modules, just directly wiring the drum machine output to a trigger input.
For those interested I tried just this and it mostly works well. My Univox/Korg drum machine only has mix audio out, so no isolating the snare or hats etc. But, for certain beats, it works pretty well. I took the audio out, into a bugbrand preamp, thento the input of a DUSG with a fast rise and exponential fall. I had to wiggle around with the fall time to get the sweet spot. I used the gate out of that DUSG to trigger a different DUSG with its own rise/fall to control the osc. You can see/hear in the vid that some drum patterns don't trigger at all, and some that do only do it on certain beats/drum sounds.

anyway, alot more experimenting to be done!


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Re: ? using NCom/Logic to sync Serge to External Drum Machine

Post by lud » Fri Feb 14, 2020 2:18 am

Nice vid!

You could try a filter between the preamp and dusg to try and isolate sounds / get more pronounced envelope following behaviour. Bandpass ideal or hp/lp for a different effect

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Re: ? using NCom/Logic to sync Serge to External Drum Machine

Post by gnome666 » Sat Feb 15, 2020 4:17 pm

came across this post, which is way more in depth and much more elegant.....will try it out and report back

https://sergemodularinfo.blogspot.com/p ... mable.html

edit: look, he even used the same drum machine I'm trying to sync :)


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Re: ? using NCom/Logic to sync Serge to External Drum Machine

Post by sanders » Sun Feb 16, 2020 12:00 am

It’s pretty easy to grab a 5v clock signal from inside of a Korg/Univox style drum box; then wire it to a spare jack (re-appropriate the “low” output jack for instance), or drill a new hole. With a bit more trouble, you can send a pulse in to sync the internal clock. Most of or many of the Korg range have web pages devoted to this topic.

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Re: ? using NCom/Logic to sync Serge to External Drum Machine

Post by gnome666 » Sun Feb 16, 2020 12:59 am

sanders wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 12:00 am
It’s pretty easy to grab a 5v clock signal from inside of a Korg/Univox style drum box; then wire it to a spare jack (re-appropriate the “low” output jack for instance), or drill a new hole. With a bit more trouble, you can send a pulse in to sync the internal clock. Most of or many of the Korg range have web pages devoted to this topic.
i briefly read about this, but I'm not the most tech-savy DIY-er in the world....maybe worth a shot though :)

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Re: ? using NCom/Logic to sync Serge to External Drum Machine

Post by Biom » Sun Feb 16, 2020 2:50 am

The dedicated preamp module is essential in any system. I hope RS are working on it, because otherwise their systems would gain very small interest among musicians/composers - nobody wants to buy an instrument, unable to be played with other instruments.

Glad the trick worked for you. As others mentioned, a filter is useful to filter out the "triggers" you'd want or not want (say, only a BD or a SD).
Note, that the higher the FALL of a USG, the more triggers you get and vice versa - if you don't want it to "read" every beat, then pushing down the FALL helps to "miss" some beats, but your envelope would be longer as well.
Also, I noticed that the USG is a bit picky to the incoming levels, so you have to experiment with them in you preamp and see what works the best. The USG led is very helpful in this regard. You can also make it track worse or "loose" (sometimes it's interesting) by pushing the levels too much or too little.

All this sounds like a joke, though, compared to 230e. I never really understood the need to put the Serge out of musical context and make it play just on its own, regarding its limitless potential.

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Re: ? using NCom/Logic to sync Serge to External Drum Machine

Post by the bad producer » Sun Feb 16, 2020 5:10 am

Indeed one could say a preamp or external input is essential. I often put my external input (ie looped audio) through a vocoder module first, then through one of a few types of comparators and / or slopes I’ve built especially for this job. Slope Detectors and similar are great too and it is something one can get quite into as a process in itself with a whole unit dedicated to doing this alone. This for example:
186AAB32-6438-42B2-BB3F-9842C190B31B.jpeg
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Re: ? using NCom/Logic to sync Serge to External Drum Machine

Post by Biom » Sun Feb 16, 2020 6:37 am

the bad producer wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 5:10 am
This for example:
Now this is avant-garde :sb:

PS your crazy pics often stimulate creativity somehow, not exactly in music

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Re: ? using NCom/Logic to sync Serge to External Drum Machine

Post by the bad producer » Sun Feb 16, 2020 7:01 am

Ha, thanks!

