Dove Audio Waveplane oscillator

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ranix
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Post by ranix » Sun Apr 28, 2019 6:34 pm

PaulaM wrote: and do you have four wavetable modules for each corner as well (remember each corner has it's own wavetable too) ?
wow 4? Not just 2 in each corner?

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Post by PaulaM » Mon Apr 29, 2019 1:16 am

ranix wrote: wow 4? Not just 2 in each corner?
Yes, each corner has it's own wavetable.

Think of it like the prophet VS, you can crossfade between the four waveforms using CVs, but each of the four waveforms also has a wavetable with CV inputs.

so it's not a 3 dimensional cube like you showed before.. it's a 2 dimensional plane but the corners of the plane can vary in real time and independently.

This is what makes it unique, 6 dimensions of waveforms.

When I get the module back from DivKid (who's doing a couple of videos) I'll post something with a static X/Y position and the 4 corner wavetables being modulated.

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Post by Sugarfree » Mon Apr 29, 2019 1:48 am

what you describe is an equivalent of a wavetable oscillator with 4 banks and n-rows in each bank. It doesn't really matter if you call it corners or banks, because you only have one scanning point, not 4 independent oscillators (with independent pitch control).

The advantage of your design is that you can freely interpolate between any of the four banks, while the classical design will only let you interpolate between consecutive banks. In practice, I doubt that you could hear a difference. In fact, the YT demo sounds no different than a standard wavetable 2-axis scanning.
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Post by daveholiday » Mon Apr 29, 2019 4:29 pm

Paula,

I think you have yet again made a fresh and exciting contribution to the modular world. I fully support your decision to include the display on this module. As a "hands on/visual" type person the display makes sense to me. When I first played with the WTF osc, the display was a tremendous help for me to fully understand what I was hearing. I think it is a huge bonus when learning and understanding this type of module. I think your MU design still retains enough of a conservative style and layout to be acceptable to most of the MU crowd that would be willing to "experiment" with the digital side of things!

If I had a complaint, it would be about the 3 space size. But as I study your layout, I can't see a good way to condense the size without resorting to "eurorack style" tiny knobs or destroying what I feel is a logical knob layout. So....it looks damn good from my house!!!

At least is doesn't look like some awful, thrown-together 6 space Franken-synth with multi colored and multi style knobs!! :hihi:
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Post by PaulaM » Mon Apr 29, 2019 4:59 pm

Sugarfree wrote:what you describe is an equivalent of a wavetable oscillator with 4 banks and n-rows in each bank. It doesn't really matter if you call it corners or banks, because you only have one scanning point, not 4 independent oscillators (with independent pitch control).

The advantage of your design is that you can freely interpolate between any of the four banks, while the classical design will only let you interpolate between consecutive banks. In practice, I doubt that you could hear a difference. In fact, the YT demo sounds no different than a standard wavetable 2-axis scanning.
You're welcome to your opinion, and if you feel you can do the same as I did in my video (even at the end where I change the corner waveforms) with a "standard 2-axis scanning module" I'd love to see it.

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Post by PaulaM » Mon Apr 29, 2019 5:00 pm

daveholiday wrote:Paula,

I think you have yet again made a fresh and exciting contribution to the modular world. I fully support your decision to include the display on this module. As a "hands on/visual" type person the display makes sense to me. When I first played with the WTF osc, the display was a tremendous help for me to fully understand what I was hearing. I think it is a huge bonus when learning and understanding this type of module. I think your MU design still retains enough of a conservative style and layout to be acceptable to most of the MU crowd that would be willing to "experiment" with the digital side of things!

If I had a complaint, it would be about the 3 space size. But as I study your layout, I can't see a good way to condense the size without resorting to "eurorack style" tiny knobs or destroying what I feel is a logical knob layout. So....it looks damn good from my house!!!
Thank you, I try my best and I don't like making modules any bigger than is necessary, one of the things I love about MU sized modules is that they're not "squished" together, I can understand why some people like this, but for me, I prefer the bigger spacing.
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Post by Sugarfree » Tue Apr 30, 2019 8:54 pm

PaulaM wrote: You're welcome to your opinion, and if you feel you can do the same as I did in my video (even at the end where I change the corner waveforms) with a "standard 2-axis scanning module" I'd love to see it.

