New Moon 543 CP Output Mixer Module

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robotmakers
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New Moon 543 CP Output Mixer Module

Post by robotmakers » Tue Feb 06, 2018 3:30 pm

The new Moon 543 CP output mixer arrived recently, its combination of functions proving extremely useful and interesting. The four channels of mixing are set up for stereo output, with pan and volume of each channel both manually and voltage controllable. Headphone output and an A440 tuning reference are also provided. Perfect for inclusion in portable or[/img] self contained instruments.

Cheers,
Roger

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JohnLRice

Post by JohnLRice » Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:31 pm

:love: :tu:

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Post by EPTC » Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:54 pm

Love that strict mute switch. Nice layout!
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Post by MrNezumi » Tue Feb 06, 2018 8:04 pm

Nice, Robotmakers! I can't wait to hear it used in a new tune by you. Well, OK, I'd listen to one of your new tunes w/o this module too - cuz I really like your tunes. :sb:

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Post by hsosdrum » Tue Feb 06, 2018 8:48 pm

I could use one of those. Too bad it's not also available in a full-MU height version.

JohnLRice

Post by JohnLRice » Tue Feb 06, 2018 8:52 pm

hsosdrum wrote:I could use one of those. Too bad it's not also available in a full-MU height version.
You should write to Gert and suggest it? :tu: I have a couple times before.

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Post by EPTC » Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:48 pm

You know what'd be a nice panel accessory, a simple attachable plate to extend a CP-sized module into a full size.

Couldn't that be done, sold in increments of one-space and wider? Just bracket over the screw hole of the top (and behind, to make a grip) of the CP-sized module?
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Post by JohnLRice » Wed Feb 07, 2018 12:25 am

EPTC wrote:You know what'd be a nice panel accessory, a simple attachable plate to extend a CP-sized module into a full size.

Couldn't that be done, sold in increments of one-space and wider? Just bracket over the screw hole of the top (and behind, to make a grip) of the CP-sized module?
It would probably work but designs would need to be tested to make sure there wasn't any flexing at the join point.

A simple plate done in Front Panel Express might work? This is a side view (proportions aren't necessarily correct), with the front top edge milled out so that the module sits flush and the back of the bottom edge milled out so it sits against the bottom rail correctly. Single MU adapters might not be stable enough? (although there aren't too many 1 MU CP panels to worry about . . .yet) I suppose a 1 MU and 2 MU would be all that is needed for any width CP panels and maybe it wouldn't hurt to have versions with mults in the empty space?
Image

And . . .then there is the difference in size and mounting holes between different manufacturer's CP panels that throws a wrench into this . . . . :ripbanana:

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Post by blt » Wed Feb 07, 2018 1:33 am

Couldn't there just be a full height alternate panel? Throw some mults or attenuators up top, no pcb redesign or extend-a-cp bracket needed. John, I'm holding you personally responsible to make Gert do this. This is my ideal MU output module, but I refused to be cut off at the knees via cp.

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Post by ranix » Wed Feb 07, 2018 1:46 am

I like the CP height panels, it is nice to be able to have a wide panel that is short in my rack. Two of my favorite and most used modules are the Moon 525m and 544

I've been thinking about DIYing a 6u 5u case (lol) to house 4 CP modules but that will need to wait for the next expansion

JohnLRice

Post by JohnLRice » Wed Feb 07, 2018 2:19 am

blt wrote:Couldn't there just be a full height alternate panel? Throw some mults or attenuators up top, no pcb redesign or extend-a-cp bracket needed. John, I'm holding you personally responsible to make Gert do this. This is my ideal MU output module, but I refused to be cut off at the knees via cp.
Yeah, a full height MU replacement panel would be a more solid option. :tu:

Don't hold your breath on a full height module though, I suggested it 3 years ago when the 543CP first appeared in the catalog! :despair: I occasionally suggest modifications and new designs to Gert, sometimes he even likes them and makes the modules :party: but . . .more often then not he doesn't! :hihi: :oops:

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Post by Sugarfree » Wed Feb 07, 2018 1:08 pm

If Gert ever decides to make a full height version, this would easily fit in a 3U panel.

A CP row would actually make sense in the middle of a cabinet. 1 or 2 above the bottom row -- a utility/mixing space.

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Post by EPTC » Wed Feb 07, 2018 4:51 pm

JohnLRice wrote: Image

And . . .then there is the difference in size and mounting holes between different manufacturer's CP panels that throws a wrench into this . . . . :ripbanana:
My golly, I love it!

