Power distribution - updated

Moog, Synthesizers.com, MOTM, Modcan, Moon and others..... Go big!

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JohnLRice

Post by JohnLRice » Sun Jan 29, 2017 6:50 pm

sonicwarrior wrote:=> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sense_(electronics)
Many power supplies that are equipped with remote sense can cause catastrophic damage to the loads if they turned on while the sense leads are unconnected.
Either that is only for high power supplies/heavy loads, or when the load is very far away from the supply, or an over exagerated/inaccurate statement, or I've just been very lucky all these years? :hihi: :eek: :nuke: :flamed:

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Post by johny_gtr » Mon Jan 30, 2017 3:09 am

Thank you sonicwarrior and JohnLRice!

About long connectors between PSU and supplied modules. I want to share this PSU for two 8U cases. It will be only 9 modules at maximum (8U sequencer in the first case, and some modules in the second). I hope that half meter cables will not effect on voltage drop.

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Post by DickyKnee » Tue Jan 31, 2017 9:43 am

JohnLRice wrote:
sonicwarrior wrote:=> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sense_(electronics)
Many power supplies that are equipped with remote sense can cause catastrophic damage to the loads if they turned on while the sense leads are unconnected.
Either that is only for high power supplies/heavy loads, or when the load is very far away from the supply, or an over exagerated/inaccurate statement, or I've just been very lucky all these years? :hihi: :eek: :nuke: :flamed:
there is a resistor between the output and sense lines on both rails, so the sense lines see the rail voltage if left disconnected. when connected, they are in parallel to the sense lines and are basically shorted out of the circuit.

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Post by Eric the Red » Mon Feb 20, 2017 12:15 pm

I almost have my first batch of modules built - I am designing the panels / building a rack in the next few weeks.

One area of this puzzle that I have not yet figured out is power. I currently have 2xbox 11's with their own power supply, and I am going to fill that up with dotcom modules, so no issues there.

For my DIY rack, I am completely lost on what to do. Probably 90% of my system will by MOTM and the power options for this seem limited / DIY / confusing.

Option 1: it seems the Dotcom system would be the easiest to get started with - but is it possible to connect a distribution board to it? Like the one from Suit and Tie guy?

Option 2: Oakley power supply / dizzy distorted boards. From what it looks like, I can either make a 3U panel to mount this to the front of my case, or mount it to a panel in the back of the case - both pictures are shown on the Oakley site. From there, I build 2-Dizzy boards and buy a Yamaha power cord. Is there a place I can buy these pre-built? I am fairly new to DIY and do not have much experience with electricity, but the build looks very straight forward.

Option 3: the new Corsynth C100 power system - I can't find much information on it besides this post - viewtopic.php?t=176661&highlight=
It looks like I can get the 2-3-4U Dotcom box, mount these in there to have a mini power plant - run the cable to my box where the distribution boards are, and have power!

Thank you for the help!!

-Eric

JohnLRice

Post by JohnLRice » Mon Feb 20, 2017 12:32 pm

DickyKnee wrote:
JohnLRice wrote:
sonicwarrior wrote:=> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sense_(electronics)
Many power supplies that are equipped with remote sense can cause catastrophic damage to the loads if they turned on while the sense leads are unconnected.
Either that is only for high power supplies/heavy loads, or when the load is very far away from the supply, or an over exagerated/inaccurate statement, or I've just been very lucky all these years? :hihi: :eek: :nuke: :flamed:
there is a resistor between the output and sense lines on both rails, so the sense lines see the rail voltage if left disconnected. when connected, they are in parallel to the sense lines and are basically shorted out of the circuit.
Awesome, thanks for the info, DickyKnee! :tu:

JohnLRice

Post by JohnLRice » Mon Feb 20, 2017 12:51 pm

Eric the Red wrote:Option 1: it seems the Dotcom system would be the easiest to get started with - but is it possible to connect a distribution board to it? Like the one from Suit and Tie guy?
Yes! STG, Sonic Warrior, Oakley/Krisp1 and Analog Craftsman etc make distro boards that could be attached to a DotCom power supply (with minimal DIY effort to do it right).

