no-input mixer experience

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igormpc
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no-input mixer experience

Post by igormpc » Tue Mar 02, 2010 3:13 pm

http://soundcloud.com/igormedeiros/no-i ... 002-mx802a
(my behringer mx802a self-patched).

what do you think?
do you know where i can find more info about no-input mixer?

thx in advance
igor

xart

Post by xart » Tue Mar 02, 2010 3:19 pm

I remember this fad of the avant garden in the 90's... :hihi:

:google Toshimaru Nakamura ... he does some great stuff!
My favorite are the recordings with Keith Rowe + Nakamura. :sb:

PS- I dig your track! Good stuff, thanks! :tu:
Last edited by xart on Tue Mar 02, 2010 3:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Lyonel
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Post by Lyonel » Tue Mar 02, 2010 3:22 pm

Cuicas all along ! Very Brazilian :party:

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igormpc
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Post by igormpc » Tue Mar 02, 2010 3:34 pm

@lyonel
i prefer buchla's cuicas than behringer's:
[video][/video]
(doug's nice samba!)
:hihi:

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Mood Organ
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Post by Mood Organ » Tue Mar 02, 2010 3:41 pm

You might also check out AVVA

Toshimaru Nakamura + Billy Roisz

no-input mixer audio and video

They released a DVD on Erstwhile

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Lyonel
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Post by Lyonel » Tue Mar 02, 2010 3:47 pm

that's a very great one, indeed (doug's nice samba) !

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Hi5
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Post by Hi5 » Tue Mar 02, 2010 5:21 pm

keep in mind though that the no-input mixer nonsense has not been a stand alone situation. The few times I have played with/along side Nakamura-san he has had effect processors to get more than 4 sounds out of the rig and create loops. It is a cute concept and all but as your primary 'instrument' there aren't many places to go with it without external help. The music tends to be minimal for a reason.

although I will take no-input over a solo contact mic performance or 4 motors on pieces of metal any day!

(maybe you can tell I don't care for the trend of japanese reductionism)

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Post by onrust nv » Fri Mar 05, 2010 4:02 pm

well with a behringer mixer(who cares if it breaks) it's easy to make weird noises. 2 or 3 of these mixers and some behringer delays and a summing mixer and you can play a genuine no-input set.
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Hi5
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Post by Hi5 » Fri Mar 05, 2010 4:19 pm

fuck no-input.
no-output is the future man.

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Post by onrust nv » Fri Mar 05, 2010 5:35 pm

no input :sb:

NO FUTURE :eyes:
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bryan
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Re: no-input mixer experience

Post by bryan » Thu Mar 11, 2010 1:08 am

igormpc wrote:do you know where i can find more info about no-input mixer?
one of the more esoteric things i've found on google scholar search..

it's a PDF of someone's thesis project on this very thing:

http://knut.klingt.org/docs/Knut%20Aufermann%20MA%20Sonic%20Arts.pdf

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Post by igormpc » Thu Mar 11, 2010 7:53 am

very useful material @bryan !!!! :yay:

thx!!!!!!

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Post by Soy Sos » Thu Mar 11, 2010 9:29 am

I thought there were some great rhythms and patterns within. Maybe for the hell of it throw a cheap (behringer?) compressor at the output to tame some of those peaks a bit. Also certainly don't hesitate to insert FX pedals in some of those loops. I saw this great couple from Chicago do a beautiful performance with interconnected feedback matrixes. Different thing I know. I liked the other piece as well. You should put up more music.

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re: no-input mixer experience

Post by knut » Fri Mar 12, 2010 9:32 am

I'm glad someone found my thesis on feedback music. I can also recommend the 'feedback' issue of the Resonance magazine, which is available online here:
http://www.l-m-c.org.uk/text/feedback.html

For my online sound installation based on a mix of no-input mixer and no-input fm transmitter sounds, check this:
http://knut.klingt.org/installations.html

cheers Knut

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Post by igormpc » Thu Mar 18, 2010 10:25 am

thx @knut
good info on your thesis and on the links --
i didn't know resonance magazine, great reading!

thx @soysos for your suggestions.
nice that you liked the other song also, i really like it -
i am just waiting for my new analog modular system to join my nord modular in other songs! :)

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no-input on modular

Post by jnumberg » Sat Jul 03, 2010 11:34 pm

After some (never enough) research, I'm still confused about using/routing modular gear for no-or-minimal input.

I'm familiar only with no input mixing with pedals and am unsure how or if it's even possible to translate this to modular.

