5U LFOs with potential for BPM sync?

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PrimateSynthesis
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Post by PrimateSynthesis » Fri Jun 16, 2017 3:08 pm

sduck wrote:The MOTM 320 LFO has a sync in that would work. Although it's general unavailability would probably make it a poor choice for you...
As you know, the MOTM-320 sync input works the same way as a sync input on a VCO. It doesn't sync the LFO rate to clock. I think what the OP wants is an LFO that syncs to clock in the way that LFO's in modern synths and effects sync to tap tempo or MIDI clock, such that the period of the LFO is determined by a number of beats (ie. some division of the clock).
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Post by daveholiday » Fri Jun 16, 2017 3:20 pm

PrimateSynthesis wrote:
sduck wrote:The MOTM 320 LFO has a sync in that would work. Although it's general unavailability would probably make it a poor choice for you...
As you know, the MOTM-320 sync input works the same way as a sync input on a VCO. It doesn't sync the LFO rate to clock. I think what the OP wants is an LFO that syncs to clock in the way that LFO's in modern synths and effects sync to tap tempo or MIDI clock, such that the period of the LFO is determined by a number of beats (ie. some division of the clock).
That was what I was originally asking about but have come to the conclusion that, with what I have, The easiest solution will be a clock source, divider, and manually adjusting the rates of each LFO to suit the particular patch. I know that it wont be perfect...as in the case of my PRO 2 LFO being perfectly synced to BPM. But the more I think about it, having an LFO resetting at quarter notes, with another LFO slightly modulating the rate of the first at half notes might provide some cool rhythmical goodness!!

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Post by daveholiday » Fri Jun 16, 2017 3:22 pm

I have been looking at the Moon M553 and M554 combo but there has been some concern about the clock timing on the M554....will be glad when the search function is back up!!

JohnLRice

Post by JohnLRice » Fri Jun 16, 2017 3:50 pm

daveholiday wrote:I have been looking at the Moon M553 and M554 combo but there has been some concern about the clock timing on the M554....will be glad when the search function is back up!!
The M553 is a great module for converting MIDI clock to analog gates but you only get two clock outputs, one fixed and one selectable. So, if you are starting from MIDI and need the clocks from it good! :tu:

Either way you'll probably want a multi output divider I'll assume?

The M554 is very powerful and versatile but the somewhat early copy I have has a really strange bug with divider #6. When it "flips out" it not only affects itslf but ALL other channels two! :hmm: :despair: Very weird! :eek: My work around is to not use channel 6 at all and to plug an open or shorting plug into its input so it doesn't get the normall'd pass through either. The other thing about it is that it is a bit confusing since it is 8 independent dividers that are normal'd in a series+parallel configuration and if you change a setting on the fly for one channel it might not be in sync with certain other channels unless you pass in a reset gate to reset all channels. If you want to actively "play" the different divisions I recommend getting a switch like the M591 or similar and to get the divisions setup that you want to use and pass them to the switch etc.

For a simpler divider maybe consider:

STG Integer Dividers
http://www.stgsoundlabs.com/products/in ... ers_mu.htm

COTK C963 Clock Divider (long discontinued though)

Or maybe go with a trigger sequencer since they make great clock dividers? If you have 4 MU of space the Moon M563 is pretty sweet . . . and there might be one in the buy and sell section for a good price?! :party:
http://www.lunar-experience.com/assets/ ... /563v2.pdf