Though to your second point, re: mounting holes, I'd disagree. I think a long horizontally wide open slot (instead of screw hole) could accommodate for this. And a simple lock nut on the other side could hold it in place so the screw wouldn't need to fit precisely.

Great point about getting these created one at a time through a vendor.
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JohnLRice

Post by JohnLRice » Wed Feb 07, 2018 5:13 pm

EPTC wrote:
JohnLRice wrote: Image

And . . .then there is the difference in size and mounting holes between different manufacturer's CP panels that throws a wrench into this . . . . :ripbanana:
My golly, I love it!

Though to your second point, re: mounting holes, I'd disagree. I think a long horizontally wide open slot (instead of screw hole) could accommodate for this. And a simple lock nut on the other side could hold it in place so the screw wouldn't need to fit precisely.
Thanks! But the problem isn't horizontal spacing differences, it's verical. COTK made their CP panels a little taller then everyone else! :doh: Take a read through this thread: viewtopic.php?t=120103

I can sort of see how this happened since I believe COTK were the first company to revive the CP format and maybe weren't concerned with people putting them in Moog cabinets and since COTK was the only company at the time making cabinets with CP rows . . . . Then when other companies decided to make CP modules they followed Moog specs and everyone was happy until one day someone tried to put a Moon CP panel in a COTK case and confusion/sadness ensued! :eek: :despair: :omg: :waah:

It's especially troubling since COTK has the biggest variety of interesting CP format modules.

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Post by hsosdrum » Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:44 pm

JohnLRice wrote:
hsosdrum wrote:I could use one of those. Too bad it's not also available in a full-MU height version.
You should write to Gert and suggest it? :tu: I have a couple times before.
Thanks for the suggestion, John, but I'll be needing an output module around the end of February — WAAAAAY before Gert could create one. So it looks like I'll be re-purposing my Dotcom Q113 8-ch mixer for output duties: Channels 1 – 4 will send/receive voices to/from the reverb module, and Channels 5 – 8 will receive the dry voices(s). Since the Q113 features a Channel 1 – 8 combined output I won't have to use another module to create a mono output, and if I want stereo I can use the channel 1 – 4 and channel 5 – 8 outputs separately. It'll be 2U of fun and games!

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Post by hsosdrum » Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:56 pm

I just re-read my post and realize that a Q113 can't send and receive from/to the same bank of 4 channels (feedback loop, anyone?). However, two Q114s will work, since I can configure each as one 3-channel mixer (for send) plus a single channel to receive and act as a master volume, since connecting to the #3 output separates channels 1 – 3 from channel 4. Looks like more $$ for Roger!

Edit: OK, I'm an idiot. I can indeed use the Q113 for output duties: Ch. 1 – 3 = voices sent to reverb via Ch. 1 – 4 output jack; Ch. 5 signal received from reverb; Ch. 6 & 7 = dry voices; Ch. 5 – 8 output jack = master output. No FB loop (except in my head).
Last edited by hsosdrum on Thu Feb 08, 2018 3:15 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by coyoteous » Thu Feb 08, 2018 12:27 am

I've thought about these issues a lot (both modular mixers and CP)... latter first: I think you'd need to extend the module flanges to get the stiffness you'd want/need for patching, making the adapter-plate notion a non-starter for me (thought experiment: cut your flanges at that point and I'll bet it flexes, buckles, fatigues, etc.).

If you were really 'all-in' on the concept, maybe welding, including the flanges? (aluminium hard to weld though, I think, right?)... or maybe the vendor would do the exact same layout for you in a run, but toward the top or bottom (or middle?) of a full-height panel? (maybe with jack-holes for mults, tie-lines, etc. in the extra space)

I ended up with 16 spaces of non-COTK CP between two Moon cases (all full now, though)... as seen on TV (not really) and mentioned in another thread: dotcom rack frame people can adapt a frame to CP by adding two holes (what to do with the extra space, unless you shorten the ears, etc. I'll leave you to mull on that one for yourself).

OK, didn't make it to mixers in a timely fashion other than to say: I dig 'em, but have really good ones outside the modulars... this one would be great with the voltage control as would be a big Moog mixer (whatever the number is) for its special sound (and stereo or busses/quad/tone respectively... otherwise, for me, I'm covered outside the cab).

