EMS Synthi waiting list

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Re: EMS Synthi waiting list

Post by seditionary » Wed Dec 30, 2020 2:38 am

papz wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 10:33 am
metal film resistors...
If he said he was using carbon based in 2015, I wonder when he made the switch? What year are those from with the film resistors? When I check in on the list I might ask him about it :)

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Re: EMS Synthi waiting list

Post by Rudloe » Wed Dec 30, 2020 4:44 am

jfloftin wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 4:53 pm
Rudloe wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 3:52 pm

A decade... that is quite simply insane.

There's every chance i'll be dead by then lol.

I plan on getting one before I die though, even if it is an older fully serviced model.

Thanks for the reply and have fun with yours mate.
I have sympathy for what you are saying above. It may seem insane but as they say "it is what it is". You got to look at it though, that wiring harness is labor intensive to say the least. Are there ways around it? Yes, but I don't think Robin would do it, I just don't see it. He is not going to alter the base unit of VCS3s and Synthi 'A's. What he is doing is really a cottage industry. With that in mind, the speed at which units are built is slow mostly because of the wiring harness. There are two different ones, one for the VCS3, the other for the Synthi 'A'. Actually Robin started taking checks for new units in the late 90s but had to finish the run of "Soundbeams" before he could concentrate on building Synthi 'A's or VCS3s. He didn't start production of them till 2011. So there was the built in "back log" of customers. I have a friend who sent his check in the late 90s and did not get his Synthi 'A' till 2012. I was jealous and got on the VCS3 list as soon as I could (2012). At that time, Robin was not adding more to the Synthi 'A' list (and trust me, I begged). For me that is unfortunate in that I could have gotten on the Synthi 'A' list sooner just specifying to Robin that I would just get a case later (which is what I have done).

As for getting an old/used unit, good luck, it's going to cost you upwards of £7,500 or more for a used one (and that is if you are lucky, they typically go for much more than that used!). You could contact "Tone Tweakers" right now. They have a silver faced Synthi AKS for sale right now. I bet it is around $20,000 like the last one... Luckily as you can see by my avatar, I already have one, so I am not in a hurry to get one. I'll tell you this, the silver faced units are good. They stay in tune and scale better than the older white faced ones. I think the silver faced ones had the dual can transistors for osc 1 and 2. I know my old silver faced AKS had the dual can transistors and it tracked and scaled fairly well all things considered.

Off topic, you know, a new Synthi base unit is rather expensive at £5,950 but the new small Moog Modular Model 10 is $9,950 (about £7,400). Note, the Moog Modular Model 10 is a limited edition so, once they sell out, they're gone...
Thanks for the reply. I'd rather spend £10k on a Synthi than the Moog.

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Re: EMS Synthi waiting list

Post by papz » Wed Dec 30, 2020 6:49 am

Once again : there's no difference in sound between carbon and metal film resistors except in the imagination of some. :razz:
My guess is one type or another can be used, according to the customer's preference.
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Re: EMS Synthi waiting list

Post by jfloftin » Wed Dec 30, 2020 9:18 am

papz wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 6:49 am
Once again : there's no difference in sound between carbon and metal film resistors except in the imagination of some. :razz:
My guess is one type or another can be used, according to the customer's preference.
This! Also, the accuracy of the resistors would make the preset settings on the boards sets change but you still have to set them even with the more accurate metal film types. Papz is right about resistors.

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Re: EMS Synthi waiting list

Post by fatbenelton » Wed Dec 30, 2020 9:32 am

Joined the waiting list Summer 2020 - Number 147 for a VCS3. Robin reckons 4 years, I’m thinking 10!

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Re: EMS Synthi waiting list

Post by seditionary » Thu Dec 31, 2020 9:46 pm

jfloftin wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 9:18 am
papz wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 6:49 am
Once again : there's no difference in sound between carbon and metal film resistors except in the imagination of some. :razz:
My guess is one type or another can be used, according to the customer's preference.
This! Also, the accuracy of the resistors would make the preset settings on the boards sets change but you still have to set them even with the more accurate metal film types. Papz is right about resistors.
Interesting — on some different recording audio forums I’d read the older engineers swearing by the sound of the older desks because of the sound of the carbon based resistors.

