+15V gates for dotcom, cotk, moon possible?

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Klangzaun
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+15V gates for dotcom, cotk, moon possible?

Post by Klangzaun » Sun Feb 18, 2018 9:24 am

I can get a midi to cv/gate interface from a friend. Kenton pro 2

The gates come out with 0V (no gate) and +15V (gate on).

Can I fire gate ins with +15V in dotcom, cotk and moon modules?

Their modules give 0V / +5V gate usually. The gate ins work with thresholds of +1V usually.

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unrecordings
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Post by unrecordings » Sun Feb 18, 2018 11:45 am

Can you reset Kenton Pro 2 to output +5V gate ?
I know you can do this with a Pro Solo

JohnLRice

Post by JohnLRice » Sun Feb 18, 2018 12:56 pm

unrecordings wrote:Can you reset Kenton Pro 2 to output +5V gate ?
I know you can do this with a Pro Solo
I took a look at the PRO-2 manual there there is no mention of a +5 gate option, like there is in the PRO-2000 MKII manual.

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josaka
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Post by josaka » Sun Feb 18, 2018 3:30 pm

works fine with my modular.. I have 2.. tbf I haven't done any in depth testing..

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Post by Klangzaun » Sun Feb 18, 2018 5:45 pm

JohnLRice wrote:
unrecordings wrote:Can you reset Kenton Pro 2 to output +5V gate ?
I know you can do this with a Pro Solo
I took a look at the PRO-2 manual there there is no mention of a +5 gate option, like there is in the PRO-2000 MKII manual.
Thanks for rechecking this. I couldn't find it in the manual as well. Only 0 or +15V is written there.

Can I damage something using +15V? May I can give it a try via an attenuator...

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Post by Klangzaun » Sun Feb 18, 2018 5:46 pm

josaka wrote:works fine with my modular.. I have 2.. tbf I haven't done any in depth testing..
Thanks for confirming. Which modules are you using together with the Kenton Pro 2?

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Post by josaka » Sun Feb 18, 2018 6:39 pm

used hordijk / kobal .com and stroh stuff.. maybe some others too... makes no dfference really they are all the same standards..

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Post by eskimo99 » Tue Feb 20, 2018 9:34 am

I have been using the same pro with 8 MOTM 800’s. All work fine, though one of those I got used and is not the same as the others... probably came that way. I rearranged modules when I installed it so I’m not sure if it’s one I already had.

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Post by eskimo99 » Tue Feb 20, 2018 9:37 am

Here it is

CV x Gate Select (default: 5v pull-up)
- you can select the following type outputs for the Gate output;
S-trig no pull-up
This would probably be used for Moogs & Korgs.
S-trig 5v pull-up
S-trig 15v pull-up
This would probably be used on the Yamaha CS range of synths instead of the Gate output.
Gate V-Trig 5v pull-up
Gate V-Trig 15v pull-up
These are the standard gates and should be used to run most synths including Roland,Arp, SCI.

Pro Manuel

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Post by Klangzaun » Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:50 am

eskimo99 wrote:Here it is

CV x Gate Select (default: 5v pull-up)
- you can select the following type outputs for the Gate output;
S-trig no pull-up
This would probably be used for Moogs & Korgs.
S-trig 5v pull-up
S-trig 15v pull-up
This would probably be used on the Yamaha CS range of synths instead of the Gate output.
Gate V-Trig 5v pull-up
Gate V-Trig 15v pull-up
These are the standard gates and should be used to run most synths including Roland,Arp, SCI.

Pro Manuel

I can’t find this in the Pro 2 manual.

I know the Pro 2000 has different options for the gates.
Last edited by Klangzaun on Sun Feb 25, 2018 12:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by eskimo99 » Tue Feb 20, 2018 1:53 pm

My apologies, that was from the Kenton Pro 2000 manual.