You can also still get a MOTM-960 distro board PCB from Synth Cube:
http://synthcube.com/cart/synthesis-tec ... ption=true

Analog Craftsman in the USA has nice little distro boards and complete power solutions, check 'em out!
http://analogcraftsman.com/?product=acbus
http://analogcraftsman.com/?product=acpwr
Eric the Red wrote:Option 2: OakleyI build 2-Dizzy boards and buy a Yamaha power cord. Is there a place I can buy these pre-built?
http://www.krisp1.com/store/index.php?m ... cts_id=111

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Post by Eric the Red » Mon Feb 20, 2017 1:17 pm

So for a Dotcom power system, I would need a:
-Q101/102 - as part of my user interface to the power system - on/off switch and plugging it into the wall

-A QPS1/3 - depending on how many modules I want to power, either up 66 or up 110

-QDH20 - this is what I would modify to plug into distribution boards

-from ABC supplier - a distribution board of my choosing.

So, when it is all set up, I would do:
Q101 -->Q102 --> QPS1/3 --> QDH20 --> Distro Board --> Modules

Thanks again!

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Post by sonicwarrior » Mon Feb 20, 2017 1:22 pm

My batch is sold out but I can publish the Sprint Layout file if someone wants to make their own batch.
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For sale: Jürgen Haible Tau Phaser (MOTM format)

JohnLRice

Post by JohnLRice » Mon Feb 20, 2017 3:11 pm

Eric the Red wrote:So, when it is all set up, I would do:
Q101 -->Q102 --> QPS1/3 --> QDH20 --> Distro Board --> Modules
I don't have a lot of experience with the power components Synthesizers.com sells but I think you could also do:

Q137 --> QPS1/3 --> Distro Board --> power cables -->Modules

Now for your cables to connect the power supply to the distro board and for the cables to connect the modules to the distro board you could buy a QDH20 or QDH40 and chop it up and modify the parts. This would save you some research and assembly time. Just chop the QDH20 or QDH40 off at the nuts :eek: (wire nuts that is :hihi: ) and then connect the wires from the large Molex connector to the distro board input and attach MTA connectors to the ends of the power cables.

Or you could just cut of the Molex connector coming from the QPS1 or QPS3 and attach those wires to the distro board and then make your own power cables from scratch or buy them already made?
http://analogcraftsman.com/?product=accable
http://www.stgsoundlabs.com/products/power_cable_mu.htm
http://www.groveaudio.com/beta/pcs8_mu.html
etc

I also forgot to mention in my previous post that Grove Audio also sells distro boards and power supplies:
http://www.groveaudio.com/beta/product_subindex7.html

And you should take a look at highly engineered offerings from Hinton Instruments: http://hinton-instruments.co.uk/paprod/psu/

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Post by Eric the Red » Mon Feb 20, 2017 4:17 pm

Thanks for all the help today John! I think I am going to go the Dotcom approach or Grove audio. From a cost / module approach, these seem to be the most efficient.

-Eric

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Cyndustries Major power supply

Post by groovar » Sat Apr 01, 2017 2:43 am

Again my power supply both lights come on, but when I connect to the. Negative cable on the cables leading to the distribution board, the negative led goes out and. Nothing

Everything seems to be connected properly any suggestions?

JohnLRice

Re: Cyndustries Major power supply

Post by JohnLRice » Sat Apr 01, 2017 4:02 am

groovar wrote:Again my power supply both lights come on, but when I connect to the. Negative cable on the cables leading to the distribution board, the negative led goes out and. Nothing

Everything seems to be connected properly any suggestions?
Can you post some clear pictures of your power supply, distribution board and how it's connected? Also the brands and models of the power supply and distribution board. Without more information the best I could do would be to make wild guesses and you might make things worse by following my suggestions! 8-)

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Post by wackelpeter » Mon Apr 17, 2017 3:46 am

Would first take a multimeter and measure the resistance from the distro-board between negative rail and ground. Seems like a short or too much current drawing that shut your negative rail down. Depending on how much modules you have connected there and what their individual resistance between gnd and + or - rail is the resistance would differm, but shouldn't be too low (perhaps less than 2-3kohms maybe). Or you would measure the resistance between gnd and - for each module connected separately. Normal is something between 10k and infinitely (this depends for example on how many pots are connected between the power rails, like cutoff for VCF or Ptich for VCO, and the values of the pots itself.