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Re: EMS Synthi waiting list

Post by seditionary » Thu Dec 31, 2020 9:47 pm

fatbenelton wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 9:32 am
Joined the waiting list Summer 2020 - Number 147 for a VCS3. Robin reckons 4 years, I’m thinking 10!
unless something changes your guess is probably closer to correct i’d imagine :)

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Re: EMS Synthi waiting list

Post by fatbenelton » Fri Jan 01, 2021 5:12 am

seditionary wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 9:47 pm
fatbenelton wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 9:32 am
Joined the waiting list Summer 2020 - Number 147 for a VCS3. Robin reckons 4 years, I’m thinking 10!
unless something changes your guess is probably closer to correct i’d imagine :)
I think so. In any case, I probably need 10 years to save up the purchase price!!

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Re: EMS Synthi waiting list

Post by DREIPOLAR » Fri Jan 01, 2021 7:42 am

fatbenelton wrote:
Fri Jan 01, 2021 5:12 am
I think so. In any case, I probably need 10 years to save up the purchase price!!
you people need to think in decades not years. just for the new year: if you are still waiting when behringer comes up with the behringer VCS4 FOR 399.- ... just buy it with money and product exchanged right there and then.

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Re: EMS Synthi waiting list

Post by papz » Fri Jan 01, 2021 8:37 am

You guy need to understand that this thread is about the new EMS Cornwall Synthi production. No one here cares of Behringer and your pointless trolling is not welcome.
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Re: EMS Synthi waiting list

Post by papz » Sat Jan 02, 2021 6:39 am

Interesting — on some different recording audio forums I’d read the older engineers swearing by the sound of the older desks because of the sound of the carbon based resistors.
Some people believe that carbon resistors sound warmer and metal film sound colder, or that components with golden leads sound richer or that old parts sound more vintage and more musical, or that THT components sound bigger than SMD, or that the expo converter affects an oscillator's sound and timbre, or that tropical fish caps sound more colored, or that the dust in an old tube amp is an essential part of its "mojo"...
Such beliefs border more on the esoterics and "idiophilia" than on actual facts.
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I'm not a synths dealer and I'm not aware of an inexpensive Synthi secret market, please don't ask me if I know one for sale.
I don't offer support of any kind to people attempting to build clones of EMS equipment.

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Re: EMS Synthi waiting list

Post by Portabella » Sat Jan 02, 2021 9:02 am

papz wrote:
Sat Jan 02, 2021 6:39 am
Interesting — on some different recording audio forums I’d read the older engineers swearing by the sound of the older desks because of the sound of the carbon based resistors.
Some people believe that carbon resistors sound warmer and metal film sound colder, or that components with golden leads sound richer or that old parts sound more vintage and more musical, or that THT components sound bigger than SMD, or that the expo converter affects an oscillator's sound and timbre, or that tropical fish caps sound more colored, or that the dust in an old tube amp is an essential part of its "mojo"...
Such beliefs border more on the esoterics and "idiophilia" than on actual facts.
You're not only an EMS specialist but also a pro in denying physical facts, he?
There's scientific evidence that carbon and metal film resistors will have largely different noise and distortions figures.
Same applies to modern SMD caps vs. old tropical fish..etc
Here's just one whitepaper which touches that topic:

https://pub.dega-akustik.de/ICA2019/dat ... 001261.pdf

there's dozens more .. do your homework

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Re: EMS Synthi waiting list

Post by papz » Sat Jan 02, 2021 12:49 pm

I won't comment on what I think you are but be sure I have a strong opinion. :mrgreen:

There are plenty of similar articles on the web indeed, there are even idiophile forums where people discuss such matters only, you'd feel better there.
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I don't offer support of any kind to people attempting to build clones of EMS equipment.