Paula
I thought you'd never ask :)
See attached example of four-quadrant wavetable scanning. A single wavetable oscillator (MI Plaits), 4 LFOs, 4 VCAs and a joystick. For clarity, I'm only changing the position of the first quadrant, with the fastest LFO. The others are free running at different speeds.
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Post by PaulaM » Wed May 01, 2019 1:19 am

Sugarfree wrote: I thought you'd never ask :)
See attached example of four-quadrant wavetable scanning. A single wavetable oscillator (MI Plaits), 4 LFOs, 4 VCAs and a joystick. For clarity, I'm only changing the position of the first quadrant, with the fastest LFO. The others are free running at different speeds.
so you have one oscillator, and you're using the Aux and Main output of the Plaits I assume (A picture is worth a thousand words).
But that's not the same functionality as you get with the waveplane oscillator.

To get the same functionality you'd need 4 independent wavetable oscillators and 12 VCAs.

Show me that done in 16 HP.

Paula :)
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Post by Sugarfree » Wed May 01, 2019 12:11 pm

no, it's just the main output from Plaits. Everything else is modulation.
My point was that I can get the same sound from a single oscillator, and that the complexity of your design doesn't sound like anything more than that.
Also, controlling this type of modulation planes with a joystick is much easier then knobs. If you replaced the screen with a joystick, you would need fewer knobs as well.

BTW, 4 independant oscillators would also produce 4 independent pitches, I don't think your module has this capability.
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Post by josaka » Wed May 01, 2019 1:01 pm

even when someone is not right .. they find a way to say they are right..
this sums up the internet.

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Post by PaulaM » Wed May 01, 2019 2:17 pm

Sugarfree wrote:no, it's just the main output from Plaits. Everything else is modulation.
My point was that I can get the same sound from a single oscillator, and that the complexity of your design doesn't sound like anything more than that.
Also, controlling this type of modulation planes with a joystick is much easier then knobs. If you replaced the screen with a joystick, you would need fewer knobs as well.

BTW, 4 independant oscillators would also produce 4 independent pitches, I don't think your module has this capability.
So, you're comparing an apple with a slice of ham.
Your point is mute as what you have done does not replicate what is possible with this.

Look, I get you don't like the module, and I get that you won't buy it, that's fine.

So, why not just move on and let others who have actual questions have a say rather than trying to troll me. Honestly I've seen it all before.
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Post by PaulaM » Wed May 01, 2019 2:19 pm

josaka wrote:even when someone is not right .. they find a way to say they are right..
this sums up the internet.
Indeed.

anyway, they're now blocked, life is too short to argue with idiots.

I'm happy to answer questions for people about the module.

Paula
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Post by Sugarfree » Wed May 01, 2019 2:34 pm

PaulaM wrote:
josaka wrote:even when someone is not right .. they find a way to say they are right..
this sums up the internet.
Indeed.

anyway, they're now blocked, life is too short to argue with idiots.

I'm happy to answer questions for people about the module.

Paula
calling names I see... well, this was very mature of you.
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Post by Dave Peck » Wed May 01, 2019 2:58 pm

Sugarfree wrote:
calling names I see... well, this was very mature of you.
Maybe there is a misunderstanding about the module - ? Because it seems to me that regardless of whether someone likes the sound of this module, and regardless if someone feels they already have a wavetable osc that they like a lot, basic math and logic shows that one wavetable cannot accomplish the same range of effects as a continuously modulated mix of four separate, and separately modulated, wavetables.

One wavetable with X/Y scanning won't give you a simultaneous mix of:
- a waveform modulated by a slow sine LFO, slowly scanning between wave position A1 to A28
- another waveform modulated by a fast square LFO, 'trilling' between wave position C9 and D9
- another waveform that is swept by a saw LFO from B40 to B256 and snaps back to B40
- another waveform that is modulated by a S/H, randomly jumping between wave selections

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Post by Sugarfree » Wed May 01, 2019 3:02 pm

Dave Peck wrote: Maybe there is a misunderstanding about the module - ? Because it seems to me that regardless of whether someone likes the sound of this module, and regardless if someone feels they already have a wavetable osc that they like a lot, basic math and logic shows that one wavetable cannot accomplish the same range of effects as a continuously modulated mix of four separate, and separately modulated, wavetables.