Then connect those looking okay from their resistance step by step and power up again each time until you found the culprit.

Otherwise it could be that all your modules are simply too much for your PSU and draw too much current.
Then it would be best to measure the current consumption when the negative rail is still on and compare it with your PSU Ratings...
Therefore you might also disconnect some of your modules and do the same step by step procedure until it goes down and then measure the current with the last working number of modules...

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Post by groovar » Tue Apr 18, 2017 9:38 am

So here is the update:
I removed every tail one by one from the distribution block until i was able to identify the troubled combo / distro cards.

One card had a bad diode that we were able to test with the multimeter. i removed it and replaced it. good to go all green.

The other card had a SINGLE wire wandering out of the card on the + side and must have been touching the ground. I removed and re-spun and re-inserted and all good all green.

This was very tedious and time consuming but this system is now fully operational. Thank you for your assistance.
Last edited by groovar on Tue Apr 18, 2017 10:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

JohnLRice

Post by JohnLRice » Tue Apr 18, 2017 9:54 am

groovar wrote:So here is the update:
I removed every tail one by one from the distribution block until i was able to identify the troubled combo / distro cards.

One card had a bad diode that we were able to test with the multimeter. i removed it and replaced it. good to go all green.

The other card had a SINGLE wire wandering out of the card and must have been touching the ground. I removed and re-spun and re-inserted and all good all green.

This was very tedious and time consuming but this system is now fully operational. Thank you for your assistance.
Good job! :tu: :party:

JohnLRice

Post by JohnLRice » Fri May 26, 2017 6:58 pm

Here's a another update of sonicwarrior's excellent comparison chart. In trying to make a COTK to Mos-Lab adapter cable I've realized that Mos-Lab has the same reverse/flip orientation difference between module and buss board pinouts similar to what COTK does.

Somebody please correct me ASAP if I'm wrong about this! :mrgreen: :omg: :eurosmoke:

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Post by poorness » Thu Jul 06, 2017 1:05 pm

Hey guys. I started into modular about 1.5 years ago with Eurorack. After playing with some 5U gear at Knobcon 2016 and really thinking about it, I'm strongly considering pickup up a 5U box. Obviously though, the power situation is not as easy as Eurorack.

The modules I've been looking at have mostly been Dotcom, STG, Moon, and Corsynth. I believe Moon and Dotcom will use the same power, but I think Corsynth is different. I'm trying to figure out what power supply would be best. From what I've been reading, Analog Craftsman seems to be good for multi-brand systems, but this is all new to me.

This thread has been very helpful, but is there a power solution you guys would recommend for these manufacturers (or the appropriate adapters)? Again, I'm not committed yet to 5U just yet... but trying to figure out what I'm getting into and get some advice from the seasoned 5U guys. Thanks.
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Post by ach_gott » Thu Jul 06, 2017 1:32 pm

poorness wrote:The modules I've been looking at have mostly been Dotcom, STG, Moon, and Corsynth. I believe Moon and Dotcom will use the same power, but I think Corsynth is different.
Corsynth is the same as .com as are all of the manufacturers you've listed:
http://corsynth.com/home/modules/c100

Of the MU manufacturers, I believe only Curetronic deviates, though they offer adapters:
http://curetronic.com/product/power-supply-kit/

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Post by poorness » Thu Jul 06, 2017 1:50 pm