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Re: EMS Synthi waiting list

Post by jfloftin » Sat Jan 02, 2021 1:00 pm

papz wrote:
Sat Jan 02, 2021 12:49 pm
I won't comment on what I think you are but be sure I have a strong opinion. :mrgreen:

There are plenty of similar articles on the web indeed, there are even idiophile forums where people discuss such matters only, you'd feel better there.
Yeah, @papz, he's trolling you for sure. So @Portabella, lets tame it down and if you want to take this further just pm him and keep it out of here.

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Re: EMS Synthi waiting list

Post by seditionary » Sun Jan 03, 2021 12:55 pm

papz wrote:
Sat Jan 02, 2021 6:39 am
Interesting — on some different recording audio forums I’d read the older engineers swearing by the sound of the older desks because of the sound of the carbon based resistors.
Some people believe that carbon resistors sound warmer and metal film sound colder... Such beliefs border more on the esoterics and "idiophilia"...
Portabella wrote:
Sat Jan 02, 2021 9:02 am
papz wrote:
Sat Jan 02, 2021 6:39 am
Interesting — on some different recording audio forums I’d read the older engineers swearing by the sound of the older desks because of the sound of the carbon based resistors.
You're not only an EMS specialist but also a pro in denying physical facts, he?
There's scientific evidence that carbon and metal film resistors will have largely different noise and distortions figures.
Same applies to modern SMD caps vs. old tropical fish..etc
Here's just one whitepaper which touches that topic:

https://pub.dega-akustik.de/ICA2019/dat ... 001261.pdf

there's dozens more .. do your homework
Papz & Portabella — isn’t the point of forums to discuss these things without name calling in either direction? It would be nice to try to stick to the discussion on circuits and sound without it, no? :)

Papz — It isn’t being an idiot to discuss physics, is it?

In the first class I took at Caltech in basic circuit design — I was taught that even the length of the leads on a component or wire will change the sound of a signal... with a longer cable or longer lead on a component, there is more resistance for the electrons to make it through. If a PhD of physics lectures about a longer component creating resistance for an electron which would change the sound, surely discussing the electrons passing through carbon vs metal film would create a greater effect as outlined?

This is the EMS thread — if the discussion of components and sound doesn’t matter to you, I could perhaps echo what the other person said — you might be happy with a Behringer. I’d assume the long timing from Robin is also because of finding matched components etc to make a great sounding circuit rather than using whatever is available and cheapest and making them in a factory in China?

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Re: EMS Synthi waiting list

Post by seditionary » Sun Jan 03, 2021 1:02 pm

...which is obviously why I want one from Robin :tu:

Papz — have you done much blind testing between a circuit full of metal film and old carbon based resistors? Is that how you are coming to your strong opinion on the matter?

Thanks

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Re: EMS Synthi waiting list

Post by papz » Sun Jan 03, 2021 3:58 pm

I've worked on several recent Synthis built with metal film resitors and could compare with older units built with carbon ones since I test intensively every instrument I work on. Having worked on over 80 Synthis and owning 4 myself makes me quite aware of how they sound and behave.
Different resistors, different caps, different diodes, different transistors, different cables, different pots, different speakers, different connectors, different transformers, different bridge rectifiers, different boards, different panels, different reverb tanks... were used to build Synthis according to what was available at the time and they all sound like a Synthi.

I've built, serviced, rescued and played dozens of 208 clones, over 50 in total, some with metal film resistors, some with carbon ones and some with a mix of both, same here.
Even Captnapalm whose original 70s Easel was the father of all clones built his own 208 clones with metal film resistors and confirmed they sound like the original one. This Easel now belongs to an Australian friend, I've seen, heard and played it when I visited him and can confirm as well.

I'm not in a position to comment on Robin's timings and schedule but I would be very very surprised if the cause is what you assume.