Oh, one thing I do like about vintage moogy console business is the modules/panel (or 'strip' way back) being basically upside-down (jacks toward the top)... I've even inverted modules on the bottom row to simulate... it's kinda cool, though obviously weird/disorientating (ended up flipping them back... I could go on, on this theme, but won't).

Cool new Moonus Modularis, though!

Added: To the 5U death thread as to not bust a grand post-count tonight... Time Tunnel and UFO women are [insert metoo appropriate compliment here... he says on muffwiggler about to go to gearslutz] (need to find UFO).

More added: Or cut your CP flanges, use that as a template, drill holes in a full-height blank, reassemble with both panels leaving out lock washers? (switches, etc. might be a problem)

Even more added: guess you could make bigger holes in the mother/back panel where and if necessary.

Way even more added: make a cutout for the whole ding-dang thing, if possible.

The 'jumping the shark' home addition: I see a way to do it with just some 'outriggers' (backriggers?) and an adapter plate on modules not this big behind the panel (or flange-reinforcing strips/bars held with countersunk screws and an adapter plate on any... maybe?).
Shark, jumped.

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Post by Flareless » Thu Feb 08, 2018 9:03 am

Yusynth also has a voltage controlled panning mixer with headphone output which is MU format
Rich

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Post by BTG » Fri Jul 06, 2018 8:23 pm

Instead of starting a thread for the full size 543 I figure I'll just append to this one.

So...got mine today, and so far, pretty disappointed.

I'm getting massive bleed/noise. Not sure if it's just the headphones, but with everything shut down INCLUDING MUTES ENABLED, I get atonal noise, a lot of it, across both output channels (with headphones). I'll try with monitors tomorrow.

If I unplug signal inputs, it's quiet, so it's not internal self-noise, just something happening once I have a signal plugged in. This is with master volume down, headphone volume down, mutes enabled, and channel volume totally zeroed out.

JohnLRice

Post by JohnLRice » Fri Jul 06, 2018 8:50 pm

Aww no, that sucks! :sadbanana: At least for the panning issue, take a look on the back and see if there are some jumpers missing? I don't have one of those modules so I'm sorry I wont be much help.

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Post by BTG » Sat Jul 07, 2018 1:13 pm

OK, less tired today so I rvisited this today. The noise occurs with headphones or with the main outs, however it does go away if the main mute switch is enabled. It is definitely present irrespective of the volume, pan, and mute switch settings of each channel. It is present if any signal is coming into any of the inputs, but goes away if nothing is plugged in

Going to try to make a recording of this today.

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Post by BTG » Sat Jul 07, 2018 2:00 pm

Okay, here's a WAV file if someone wants to listen and just tell me I'm being WAY too picky. It's quieter than I remember, but since I was listening with headphones at high volume it seemed worse than it is. That said, still not sure it's acceptable to have that noise floor when muted and volume turned all the way down.

Muted/Volume Down: -72dB
Unmuted/Volume Down: -60dB
Full Volume: -6dB

TURN DOWN VOLUME BEFORE LISTENING!

https://www.dropbox.com/s/epha62rlkjq75aq/543.wav?dl=0

The first bit is with main volume zeroed and main mute switch enabled. This means there should be NO audio at all. You can hear and see that there is audio coming through, although very quiet.

You can clearly see the 12dB jump when I unmute the main output, but note that this is with volume still all the way turned down to zero.

I then turn the gain up until I hit max and get to about -6 to -3dB.

EDIT: As a point of comparison I took raw oscillator output and ran via mult into Corsynth Dual VCA and the 543. The Corsynth at 0 gain was around -75dB. So

Thoughts?

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Post by ualslosar » Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:26 am

Sorry you are having problems with your new Moon 543 Output Mixer. This module is a bit pricey to be having issues with.

- Have you e-mailed Gert at Moon Modular about the noise issue?

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Post by ranix » Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:05 pm

sounds bunk, I would return it for repair or refund. This seems similar to other problems I've had with Moon modules. Many of them misbehave in similar ways.

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Post by Dilibob » Fri Jul 13, 2018 3:55 pm

From the documentation I can’t figure out how the 543e works, the returns and sends just don’t make sense to my brain. Are the “send” mixed sends, even then the return/send seems confusing. Also I can’t figure out how multiple 543e work together. Is the 543e available, and has someone played with it? I btw would really like something with sends, but I’m not so convinced on “mixed” sends. Would be great to have a little video on using the 543e, some things my brain just doesn’t get it when I read it, I need to see how it’s working.

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