It was a bit OT I guess, but Preamp - Env Follower - Comparator - Slope - Comparator - Slope is one of my favourite patches, deriving timing and control information at each step

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Re: ? using NCom/Logic to sync Serge to External Drum Machine

Post by batchas » Sun Feb 16, 2020 1:09 pm

Biom wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 2:50 am
The dedicated preamp module is essential in any system. I hope RS are working on it, because otherwise their systems would gain very small interest among musicians/composers - nobody wants to buy an instrument, unable to be played with other instruments.

(...)

All this sounds like a joke, though, compared to 230e. I never really understood the need to put the Serge out of musical context and make it play just on its own, regarding its limitless potential.
???

I often have problem when I read a posts with terms like „nobody“ or „impossible“ or „everybody“, affirmations so to say without counterpoint.
I try not to react, as it leads to useless polemics, but I will here because I’m afraid forum readers not knowing well a system like the Serge for instance get the wrong picture after reading your comment.

I personally do not agree with your comment which I find very rigid. And obvioulsy a lot of musicians and composers did very well, with or without a preamp with the Serge during more than 4 decades.

@gnome666:
To answer your question: yes. For what you ask, like having a drum machine mix output and not a bass drum only for instance, a NCom and a ADSR for instance will do the job very well if you don't have a preamp.
Even direct to an extADSR or a DUSG would work if you had nothing else. Far to be best, but enough to have fun.
I'll make a video quickly.

EDIT: video is up.
I hope it helps.
Last edited by batchas on Sun Feb 16, 2020 2:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ? using NCom/Logic to sync Serge to External Drum Machine

Post by lud » Sun Feb 16, 2020 1:31 pm

This thread rules - crazy machine there loudestwarning and cool vid Batchas! :sb: :goo: :party:

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Re: ? using NCom/Logic to sync Serge to External Drum Machine

Post by gnome666 » Sun Feb 16, 2020 3:43 pm

the bad producer wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 5:10 am
Indeed one could say a preamp or external input is essential. I often put my external input (ie looped audio) through a vocoder module first, then through one of a few types of comparators and / or slopes I’ve built especially for this job. Slope Detectors and similar are great too and it is something one can get quite into as a process in itself with a whole unit dedicated to doing this alone. This for example:

186AAB32-6438-42B2-BB3F-9842C190B31B.jpeg
thats why I'm forcing you to put one in the panel I'm planning with you :hail: :sb: :guinness:

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Re: ? using NCom/Logic to sync Serge to External Drum Machine

Post by gnome666 » Sun Feb 16, 2020 3:45 pm

batchas wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 1:09 pm
Biom wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 2:50 am
The dedicated preamp module is essential in any system. I hope RS are working on it, because otherwise their systems would gain very small interest among musicians/composers - nobody wants to buy an instrument, unable to be played with other instruments.

(...)

All this sounds like a joke, though, compared to 230e. I never really understood the need to put the Serge out of musical context and make it play just on its own, regarding its limitless potential.
???

I often have problem when I read a posts with terms like „nobody“ or „impossible“ or „everybody“, affirmations so to say without counterpoint.
I try not to react, as it leads to useless polemics, but I will here because I’m afraid forum readers not knowing well a system like the Serge for instance get the wrong picture after reading your comment.

I personally do not agree with your comment which I find very rigid. And obvioulsy a lot of musicians and composers did very well, with or without a preamp with the Serge during more than 4 decades.