I'm pretty upset by all this esoteric and cloudy beliefs regarding the holy vintage parts required to invoke whatever magic some think is contained in old electronics. I do my best to be as clear as possible and bring the truth to light. This caused, causes and will cause again attack and hassle from various people such as
- the dealers who take advantage of the old parts high market prices
- the buyers who hardly can admit they spent $$$$ on parts that are 100% replaceable with others that cost a small fraction of what they paid
- the geeks who think they touched the Secret of the Sound because they read about vintage parts on some forums although they don't have the smallest idea of what a component actually does in a circuit

As a professional synth tech I have to deal with this situation almost on a daily basis.
It would be so much easier and more interesting financially to me to let people believe such crap and charge them $$$$ for old parts but this is not how I am and how I mean to run my business. My aim is to offer the service I'd like to receive and I definitely wouldn't want anyone to tell me bullshit because that's what I want to ear.

To conclude I'll add that these so-called scientific articles (I don't want to start discussing the protocols here) are not about synthesizers but hi-fi recording and playing and the circuits in a synthesizer are not the ones in a console, a disc player or an amplifier. Although there are obvious common points, to take these a reference and amalgamate this way regarding synths is already a mistake from the begining.
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Re: EMS Synthi waiting list

Post by KSS » Sun Jan 03, 2021 11:21 pm

:agree:

@seditionary
A respected physics professor may still be an audiophool. Knowledge of one does not make him a master of the other. The truth is in the first part of what he said. There is a physics difference. The part he got wrong is its effect -or the level of that effect- on the sound of an entire system. Johnson noise is real, as are inductance and resistance differences. But your professor mis-characterized their result and you're now exhibiting an anchor bias.

There are *many* examples of people -even highly educated and experienced people- holding misinformed, outdated, or blatantly incorrect conclusions as fact. It goes far beyond electronics and physics. We probably ALL have at least one such held belief.

----------------
I will argue that you can't jump straight from a TH layout and parts to an SMD layout and parts without taking physics into consideration. One technology is not better or worse, and both can end up with the same result. But their path to do so may not be identical. What I'm saying here is that the wrong arguments are being made. It's not SMD vs TH. It's other things related to the change between the two.

And as papz hints, much of the scientific literature quoted is correct in the quote, but unfortunately the context is missed. So many articles about these issues deal with levels and frequencies so far outside synth use that it should be obvious they don't apply. I'm sure many of the quoted experts would say as much if pressed. An artical about what happens at MHz and GHz may not have much validity to a synth perspective. unless we're talking about EMI. Unfortunately many will see the PhD on the byline and miss that the article doesn't apply.

Edit: I have for quite a number of years now done blind testing of some of these beliefs. Usually single blind rather than double since I know the underlying elements. But I have also chosen not to be present in some of this testing. My aim in doing the testing is not to prove any component superiority or lack, but is rather based on panel perception and its importance. My primary study in synths is not music but psychoacoustics.
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Re: EMS Synthi waiting list

Post by seditionary » Mon Jan 04, 2021 5:56 am

papz wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 3:58 pm
Different resistors, different caps, different diodes, different transistors, different cables, different pots, different speakers, different connectors, different transformers, different bridge rectifiers, different boards, different panels, different reverb tanks... were used to build Synthis according to what was available at the time and they all sound like a Synthi...
I'm pretty upset by all this esoteric and cloudy beliefs regarding the holy vintage parts required to invoke whatever magic some think is contained in old electronics.
Thanks for your time and for sharing, Papz.

On Buchla clones, there is a thread about the 259... one is made with new components from the BOM and the other sourcing some of the vintage components found in many of the original circuits. Both sound like a 259 (and sound great), but obviously there is a noticeable difference in the sound. Here is the YouTube link that a member posted. The second waveform is the 259 built with vintage components.



To your point about how the talk is more related to recording consoles than the synths... I think of them both as instruments... every part of my circuit chain I am interested in as it is all shaping the sound. I do have vintage recording equipment with tubes and transformers that saturate and sure, can take a more modern sounding synth sound and record it through a circuit to color a signal... but I like more color wherever possible in all stages of the signal path :)

(I have a 259 clone full of film caps that I very much love the sound of). I didn’t build it though and don’t know how close the BOM was followed or not — so many IC’s & so many transistors too!