Thanks ach_gott. I wasn't sure about that.
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Post by JohnLRice » Thu Jul 06, 2017 4:42 pm

ach_gott wrote:
poorness wrote:The modules I've been looking at have mostly been Dotcom, STG, Moon, and Corsynth. I believe Moon and Dotcom will use the same power, but I think Corsynth is different.
Corsynth is the same as .com as are all of the manufacturers you've listed:
http://corsynth.com/home/modules/c100

Of the MU manufacturers, I believe only Curetronic deviates, though they offer adapters:
http://curetronic.com/product/power-supply-kit/
A majority of all 5U manufacturers modules run on +-15v and use a DotCom style 6 pin MTA-100 power connector. Some other exceptionsL

Most Mos-Lab modules run on +-12v and use a 10 pin connector but there are adapter boards available to convert +-15v to +-12v.

The default voltage for COTK is +-12v and they use a 14 pin connector but most modules can be ordered to run on +-15v and have a 6 pin DotCom connector. Be very specific when ordering new and be careful when buying used.

As ach_gott already mentioned, Curetronic modules run on +-15v but on a 10 pin connector so just an adapter cable is needed when youing a DotCom supply.

Vintage Moog modules and I guess the reissues may have a thirst for +-12v, or +12v and -6v . . .maybe even +10v?

It's rare to need a +5v rail but some modules expect it, in particular some Synthesizers.com modules.

In case you aren't aware, 5U is generally divided into two sub categories because of panel width and mounting hole differences:
Moog style, which is often referenced as "Moog Unit" or MU for short (coined by Mr. Suit and Tie Guy!) or often as DotCom etc.
MOTM is the other sub format, created by Paul at Synthesis Technology and includes Modcan B.
If you want simplicity with your cases, pick one or the other and don't try to mix them.

If you want to have the easiest setup, just buy a ready made power supply and distribution system that uses DotCom standard connectors and supplies +15v, -15v and +5v. Off the top of my head some companies that offer complete power solutions that will work with a majority of MU modules without modificatiopn are:
https://www.synthesizers.com/power.html
http://analogcraftsman.com/?product_cat=power
http://www.groveaudio.com/beta/product_subindex7.html
http://corsynth.com/home/modules/c100

Have fun! :cloud:

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Post by poorness » Thu Jul 06, 2017 5:24 pm

Thanks JohnLRice. Great explanation. It really is similar to Eurorack power (just a larger voltage swing) as long as you stay MU. I had read about people mixing Modcan with Dotcom and I guess that's where the confusion came in. Then I saw the COTK stuff and really got confused. That all makes sense now though.
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Post by poorness » Wed Jul 19, 2017 3:32 pm

Quick question... after doing some research, I really like the Corsynth power solution... but I can't find anywhere in the US that sells it. Noisebug sells some of their modules, but they don't seem to sell the power components. Anybody know of a US retailer?
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Post by Thalassa » Fri Jul 21, 2017 12:04 pm

poorness wrote:Quick question... after doing some research, I really like the Corsynth power solution... but I can't find anywhere in the US that sells it. Noisebug sells some of their modules, but they don't seem to sell the power components. Anybody know of a US retailer?
Hi poorness , the c100 power system and the c109 attenuator multiples are the only modules that noisebug is not distributing at this moment. Both modules have a really low profit margin making impossible to sell them with distributors. You can buy them only directly from our online shop.

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Post by poorness » Fri Jul 21, 2017 12:54 pm

Straight from the boss. I love Muffs! :tu:

One more question... the online shop says it comes with the module, power brick, DC converter, bus board, and cables... how many cables? And can I buy more? Thanks again for the detailed answer.
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Post by Thalassa » Sat Jul 22, 2017 2:40 am

poorness wrote:Straight from the boss. I love Muffs! :tu:

One more question... the online shop says it comes with the module, power brick, DC converter, bus board, and cables... how many cables? And can I buy more? Thanks again for the detailed answer.
The power distribution board has 24 power connectors so the system comes with 24 cables of different lenghts. If you want more there is no problem but you wilk need to send me an email with the amount of cables and lenghts. :)

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