One wavetable with X/Y scanning won't give you a simultaneous mix of:
- a waveform modulated by a slow sine LFO, slowly scanning between wave position A1 to A28
- another waveform modulated by a fast square LFO, 'trilling' between wave position C9 and D9
- another waveform that is swept by a saw LFO from B40 to B256 and snaps back to B40
- another waveform that is modulated by a S/H, randomly jumping between wave selections
Did you listen to my demo? This is exactly what I did. 4 different scanning ranges, 4 different LFOs.
Last edited by Sugarfree on Wed May 01, 2019 4:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Dave Peck » Wed May 01, 2019 3:10 pm

Sugarfree wrote:
Dave Peck wrote: Maybe there is a misunderstanding about the module - ? Because it seems to me that regardless of whether someone likes the sound of this module, and regardless if someone feels they already have a wavetable osc that they like a lot, basic math and logic shows that one wavetable cannot accomplish the same range of effects as a continuously modulated mix of four separate, and separately modulated, wavetables.

One wavetable with X/Y scanning won't give you a simultaneous mix of:
- a waveform modulated by a slow sine LFO, slowly scanning between wave position A1 to A28
- another waveform modulated by a fast square LFO, 'trilling' between wave position C9 and D9
- another waveform that is swept by a saw LFO from B40 to B256 and snaps back to B40
- another waveform that is modulated by a S/H, randomly jumping between wave selections
Did you listen to my demo? This is exactly what I did. 4 different scanning ranges, 4 different LFOs.
I have a plaits. It's a great module. But it does not provide a mix of four simultaneous outputs from four wavetables (or even from four access points from one large wavetable) with four separately addressable and separately modulated wave scans, with different scan CVs for each of the four wave outputs.

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Post by Sugarfree » Wed May 01, 2019 4:04 pm

Dave Peck wrote: I have a plaits. It's a great module. But it does not provide a mix of four simultaneous outputs from four wavetables (or even from four access points from one large wavetable) with four separately addressable and separately modulated wave scans, with different scan CVs for each of the four wave outputs.
Technically, you are correct. Practically, with correct modulation it sounds the same.
Half of the wavetable banks in Plaits are interpolating, which means that you can do exactly this, mix between different waveforms.
Think about it this way, you need four distinct modulation states (incl. LFO speed, range, offset) and then transition between them (joystick).
Please note that Plaits has 4 banks of 8x8 wavetables (4 banks x 8 columns 8 rows), so you have 3 modulation destinations.

And for the record, I do believe Waveplane Oscillator has merit, I just think the interface is inadequate, sacrificing functionality (joystick) over eye-candy (screen).
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Post by Sugarfree » Wed May 01, 2019 4:27 pm

let me describe what I did in the demo:

- 4 LFOs, each has a different speed, shape, range and offset, which allows addressing a very specific range of a wavetable

- each LFO goes to dedicated VCA

- a joystick controls the mix of the 4 VCA, which then is used to modulate the wavetable

- to make the four quadrants even more unique, an X and Y CV from the joystick modulates the remaining two parameters in Plaits. This means each quadrant will address a different Bank/Column/Row.

- the only source of audio is the main OUT
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Post by ranix » Wed May 01, 2019 4:33 pm

the point of the waveplane oscillator is that it can interpolate each individual quadrant's wavetable to the next or previous one in its stack while also mixing between the 4 quadrants with the X and Y CV. Your posts so far have not convinced me 100% you understand this nuance of the module, Sugarfree. I'm not familiar with Plaits enough to know if it can also do this in your patch.

I don't disagree that swapping out the quadrant's waveform is not necessarily sonically interesting. But I'm not sure that's the point you are making.

I think the poor choice of display output from the module is adding to the confusion. The screen should probably graph the current plane's orientation inside a rendering of a cube so you can observe how the plane's four corners relate to the cube, not simply show the contents of the plane on the display and a dot showing X/Y information with no Z feedback.