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Post by bwhittington » Fri Jun 16, 2017 5:16 pm

daveholiday wrote:But the more I think about it, having an LFO resetting at quarter notes, with another LFO slightly modulating the rate of the first at half notes might provide some cool rhythmical goodness!!
Not what you were originally asking about, but very, very true!
JohnLRice wrote: Or maybe go with a trigger sequencer since they make great clock dividers? If you have 4 MU of space the Moon M563 is pretty sweet . . . and there might be one in the buy and sell section for a good price?! :party:
If the conversation is moving on to dividers, the 563 is probably not the popular choice, but it is still my favorite for this purpose. I have two with their expanders, which is kind of overkill, but I prefer it to other dividers for the tactile switches, reliable output, and in general the fun, visual way of constructing divisions (as well as irregularities if you want), not to mention regular ol' trigger sequencer duties. I have the 554 and the Integer Divider as well, and they are useful, too. Didn't care for Gate Math so much in the end. But maybe I just go for the 563 first because it is so big and easy to find among the other modules. :hihi:

My 553 has been solid. A nice choice for midi sync. Though if you have a Dotcom Q118, you can do much the same thing by sending it a click track and using its gate output as your clock. A little more to set up, but cheaper.

The 554 has its issues, but the good news is that you can generally work around them, and when they are listed for sale, they are usually dirt cheap!

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Post by daveholiday » Fri Jun 16, 2017 6:24 pm

The more I wrap my head around this, it seems that I might not need any additional modules what so ever.

I have at my disposal 12 CV and 12 Gate channels controlled via midi. (my 3 Syntecno TeeBees). What, specifically, is the difference between a gate, clock, and/or trigger? It seems that I could just sequence gates via MIDI at the appropriate time signature...right?

I understand I will be losing the "on the fly" improvisation of a knob based clock divider, but I started making music in the DAW/MIDI world so I will manage!

Any thoughts?

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Post by Dave Peck » Fri Jun 16, 2017 6:33 pm

A trigger is a brief, momentary voltage pulse.

A gate is similar, but it stays 'on' for some substantial amount of time.

It's like the difference between an LFO with an extremely narrow pulse waveform and an LFO with a 50% 'on' / 50% 'off' square waveform.

A clock is a continuously running series of either gates or triggers and it is usually used to provide electronic 'tempo' info / signals to various other bits of gear like envelope generators and syncable LFOs.

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Post by daveholiday » Fri Jun 16, 2017 6:42 pm

Dave Peck wrote:A trigger is a brief, momentary voltage pulse.

A gate is similar, but it stays 'on' for some substantial amount of time.

It's like the difference between an LFO with an extremely narrow pulse waveform and an LFO with a 50% 'on' / 50% 'off' square waveform.

A clock is a continuously running series of either gates or triggers and it is usually used to provide electronic 'tempo' info / signals to various other bits of gear like envelope generators and syncable LFOs.
So if I sequence notes/gates via midi with very, very short duration it seems I will have triggers. When I have a bunch of those notes in a fixed time signature that repeats...I will have a clock signal?

I understand that a gate in the midi/CV world is based off note on/off data...just curious if there in an ideal time for a trigger pulse.
Last edited by daveholiday on Fri Jun 16, 2017 6:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Dave Peck
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Post by Dave Peck » Fri Jun 16, 2017 6:43 pm

Yep.

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Post by daveholiday » Fri Jun 16, 2017 6:45 pm

Thanks Dave!

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Post by Dave Peck » Fri Jun 16, 2017 6:58 pm

The main drawback to doing it this way is that your 'clock' only runs while the DAW track is in playback or record. A dedicated clock device keeps running regardless of whether the DAW track is running or stopped.

Not much of an issue if you are primarily going to be recording, but it would likely be a deal breaker for a lot of live performance setups.

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Post by Ranxerox » Fri Jun 16, 2017 8:07 pm

daveholiday wrote:
Dave Peck wrote:A trigger is a brief, momentary voltage pulse.

A gate is similar, but it stays 'on' for some substantial amount of time.

It's like the difference between an LFO with an extremely narrow pulse waveform and an LFO with a 50% 'on' / 50% 'off' square waveform.

A clock is a continuously running series of either gates or triggers and it is usually used to provide electronic 'tempo' info / signals to various other bits of gear like envelope generators and syncable LFOs.
So if I sequence notes/gates via midi with very, very short duration it seems I will have triggers. When I have a bunch of those notes in a fixed time signature that repeats...I will have a clock signal?