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Post by josaka » Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:23 pm

the pro 2 has a seperate (extra addition option) hz/v..

drop kenton an email.. they are good at replying

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Post by J3RK » Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:37 pm

I can't make guarantees across all manufacturers, but 15V should be perfectly safe. Most of the ICs used in modular synths are completely fine with that, and if they aren't should be protected by some type of buffer.

In the case of mine, anything between around 2V and +V will work fine (and even a little bit over +V). I'm pretty sure MOTM will be fine there as well.

If you question a certain module, I would try to get in touch with the maker to check, but you can be reasonably sure it's ok.

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Post by Klangzaun » Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:55 pm

Yes, I asked makers and the are confident that it is safe, but 3 of them mentioned to use an attenuator as well.

I guess I will go for the Pro 2000 MK II, which offers some more benefits according the Pro 2.

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Post by EPTC » Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:46 pm

Interesting conversation.

Can anyone describe in physical terms what happens when you apply a higher voltage gate or trigger to something?

For example, I have a 10v gate attenuated down to 5v for latching my minimoog (though I've found the gate holds at voltage as low a 2v, nicely) - But I don't know what happens with components if I were to keep that gate at 10v - Would it eventually wear out that component, or just not work accurately as calibrated?

And what's the thinking with those weird modules and synths that require a 15v gate? Somehow this makes me think the thing is sturdy, "Oh that needs a 15v gate to open" - But it's not like it's a physical gate, ha - it's more appropriately just stubborn. Why 15 volts?

Sorry if this is a tangent, but I think it's applicable to the conversation, hopefully.

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Post by aj55 » Wed Feb 21, 2018 6:36 am

@EPTC, there are topics in the Moog forum suggesting that 10V might be "too hot" when used for a longer time.....

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Post by kindredlost » Wed Feb 21, 2018 8:27 am

There are some lower voltages for things like guitar pedals and keyboards that take sustain pedal connections. Typically they are in the +5V range and some sustain pedals are actually TRS outputs seeking a switch state from the pedal but will accept a gate signal to work. When using the modular with these devices or keyboards I usually am careful to attenuate the signal until I find a working level. Other than that, I've never had any problems with too hot a gate signal in the 5U world. I have seen times when the signal was too low.

If you are concerned then by all means use an attenuator. Better you have confidence and good results than worry needlessly about a failure. Most of this stuff is pretty well buffered against over voltages but I'd take no chances with older gear.

STG Soundlabs makes the buffered mult which has a nice unity mixer as well. More modules like that are welcomed and act as sheriff in the wild west modular-land. The buffered mult and unity mixer are very handy when having problems between converging control voltages and gates. Highly recommended for any size or make of modular system.

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Post by dslocum » Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:40 pm

Based on my understanding of the the original question - Here's my take...

Gate / trigger signals are binary (0 or 1) and are almost always a voltage that goes from ZERO (not gated), to some higher positive voltage that we will consider a "1".

Depending of the manufacturer and the module, the gate / trigger might happen at +1.2v or +2.5v, or even something else. It really depends on how the manufacturer designs his / her gate inputs. It is solely up to the manufacturer to protect the inputs and outputs of his modules. IMHO.

Generally speaking though, I would expect that 99% of modules will "gracefully" accept gates / triggers in any reasonable range of synth voltages - from -15v to +15v and even a little beyond.
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Post by cornutt » Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:12 pm

In general, I would be wary of hitting any input with a voltage that exceeds the supply rails. Professionally designed circuits probably have protections, but amateur designs may not. Vintage gear may be at risk too; the old 741 op amps were very prone (in my experience) to latching up.
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Post by dslocum » Sat Feb 24, 2018 6:03 pm

You are quite right. I neglected to consider those modules and DIYers that might not have the experience in designing for what I'll call the "real world".

So folks, be sure you protect your "goes into's" and "comes out of's" so that the high voltages are clamped. Use a combination of diodes and resistors on your inputs and outputs and keep those IC chips happy! :banana:
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