@gnome666:
To answer your question: yes. For what you ask, like having a drum machine mix output and not a bass drum only for instance, a NCom and a ADSR for instance will do the job very well if you don't have a preamp.
Even direct to an extADSR or a DUSG would work if you had nothing else. Far to be best, but enough to have fun.
I'll make a video quickly.

EDIT: video is up.
I hope it helps.
AWESOME! Thanks for the vid batchas!!! :hail:

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Re: ? using NCom/Logic to sync Serge to External Drum Machine

Post by Biom » Sun Feb 16, 2020 4:08 pm

@the bad producer Yes! Preamp - Env Follower - Comparator - Slope - Comparator - Slope sounds like a proper sync) Basically, it's the most one can get out of a modular.

@batchas Your videos are very cool, thanks!
Now try syncing your portable Serge system to a bassdrum and a snare independently. A drum player's using phantom mics? Damn. Only one external input? Damn. All USG's are already busy in a patch? Damn again. So why not develop a dedicated module? It's not rocket science at all!

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Re: ? using NCom/Logic to sync Serge to External Drum Machine

Post by gnome666 » Sun Feb 16, 2020 9:26 pm

@batchas :yay: :hail:

heres a vid doing just what you suggested: drum machine audio->preamp->notch filter->NCOM->DUSG clocking TKB

the bottom trace of the o'toole is the drum audio and the top trace are the pulse outputs from the NCOM. It takes some finessing of the filter frequency and DUSG fall time to get it perfectly sync'd, but not too difficult. Once it's sync'd its pretty rock solid. You can hear in the video when I change drum patterns it still maintains the clock rate.

Thanks for everyones comments!


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Re: ? using NCom/Logic to sync Serge to External Drum Machine

Post by batchas » Mon Feb 17, 2020 1:24 am

Biom wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 4:08 pm
@batchasNow try syncing your portable Serge system to a bassdrum and a snare independently. A drum player's using phantom mics? Damn. Only one external input? Damn. All USG's are already busy in a patch? Damn again. So why not develop a dedicated module? It's not rocket science at all!
Send a gate signal to the drummer via headphones :hihi:

I have to admit the NCom is most of the time free in my system, as I rarely use it. Very useful though.

You're right, no rocket science indeed. STS did one for the Serge, Ken Stone too...
R*S is slowly going through Serge modules and might do one in the future... Maybe. But I understand it's not their priority. You don't see them in use very much. Nor in Buchla or Eurorack world actually.
Bottom part of the schematics (PRE IN):
http://www.serge.synth.net/modules/8875rev/index.html
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Re: ? using NCom/Logic to sync Serge to External Drum Machine

Post by Biom » Mon Feb 17, 2020 6:11 am

batchas wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 1:24 am
But I understand it's not their priority. You don't see them in use very much. Nor in Buchla or Eurorack world actually.
Bottom part of the schematics (PRE IN):
http://www.serge.synth.net/modules/8875rev/index.html
With all respect, I disagree here. If the instrument is poor at accompanying other instruments (or even worse - unable to do this), then it's not a great instrument and not a great interface either, which is an absolute fail within electronic instruments world. Luckily that's not the case with Serge interface, being pretty good, but regarding preamp-env follower, I don't know how come it utilises such an ancient preamp design, looking like an exotic feature "people would never use anyway". And they use it as such - it's true.

You mentioned Buchla here, but I also disagree. It would not be so well-balanced, playable and musical without the 230e. I've seen it on stage and it was an unforgettable experience - the performance itself and the interaction with other instruments' rhythms and amplitudes. It's a dream module both for composing and performing, not only because of the players' interaction, but because of the interaction with other instruments.
I'm very optimistic about Serge being put in such musical context too, because of what is possible.

The point of electronic instruments is not to replace acoustic ones, but to accompany them to achieve new ways of synergy or syncretism. That's a subjective statement, but isn't it beautiful?