I remember when I was at Caltech, I was speaking with an engineer who couldn’t understand why oh why was I hand building op amps based on a 1970’s design and I told him I wanted the distortion in the preamp I was building. He couldn’t understand how distortion could be musical as he was only seeing it on paper... so yes, there is a difference between paper and sound from using ears!

On not being able to hear the resistance a certain kind of cable creates in a signal path... I’ve also done blind tests between different high quality cables and have been able to pick the cable I prefer about 90% of the time even with short cable runs... that was many years ago now though, ha

I don’t do much circuit building anymore, but I used to have fun maybe swapping a value of a resistor here or there to get a bit more or less of a certain frequency on a filter and enjoyed hearing different components and the effects they produce in a signal path. I’ve also salvaged old components out of equipment and used old hand painted resistors of the same values in a circuit and heard a difference I could easily pick out in an A/B test (much easier than different brands of cable)... perhaps because the +\- variance was rated differently on the resistors than the newer components, maybe the material, maybe both.

I also like adding different ingredients to pasta sauce to make it a “magic” tasting one. Sure, winter tomatoes vs canned tomatoes plucked at the warmest part
of the summer will both taste like a pasta sauce... but there will be a difference. I can add something else on top to change the taste of winter tomatoes and morph them into something more delicious, but I’d rather have the summer tomatoes alone and add the additional components to taste 🎛〰️👅

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Re: EMS Synthi waiting list

Post by papz » Mon Jan 04, 2021 7:27 am

How can you be sure that the difference between the 259s is well related to the use of old parts and not rather related to build quality, calibration, vactrols tolerance, some parts that should be selected on test... ?
According to my experience with 208s, paying a careful attention to these points has a much more significant impact on the operation than the components type, age or brand.
Last edited by papz on Mon Jan 04, 2021 8:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: EMS Synthi waiting list

Post by KSS » Mon Jan 04, 2021 7:49 am

^Exactly.

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Re: EMS Synthi waiting list

Post by papz » Mon Jan 04, 2021 8:26 am

The timbre in the 208's CO is a very good example of circuit where parts selection, in this case a vactrol and a resistor, is essential and makes a huge difference.
I haven't built a 259 myself but the circuit should be quite similar to the 208's and the difference between the waveforms in the video could be cleared by proper selection on test of the related components and calibration.
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I don't offer support of any kind to people attempting to build clones of EMS equipment.

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Re: EMS Synthi waiting list

Post by Lorenzo_F » Sun Jan 10, 2021 1:40 pm

fatbenelton wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 9:32 am
Joined the waiting list Summer 2020 - Number 147 for a VCS3. Robin reckons 4 years, I’m thinking 10!
I am going to join the waiting list for a VCS3 very very soon....for me it will be 15 tears :waah:

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Re: EMS Synthi waiting list

Post by fatbenelton » Sun Jan 10, 2021 2:26 pm

Lorenzo_F wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 1:40 pm
fatbenelton wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 9:32 am
Joined the waiting list Summer 2020 - Number 147 for a VCS3. Robin reckons 4 years, I’m thinking 10!
I am going to join the waiting list for a VCS3 very very soon....for me it will be 15 tears :waah:
Plenty of time to save up the money!

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Re: EMS Synthi waiting list

Post by Lorenzo_F » Sun Jan 10, 2021 2:34 pm

fatbenelton wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 2:26 pm
Lorenzo_F wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 1:40 pm
fatbenelton wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 9:32 am
Joined the waiting list Summer 2020 - Number 147 for a VCS3. Robin reckons 4 years, I’m thinking 10!
I am going to join the waiting list for a VCS3 very very soon....for me it will be 15 tears :waah:
Plenty of time to save up the money!

I guess this is the right approach ;)

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