5u modules with control of oscillator phase

Moog, Synthesizers.com, MOTM, Modcan, Moon and others..... Go big!

Moderators: Kent, luketeaford, Joe.

Post Reply
BudgetInfinity
Common Wiggler
Posts: 84
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2013 11:18 pm

5u modules with control of oscillator phase

Post by BudgetInfinity » Tue Mar 27, 2018 10:49 pm

I believe Mutable instruments Braids can do this.. any others?

User avatar
josaka
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1772
Joined: Sun May 15, 2016 2:00 am
Location: london

Post by josaka » Tue Mar 27, 2018 11:08 pm

any modules with PW/M .. which is most oscillators.. :)

JohnLRice

Post by JohnLRice » Wed Mar 28, 2018 1:29 am

josaka wrote:any modules with PW/M .. which is most oscillators.. :)
I wouldn't consider PWM the same as phase modulation? :hmm: I know it may sound similar at times but with PWM the phase is always the same. :spin:

User avatar
kindredlost
5U skiff friendly
Posts: 5764
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2009 1:45 pm
Location: Texoma

Post by kindredlost » Wed Mar 28, 2018 7:25 am

8-) Disclaimer: I haven't tried this with a scope yet but that doesn't stop me from spewing hypothetical notions...

Isn't "SOFT SYNC" a form of phase-lock-loop with drift? Isn't the difference between hard sync and soft sync a matter of WHEN and HOW MUCH the phase locking occurs?

If I understand it right there is a sync at the times when the phase of the driver (master) oscillator locks in with the driven (slave) oscillator. The slave waveform can have drive effects from the master integrated in to it's waveform but the "sync sound" happens only when the phases line up.

If all that is correct (speculative I'll admit) then the Q106 is capable of phase shifting to a degree, albeit with little to no control. Only the amount of driver input to the slave waveform is allowed for soft sync on the Q106.

Perhaps someone with a greater understanding of the Q106 can help. Our own Bryan Benting has made the triple soft sync module for the Q106 and it is a lot of fun if you have an array of them. I have modified a couple of mine for soft sync in place of the linear input. Just a jumper placement change as the Q106 has soft sync as a hidden feature already.

Anyway, I think you may be right about none of them having phase control. A PLL type of vco would be welcomed to this format.

ranix

Post by ranix » Wed Mar 28, 2018 8:12 am

Phase modulation via PWM

:hihi: :sb:

https://my.mixtape.moe/ljvark.mp4

JohnLRice

Post by JohnLRice » Wed Mar 28, 2018 8:21 am

ranix wrote:Phase modulation via PWM

:hihi: :sb:

https://my.mixtape.moe/ljvark.mp4
:jawdrop: Well all be damned! :tu:

User avatar
MrNezumi
Wiggling with Experience
Posts: 366
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2016 8:12 am
Location: Out of Bounds

Post by MrNezumi » Wed Mar 28, 2018 10:10 am

Stroh has both a phase modulation VCO, the Operator, and a PLL-able one, the Dual Mirror Core. Both are roll your own DYI modules; pcb boards available at Synthcube.

JohnLRice

Re: 5u modules with control of oscillator phase

Post by JohnLRice » Wed Mar 28, 2018 10:32 am

BudgetInfinity wrote:I believe Mutable instruments Braids can do this.. any others?
And in case you didn't know, FreeState FX makes a 5U version of Braids:
https://www.freestatefx.com/collections ... oducts/101

Not controllable that I know of but Marienberg Devices makes the VC Sine Phase Oscillator that has multiple and simultaneous phase outputs:
http://marienbergdevices.de/modular/ueb ... /vco-sine/

Krisp1 has the OCTO Quadrature LFO that has multiple simultaneous phase outputs:
http://www.krisp1.com/store/index.php?m ... cts_id=108

User avatar
Dob
Wiggling with Experience
Posts: 421
Joined: Sat Jun 19, 2010 1:17 pm

Post by Dob » Wed Mar 28, 2018 10:49 am

Doesn't the Morphing Terrarium allow phase control over CV?
(I have one in MOTM format)

Not that I ever used it... But I should. Maybe tomorrow :yay:

User avatar
Dob
Wiggling with Experience
Posts: 421
Joined: Sat Jun 19, 2010 1:17 pm

Post by Dob » Wed Mar 28, 2018 10:53 am

Ah yes it does, but it's normally hidden under jumper control. My build exposes the jumper controlled settings on the front panel.

User avatar
eskimo99
Learning to Wiggle
Posts: 33
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2012 9:37 pm

Post by eskimo99 » Wed Mar 28, 2018 11:03 am

The MOTM Morphing Terrarium does!!!

You can use a mod wheel to the phase adjust input. Or better yet the Y axis from a Continuum Fingerboard.

The Z output is the “centered” wave and the XY output becomes the “phased” output.

Both signals then need to be mixed at the exact level in order to bear the full effect

User avatar
Flareless
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1556
Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2015 6:33 am
Location: Ontario, Canada
Contact:

Post by Flareless » Wed Mar 28, 2018 11:34 am

Dob wrote:Ah yes it does, but it's normally hidden under jumper control. My build exposes the jumper controlled settings on the front panel.
Many of my builds do as well. What the hell is up with this use of jumpers. Most folks never get to fully explore some modules capabilities for lack of changing a jumper.