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Post by PaulaM » Thu May 02, 2019 12:31 pm

ranix wrote:the point of the waveplane oscillator is that it can interpolate each individual quadrant's wavetable to the next or previous one in its stack while also mixing between the 4 quadrants with the X and Y CV. Your posts so far have not convinced me 100% you understand this nuance of the module, Sugarfree. I'm not familiar with Plaits enough to know if it can also do this in your patch.

I don't disagree that swapping out the quadrant's waveform is not necessarily sonically interesting. But I'm not sure that's the point you are making.
Even though each of the four corners is it's a wavetable with CV inputs?
ok
ranix wrote: I think the poor choice of display output from the module is adding to the confusion. The screen should probably graph the current plane's orientation inside a rendering of a cube so you can observe how the plane's four corners relate to the cube, not simply show the contents of the plane on the display and a dot showing X/Y information with no Z feedback.
This is where the problem lies, this is NOT a 3 dimensional cube, it is a 2 dimensional "vector" mix but each of the four corners has its own wavetable, essentially giving six dimensions.
It would be impossible to show that using a cube.

The screen DOES show a cursor showing the position within the four waveforms it is and each of the four waveforms also has a number to represent it.

I hope that helps :)

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Post by ranix » Thu May 02, 2019 8:08 pm

PaulaM wrote: This is where the problem lies, this is NOT a 3 dimensional cube, it is a 2 dimensional "vector" mix but each of the four corners has its own wavetable, essentially giving six dimensions.
It would be impossible to show that using a cube.
hmm, I don't think it is ever impossible to render a system with 6 degrees of spacial freedom inside a cube. My graph on the previous page is accurate except the maximum value of the TR/TL and BR/BL axes should be labeled D instead of B since there are four possible waveforms to interpolate between in each corner.

The output rendered using a cube would show the current wavetable as a plane with corners that map to the TR/TL/BR/BL axes. The plane would deform in three dimensions according to the "height" of the four corners on these axes where the full A waveform is the "Bottom" of the axis and the full D waveform is the "Top" of the axis. The dot would show the current x/y position on that plane.
Even though each of the four corners is it's a wavetable with CV inputs?
Yes I think the interesting sonic possibilities of this patch would be exposed with only 2 waveforms in the four corners. I think the patch idea has merit without wavetable oscillators at all. The way you navigate by deforming the corners of the plane instead of by moving the center position directly is very interesting. I'm now messing with this idea using things other than wavetables in the four corners, like using them as modulation indexes for FM or as CV for a mixer in each corner instead. It's a good idea in general and I like it.

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Post by PaulaM » Fri May 03, 2019 12:37 pm

ranix wrote: The output rendered using a cube would show the current wavetable as a plane with corners that map to the TR/TL/BR/BL axes. The plane would deform in three dimensions according to the "height" of the four corners on these axes where the full A waveform is the "Bottom" of the axis and the full D waveform is the "Top" of the axis. The dot would show the current x/y position on that plane.
Fair point, though it would require more CPU power than is currently on the module.
ranix wrote: Yes I think the interesting sonic possibilities of this patch would be exposed with only 2 waveforms in the four corners. I think the patch idea has merit without wavetable oscillators at all. The way you navigate by deforming the corners of the plane instead of by moving the center position directly is very interesting. I'm now messing with this idea using things other than wavetables in the four corners, like using them as modulation indexes for FM or as CV for a mixer in each corner instead. It's a good idea in general and I like it.
Lots of options for example mixing filter types, or modulation sources as you say.

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Post by josaka » Fri May 03, 2019 1:56 pm

practical demos over theory banter A.D.L :)

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Post by kindredlost » Thu Oct 03, 2019 3:45 pm

How is this coming along Paula?

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Post by PaulaM » Thu Oct 03, 2019 3:53 pm

kindredlost wrote:How is this coming along Paula?
Hi, all the kickstarter pledges have shipped and I've shipped a couple to dealers (one in germany and one in the UK).

I shall be putting these on my website for sale sometime in the next week or so. I have a few with my Synthfest in sheffield, so why not come along and have a play and buy one?

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