Case 1 on a mixer, e.g. cheap behringer:
Left Main Out to Lin In 1, Right Main Out or Phones to Monitor
This gives clicks with varying frequency with low-end turned up
getting shrill and constant with highs pushed up, lows down

transl. ??? An amplifier like A-183-3 with Out 1 to In 1 and
Out 2 to Mixer/Mon.? Some sort of filter for varying frequency???

Case 2. Same as above with Delay like A-188-1 patched between the ouroboric line in the Amp from Out1 to In1. On a mixer, turning down the delay time to around 15 ms makes a comb filter sound. Does this translate to modular arena??

Case 3. With the Behringer, I can then mix the delay line, from R-out, and the straight feedback, L-out, Phones out to monitor. This allows one to find points at which the addition of feedback to the mix changes the tone of the delay/comb to a new equilibrium.

With a bit of messing around one can create tone shifts that resemble something musical. So would this be possible with something like two A-183-3's one simply plugged into itself the other plugged into itself with the delay,then both to a mixer??? Something seems wrong here!

I'm imagining a modular with a bunch of delays in parallel, I guess, plus some filters? LFO? maybe a comb filter for some Karplus-Strong hits to set delays into oscillation.

tldr:noob wants to know how do you do no-input stuff on modular
Last edited by jnumberg on Tue Jul 13, 2010 6:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Pockets McCoy
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Re: no-input on modular

Post by Pockets McCoy » Sun Jul 04, 2010 2:22 am

jnumberg wrote:tldr:noob wants to know how do you do no-input stuff on modular
Well, no-input feedback mixers are primitive-ass oscillators. The beauty of a modular is that you don't have to "push anything into oscillation" because you've got oscillators that do that for you without having to patch anything. Plenty of ways to dirty it up from there (and there are also some straight up wild-ass oscillators that dirty themselves up all over the place and eventually can't tell if they're wearing pants or not).

While there are such things as external audio input modules, a modular synth is about as no-input as you can get. If you're seriously thinking about going modular, make sure you do a bunch of research and know exactly what you're looking at before diving into it with hopeful ears, closed eyes, and an open wallet. I don't mean that offensively at all, you're just approaching it from a standpoint that's only going to complicate things. No-input mixer and some pedals to full-on modular is by no means a smooth transition (unless you've already got knowledge of/experience with synthesis and happened to be playing with mixer feedback due to curiosity and/or a lack of funds for a synth). A modular gives you a tremendously larger toolbox, as well as tons of electronic extra hands to turn knobs for you while your hands are busy with other things.

"How can I translate no-input mixer techniques to modular?" is the wrong question to be asking yourself. Rather, try something like "I've got this mixer patched up like this...what exactly is going on?"

To actually answer your questions directly:

Case 1: Your mixer is basically a way-too-complicated oscillator (with 3 separate, limited controls over the frequency that all behave differently). Modular: An oscillator module. Several waveform outputs (inaudible sine/triangle waves and the ticketty-tick of squares/saws/pulses at a low frequency setting, all popping up into audio range with a twist of the frequency knob (or a control voltage to the frequency cv input)). Possibly even one with a variable-waveform out, or internal waveshaping if you want something more directly akin to mixer feedback with pedals in the loop.

Case 2: Yep, you can do comb filters with modular delays. Or comb filter modules.

Case 3: Something is wrong there. Modular synths take you WAY beyond the need to "search" around for sweet spots to make sounds that "resemble something musical". Based on what's been said, what's wrong with that picture? Think much more simply...you don't have to "do anything wrong" or use something for anything other than its intended purpose(s) to make things happen, you've got modules that do those things already. You seem to be quite familiar with circumventing the "intent" of a piece of equipment in order to get it to behave differently. The modular gets rid of all that; as I said, ponder what's actually going on in your mixer feedback setup and figure out which modules already perform those functions without having to abuse or work around the limitations of a device not intended for the purpose in question.

:nana:

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Post by jnumberg » Sun Jul 04, 2010 2:48 am

Wow thank you so much for the well thought-out reply. Yeah I'm so used to circumventing mixers and pedals, I'm not sure I could even do it right...I just have this feeling modular might be what I've been looking for, sonically, all along, having been ignorant of modular stuff for an unreasonably long time.

Yeah, and this whole time I thought I didn't need any vco's, and would just go on producing my basic palette with delay/mixer feedback. You've revealed how foolish that idea was, thank you, haha. I guess it would be nice to just be able to get those sounds on-the-fly w/o wrangling a usable tone with 3+ separate lines of feedback...