I understand that a gate in the midi/CV world is based off note on/off data...just curious if there in an ideal time for a trigger pulse.
My understanding is that in the case of a trig, the receiving circuit only 'pays attention' to the rising edge of the signal, so the duration doesn't really matter. Manufacturers tend to keep trig signals short in the 'high' state so as to avoid problems with overlapping trigs at high frequencies.

Conversely a gate signal is comprised of two pieces of information - the rising edge 'on' signal, and the 'off' falling signal.

Course I could be wrong about this - please correct me...

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Post by Paradigm X » Sat Jun 17, 2017 2:44 am

If helpful, i have attached a wav sample of a trigger i found somewhere on here which i use to sync things to midi - the mpc 1000 sends out the sample on 16th notes (or as i choose) and these are 'interpreted' as triggers. very useful if you have a sampler or a daw

cheers
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Post by PrimateSynthesis » Sat Jun 17, 2017 12:16 pm

daveholiday wrote: That was what I was originally asking about but have come to the conclusion that, with what I have, The easiest solution will be a clock source, divider, and manually adjusting the rates of each LFO to suit the particular patch. I know that it wont be perfect...as in the case of my PRO 2 LFO being perfectly synced to BPM.
Your original assumption that this is not possible without some "digital trickery" is largely correct. However, one way to get that timing is to use a step sequencer with a lag processor. You "draw" the LFO with the voltage levels of each step, then smooth out the jumps between them with a lag processor. The results aren't perfect, but since the step sequencer is driven by the clock, the imperfect results happen at a rate determined by that clock.
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Post by daveholiday » Tue Nov 12, 2019 3:36 pm

Digging up the thread since I have a tremendous need for beat synced LFOs with my current acquisitions from Dove Audio. So the beauty of my current set up while playing with the WTF oscillator is to send a CV note track and 3 synced LFOs from my DSI PRO 2. The results are very pleasing to my ears and there is much variation to be had by modifying the rate of each of the LFOs.

I have a hybrid set-up MIDI/DAW/Encore Expressionist so I have a healthy supply of "clock signals" via the computer->Expressionist......

Shit, let me back up for a second....it seems that the Expressionist has 4 built in BPM synced LFOs.....I'll research that after this post.

So my question....Yes, there was one in all this rambling. The Electric Druid TTLFO chip has been used in many offerings. FCUK has the Waverunner based on this chip with modified code. Has anyone had experience with this chip? As the most important question, how "good" or accurate is the sync when clocking it?

The more I think about it, this is probably a silly question as any "sloppiness" in the timing is probably not even detectable in the context of a musical sequence.

Anyhooo....any thoughts about the TTLFO chip or the Waverunner?
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Post by josaka » Tue Nov 12, 2019 4:27 pm

waverunner is mucho fun.. using it last night.. outputs clock and lfo.. and has clock multiplying.. so.. should be perfek for your thing.

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Post by XXXEsq » Tue Nov 12, 2019 4:37 pm

daveholiday wrote: Shit, let me back up for a second....it seems that the Expressionist has 4 built in BPM synced LFOs.....
The Expressionist is your friend! I have one and it's probably the single most used piece of gear in my studio as I'm all about driving my synths (and syncing my sequencers and drum machines) from my DAW.

You can use the internal LFOs as mod sources (and control the intensity with a programmable midi CC) as well as setting them to a pulse and using them to sync (restart) external oscillators which can be set at low range and used as other synced LFOs. In addition, you can output clock from the Expressionist at various tempo synced divisions and those clocks can be used to step sequencers and to sync external LFOs.

I often use the clock outs (multed) to a DotCom GateMath to make rhythmically interesting related sequence timings.