Switches are so much more fun and clickier!
Rich

Image

What can this strange device be? When I touch it, it gives forth a sound - Neil Peart

User avatar
J3RK
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 6715
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2009 12:46 pm
Location: Seattle

Post by J3RK » Wed Mar 28, 2018 11:45 am

MrNezumi wrote:Stroh has both a phase modulation VCO, the Operator, and a PLL-able one, the Dual Mirror Core. Both are roll your own DYI modules; pcb boards available at Synthcube.
The Operator is very 5U friendly. I'd also be happy to whip up an FPD file for it for a 5U panel if anyone would find that useful.

User avatar
burdij
Veteran Wiggler
Posts: 685
Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2009 4:38 pm
Location: Wisconsin US

Post by burdij » Wed Mar 28, 2018 12:25 pm

ranix wrote:Phase modulation via PWM

:hihi: :sb:

https://my.mixtape.moe/ljvark.mp4
Probably not a true phase control. The two oscillators in this example are tuned very closely together and the frequency is not being externally controlled so the hard sync is holding them enough in phase so that changing the position of the hard sync pulse gives the illusion of a phase control. This would not work well if it was necessary to change the frequency of the carrier unless both oscillators tracked each other closely.

The Moog 921 oscillator module with soft sync input will allow phase locking of two oscillators as the soft sync (using the LM1496 balanced modulator) is actually a 1:1 PLL. It would require some external modules, I think, to provide phase control or phase modulation via CV. I don't believe the soft sync on a Q106 will allow a phase lock relationship to be established because there is no feedback to the frequency control input of the phase difference information and as one person mentioned, there is no way to control the locking phase.
Knobcon 7 - 2018 Photo Album
While website and store updates are in progress, access the Grove Audio Synth Store
Tesla Science Center http://www.teslasciencecenter.org

User avatar
Dave Peck
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 4154
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2011 1:22 pm
Location: SF bay area

Post by Dave Peck » Wed Mar 28, 2018 12:38 pm

If an oscillator's hard sync will lock to any rising voltage passing the zero volt line (like will it lock to an upward sloping saw wave? Or does it need a vertical wavefront like from a square wave?) then this osc can do variable phase just by adding a DC coupled mixer between the sync source osc and the sync'd osc:

Instead of patching your upwards saw wave (the 'sync source') directly to the sync input of the sync'd osc, patch it to one input of the mixer, and patch the mixer output to the Sync input.

Now when you add any kind of control voltage to another input on the mixer, like a slow LFO sine, it will combine with the saw and the mixer output will give you a saw wave that is slowing being 'biased' positive and negative by the LFO. This moves the saw wave's 'zero crossing' point along the diagonal upward ramp of the waveform, from near the start of the ramp to near the end of the ramp. This in turn causes the sync'd osc to alter it's phase relative to the original saw wave. Viola!

BudgetInfinity
Common Wiggler
Posts: 84
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2013 11:18 pm

Post by BudgetInfinity » Wed Mar 28, 2018 9:22 pm

I don’t mean modulate as in PWM, I mean control where the oscillator begins when synced via a reset input. I’ve seen this in soft synths like sylenth where the osc phase can be offset by 90, 180, 270 degrees and presicely controlled to reset on key input from the given start point.

ranix

Post by ranix » Thu Mar 29, 2018 7:31 am

that's what I was showing in my example above

take the inverted pulse output of one oscillator and send it to the hard sync input of the second oscillator and you have control of the phase discrepancy via the PWM knob.

if you need exact 90 degree relationships, an oscilloscope is a perfect tool for using to tune them. X/Y mode will show a perfect circle if they are 90 degrees out of phase and the other states are easy to intuit by looking at the shapes

the weakness of this technique is that the oscillators desynchronize at 0 degrees

User avatar
Dave Peck
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 4154
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2011 1:22 pm
Location: SF bay area

Post by Dave Peck » Thu Mar 29, 2018 1:12 pm

I see what budget infinity is asking for now - he's not asking about varying the phase of the sync'd osc relative to the sync source osc, he's asking about varying the retrigger point along the length of the waveform of the sync'd osc when it retriggers: for example if the sync osc is outputing a saw wave, when it gets a trigger at the sync input jack, does it restart at it's zero crossing point, half-way up the ramp? at it's highest point, +5V at the end of the ramp? at it's lowest point, -5V at the start of the ramp?

The retrigger point can have a big impact on the sound. I know of digital oscs that offer this variable retrigger phase when hard sync'd but I don't know of an analog osc that does this.

User avatar
josaka
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1772
Joined: Sun May 15, 2016 2:00 am
Location: london

Post by josaka » Thu Mar 29, 2018 1:51 pm

Dave Peck wrote:I see what budget infinity is asking for now - he's not asking about varying the phase of the sync'd osc relative to the sync source osc, he's asking about varying the retrigger point along the length of the waveform of the sync'd osc when it retriggers: for example if the sync osc is outputing a saw wave, when it gets a trigger at the sync input jack, does it restart at it's zero crossing point, half-way up the ramp? at it's highest point, +5V at the end of the ramp? at it's lowest point, -5V at the start of the ramp?

The retrigger point can have a big impact on the sound. I know of digital oscs that offer this variable retrigger phase when hard sync'd but I don't know of an analog osc that does this.
...not sure but could you do that with the krisp 1 TZ edge sync ?
(the oakley MM osc does too)

Image

sersch
Ultra Wiggler
Posts: 836
Joined: Sat Nov 19, 2011 5:08 pm
Location: Hamburg

Post by sersch » Thu Mar 29, 2018 1:58 pm

Dave Peck wrote:The retrigger point can have a big impact on the sound. I know of digital oscs that offer this variable retrigger phase when hard sync'd but I don't know of an analog osc that does this.
The Moog 921 does this via its Clamping function.

Post Reply

Return to “5U Format Modules”