I really had no idea mixers had anything to do with oscillators, but I know next to nothing about electronics...sorry, I'm learning.

Thank you for the sage advice, I'm much better informed and will continue research.

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Post by slovo » Mon Jul 05, 2010 12:18 pm

If you like mixer music, you'll probably love modulars, but the beauty of making no-input mixer music seems to really be in its simple, cheap, creative nature, imho. So buying a modular to get it done, yeah, seems like major overkill -- like building a custom Porsche to upgrade your go-kart. but buying a modular will make awesome noises, yes. :sb: You just... won't qualify for go-kart races anymore. You might want to start by buying one of the many semi-modulars available first, to get an idea for what all the pieces do, and how they interact. If you buy used, you can probably get back close to what you put into it, cashwise, if/when you decide that a full modular is for you.

Re-reading your post I see you're talking about no-input pedals music, but I am lazy, so kindly replace "mixer music" with "pedals music" lol. But in actuality, you're already very familiar with modular synthesis, you just don't know it yet. Your basic sound is probably feedback, right, which is somewhat equivalent to a very limited sine oscillator (actually, isn't it functionally more like a self-oscillating res filter?). This is what Mr. McCoy was trying to explain. So yeah, you need to learn a little bit of terminology (try the Synthesizers.com page?) but otherwise the theory is the same. More inputs and outputs, more controls, more control. However, modulars are usually designed to need a special power supply; if you don't know anything about electronics, then you'l need to fork over usually $3-500 just to get started with a case and power, before buying any modules. Semi-modulars are great for avoiding this and can teach you a lot, and usually sound great, but if you're a really wild pedals-player then you might feel a bit handcuffed, as I'm not aware of any cheap, manufactured semi-modulars that get particularly wild or brutal...
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Pockets McCoy
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Post by Pockets McCoy » Mon Jul 05, 2010 1:33 pm

Then again, with anything modular you can kind of make anything sound insane and brutal. I mean, there are wilder things than others, but even with a pre-laid-out semi-modular you can easily get into voltage controlled audio rate modulations, which can vary from subtly beautiful textures or overbearingly complex and abrasive clouds of sonic violence. Also, voltage control in general...no longer limited to only being able to tweak 2 knobs at any given time.



In my experience teaching modular concepts to people used to working with mixer/pedal loops, the biggest hurdle to get over is that it's no longer a straight chain/loop. Here's a good example:

For a complex sound being rhythmically gated in a mixer/pedal loop situation, the way to achieve this is with a tremolo pedal at the end of the chain.

In modular land, it's:

output of the complex sound you've created -->VCA (amp. knob full CCW)
squarewave LFO --> VCA amplitude cv in

People used to loops, when presented with the task of doing something like that on a modular, almost always try this after having had the function of each module described to them:

output of the complex sound you've created --> VCA --> some LFO input
or
output of the complex sound you've created --> some LFO input --> VCA

Just a matter of getting accustomed to not-strictly-linear patching, i.e. the VCA needing a CV connection from an LFO instead of having a "speed" knob on the VCA itself and no options for control other than a pre-wired LFO.

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Post by felixer » Mon Jul 05, 2010 2:47 pm

Hi5 wrote:no-output is the future.
rofwl :lolsign:
never tried the 'no-input' method myself. in fear i might blow something up :hihi:
but methinks the analogy between that and a 'real' osc is like coming to the same point from different sides: trying to gain more control vs trying to mess it up ....
igormpc: enjoy your new modular! and keep doing what YOU think is right :tu:
don't need midi, don't need keys, just want knobs and cables (all together now ;-)

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Post by jnumberg » Mon Jul 05, 2010 3:32 pm

Thanks again for the replies! Everyone on this board has been amazingly helpful and nice, the internet is not used to this.

So maybe start with an evolver?

I was thinking a little more all out 8_) like something based around the stilton and evin, so I can ease my way into modular from pedal/mixer stuff..

Yeah all this CViery is a little confusing...Thanks Pockets, that makes a lot more sense, so it's kind of like difference between serial, mixer, and parallel, cv, loops. No-input stuff has always made me want to be an octopus, so I think i could really benefit from cv.