Don't know what I'd do without the Expressionist. It's an amazing piece of gear and I'm amazed they aren't more popular.
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Post by suitandtieguy » Tue Nov 12, 2019 11:03 pm

STG Soundlabs' Envelope Generator has two looping modes and you can set the timescale to BPM-derived values (skip, 32nd, 16th, 4, 2, 1, double whole; per stage) via the sync bus, which is essentially DIN sync or "Sync 24".

it is the best tempo sync LFO you can get!
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Post by daveholiday » Wed Nov 13, 2019 9:10 am

suitandtieguy wrote:STG Soundlabs' Envelope Generator has two looping modes and you can set the timescale to BPM-derived values (skip, 32nd, 16th, 4, 2, 1, double whole; per stage) via the sync bus, which is essentially DIN sync or "Sync 24".

it is the best tempo sync LFO you can get!
No bias in that recommendation.... :hihi:

I will definitely check it out!
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Post by josaka » Wed Nov 13, 2019 9:11 am

suitandtieguy wrote:STG Soundlabs' Envelope Generator has two looping modes and you can set the timescale to BPM-derived values (skip, 32nd, 16th, 4, 2, 1, double whole; per stage) via the sync bus, which is essentially DIN sync or "Sync 24".

it is the best tempo sync LFO you can get!
ha.. never read the manual.. was wondering what that sync was :) :deadbanana: :tu:

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Post by kindredlost » Thu Nov 14, 2019 7:31 am

If you also have the sidecar module for the STG EG then you can use a cv into T3 to control the timing while in LFO B mode. I use a sequencer for cv into it. When setting the sequencer to a clock division of the same sync bus timing it is quite musical.

One thing which I haven’t figured out a solution to is keeping more than one of them in phase while wiggling the T3 knob. They are always in sync but get out of phase with each other at times. I’ll make a video demo to show this if I get time tonight.

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Post by daveholiday » Thu Nov 14, 2019 9:28 am

kindredlost wrote:If you also have the sidecar module for the STG EG then you can use a cv into T3 to control the timing while in LFO B mode. I use a sequencer for cv into it. When setting the sequencer to a clock division of the same sync bus timing it is quite musical.

One thing which I haven’t figured out a solution to is keeping more than one of them in phase while wiggling the T3 knob. They are always in sync but get out of phase with each other at times. I’ll make a video demo to show this if I get time tonight.
I did a bit of research on the STG EG and it really does have a ton of features. But, one of the selling points for me on the FCUK Wave Runner is that I can DIY one for about $90 bucks and a couple hours with the soldering iron. Seems like a lot of "bang for the buck"!
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Post by josaka » Thu Nov 14, 2019 5:08 pm

is there a video of how the stg env should behave in sync mode ?

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STG Envelope Generator in SYNC Mode

Post by kindredlost » Fri Nov 15, 2019 6:58 am

The STG Soundlabs Envelope Generator in SYNC mode LFO A. Actually two of them with sidecars.

Both outputs on each EG are used. Output A is for the amplitude VCA and Output B is to the filters.

This is using both of them with a pair of Q960 sequencers to voltage control the T3 stage and pitch voltage to the oscillators. The sync bus is also driving the Time Divider which is clocking the Q960's.

Additionally I ran the output of T3 via the Sidecar modules into the shift input of the Voltage Mini Stores.

I'm certain you will hear the slight phase change after I start tweaking the T3 knob on one of them. It all remains in sync but there is a period shift between the beat due to landing back in a slower sync from a faster sync. Like going from 1/32 notes to 1/8 notes. I end up in between the beat on one of them. Not a bad thing but definitely hard to master returning to a specific point predictably. The step sequencer has no problem doing this because of the sync bus clock.

Also notice the VMS's are double stepping or skipping steps which may be due to the gate coming from the T3 stage of the EG. It is very cool but again not exactly predicable.


[video][/video]

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Post by josaka » Fri Nov 15, 2019 10:25 am

you need the sidecar for sync mode..?

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