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Re: ? using NCom/Logic to sync Serge to External Drum Machine

Post by teezdalien » Mon Feb 17, 2020 6:44 am

Biom wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 6:11 am
batchas wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 1:24 am
But I understand it's not their priority. You don't see them in use very much. Nor in Buchla or Eurorack world actually.
Bottom part of the schematics (PRE IN):
http://www.serge.synth.net/modules/8875rev/index.html
With all respect, I disagree here. If the instrument is poor at accompanying other instruments (or even worse - unable to do this), then it's not a great instrument and not a great interface either, which is an absolute fail within electronic instruments world. Luckily that's not the case with Serge interface, being pretty good, but regarding preamp-env follower, I don't know how come it utilises such an ancient preamp design, looking like an exotic feature "people would never use anyway". And they use it as such - it's true.

You mentioned Buchla here, but I also disagree. It would not be so well-balanced, playable and musical without the 230e. I've seen it on stage and it was an unforgettable experience - the performance itself and the interaction with other instruments' rhythms and amplitudes. It's a dream module both for composing and performing, not only because of the players' interaction, but because of the interaction with other instruments.
I'm very optimistic about Serge being put in such musical context too, because of what is possible.

The point of electronic instruments is not to replace acoustic ones, but to accompany them to achieve new ways of synergy or syncretism. That's a subjective statement, but isn't it beautiful?
wtf? You don't see any kind of pre-amp designs on any kind of classical musical instruments, and that doesn't detract from the instrument being able to accompany other instruments does it? You don't need env. followers and clock sync and all that jazz for an instrument to be able to accompany another instrument in a useful context. I'm not saying these options are not worthwhile or useless just, that is some seriously flawed logic. :hmm:

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Re: ? using NCom/Logic to sync Serge to External Drum Machine

Post by Biom » Mon Feb 17, 2020 1:18 pm

teezdalien wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 6:44 am
wtf? You don't see any kind of pre-amp designs on any kind of classical musical instruments
You don’t see knobs and leds on them either.
Not sure, what’s your point, but if you are to play an electronic instrument, you have to deal with “all that jazz”, which sometimes becomes awkward, I agree

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Re: ? using NCom/Logic to sync Serge to External Drum Machine

Post by batchas » Mon Feb 17, 2020 3:36 pm

Biom wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 6:11 am
With all respect, I disagree here.
(...)
You mentioned Buchla here, but I also disagree.
:tu:
The 230r is the first module I'd take out of my system if I had no space left. Actually, maybe I already too it out, I don't remember. But anyway, it shows we have simply a different use of the intrument, which is abs. ok. As long as we have fun with it, the rest does not really matters.

Here's the 230r with Serge together. Sound of video goes directly to 230r.
After watching this video you'll think: "thanx god he took the 230 out of his system!!!" :party:
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Re: ? using NCom/Logic to sync Serge to External Drum Machine

Post by Biom » Tue Feb 18, 2020 10:56 am

To be honest, I have a folder " batchas" in my browser (been digging your Serge videos for years and learnt a lot!), but this particular one isn't in my folder, yet I got the idea)

Here's a great example of a pretty intense use of 230, accompanied by euro, which, I guess, utilises something similar:

The great thing about this module is that you don't necessarily think rhythms. It's just a trigger for any possible event (chords, sustained notes, delay sync, whatever), just keeping you in sync, no matter what the drummer is up to, which gives him much freedom too. In studio context it has a lot of use too, if you need to extract something useful from a piece of audio and process this audio at the same time, like you did, though in a sarcastic way)

And here's a not so great example, where sync failed pretty much, no matter how skilful these 2 legends are:

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Re: ? using NCom/Logic to sync Serge to External Drum Machine

Post by syncretism » Mon Feb 24, 2020 5:35 pm

Biom wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 6:11 am
The point of electronic instruments is not to replace acoustic ones, but to accompany them to achieve new ways of synergy or syncretism.
This is an outrage.
;)

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