Lately, I've added an mbase01 w/ overdrive pedal going to the trigger in. Since everything's interacting, I can use a delay (hiwatt tape echo) feedback loop on a separate line in to change rhythms pattern while the overdrive volume controls the rate of the beat. So it is sort of a parallel control system, though not really.... :despair:

I've found that I always need a minimal input in a no-input, the mbase or sampler (mpc500), certain hits will make the static delay and feedback lines modulate or jump from one static tone to another, thus creating simple, unpredictable melodies. I'd like to share this stuff others; I'm working on uploading a little something. Edit Uploaded clip to tumblr, not sure how to get it in the message board...mbase01 with feedback and delay

Thanks again for all your amazing help, best message board ever! I have so much to learn, good thing I'm unemployed!

:hail:

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Post by slovo » Mon Jul 05, 2010 6:19 pm

Pockets McCoy wrote:Then again, with anything modular you can kind of make anything sound insane and brutal. I mean, there are wilder things than others, but even with a pre-laid-out semi-modular you can easily get into voltage controlled audio rate modulations, which can vary from subtly beautiful textures or overbearingly complex and abrasive clouds of sonic violence.
Yeah, now that I think, you're probably right, I don't have a lot of experience with semi-modulars, but it would stand to reason, simply being able to patch audio rate into anything is going to make for some pretty crazy sounds.
jnumberg wrote:So maybe start with an evolver?
Wow, it will really depend on a LOT of factors, but this is something I would not really recommend in this case. The Evolver is a pretty capable sort of a VA synth, so I guess in that sense it would teach you about subtractive synthesis, but it's not CV-accessible at all. It's a MIDI synth. We're going old school here. ;) I think you should read a little more and also maybe check out the analoguehaven.com website for things like the Spectral Neptune, Mars, MFB Kraftzwerg, Doepfer Dark Energy, Vermona PerFourMer, any of the many ASol semi-modulars, or, is the Oberheim re-issue SEM available? These synths, just off the top of my head, I debated getting before I went modular. In the end I decided to just take the plunge and get into 5U. But these were serious candidates because they all pack a lot of capability in a small and comparatively cheap package. They are also all legitimately modular-friendly, and won't be a waste of your money if you go all in. Which one is best is for you to decide. You need to think about your ideas for sounds, and try some Youtube demos, there are a pretty good number of them, and, well, they are not all cheap. In fact they are almost all more expensive than an Evolver...
jnumberg wrote:Yeah all this CViery is a little confusing...Thanks Pockets, that makes a lot more sense, so it's kind of like difference between serial, mixer, and parallel, cv, loops. No-input stuff has always made me want to be an octopus, so I think i could really benefit from cv.
I think you're catching on, but honestly, I wouldn't stress too much about it being too complicated. You must be pretty committed if you're willing to do what you've already gotten done. I think modulars will be confusing at times, but still always provide you with plenty of cool options. Even when I buy the "wrong" pieces, I still have plenty to do with them, since I am still a noob, I can't really be all that disappointed! The big question will be your budget. Not to scare you off, but to give you an idea, if spending $2000 sounds like an ok place to start, then you might just want to jump in with both feet. You can get some use out of a $1000 system, but you'll have to plan hard, and not expect too much -- possibly half of that cash will go to the case and power supply. So, yeah, for $300-1000 you can get a pretty bitchin semi-modular (especially used!!), or if you have lots of cash burning a hole in your pocket, welcome to the no-pockets club (Mr. McCoy excepted)! :drunkbanana:
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Post by felixer » Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:26 am

cheapest way to get started with a modular is prob the doepfer a-100MC mini/beauty/lunchbox case: gives you four slots for modules. eurorack has a wide range of manufacturers making lots of very different stuff. starting off with maybe a filter, lfo and vca to reduce the 'octopus feeling' (i know exactly what you mean ;-) ....
and don't be fooled into thinking that you must/should get the expensive modules to get good results. quite often it's not better, just different ....
getting into midi stuff is nice and has some 'instant gratification' but in the long run i think you will get stuck again. midi was designed to couple keyboards and is ok at that but for wilder things it's simply to slow. even internally a lot of digital synths run out of gas if you go crazy .... nice thing about analog is that it's 'instantanious' and you can have an unlimited amount of modulation going on at any speed .... it feels very 'direct'. which is, i think, what you are used to with the feedback things you're doing now.
but as always: ymmv :nod: take your time to research and maybe try things out at some local wiggler?
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Post by FearKonstruktor » Wed Jul 07, 2010 12:39 am

Recently i had some recordings with no-input mixer and my pedalboard too.

[video][/video]

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