I like my knobs...

Moog, Synthesizers.com, MOTM, Modcan, Moon and others..... Go big!

Moderators: lisa, luketeaford, Kent, Joe.

I prefer my MU modules to be

Single width even if it means all the controls are small - Space means everything to me
3
7%
Single width only if most of the controls are large - I prefer a little wiggle room
30
70%
It doesn't matter to me - a knob is a knob so I'll wiggle it
10
23%
 
Total votes: 43

User avatar
Flareless
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1351
Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2015 6:33 am
Location: Ontario, Canada
Contact:

I like my knobs...

Post by Flareless » Thu Feb 20, 2020 4:42 pm

:hihi: I know.... I said knobs :goo:

Now that we've had a chuckle I thought I'd ask a more serious question; lately there's been a lot of the consolidation of features on MU modules and the shrinkage ( :hihi: I know.... I said 'shrinkage' in a thread about knobs...) of larger double-width / 2U modules to single / 1U width. The biggest change is the replacement of the large 25mm (1") knobs with small 19mm (.75") knobs.

I've gotten some feedback from Wigglers and I know how I feel but I was wondering what y'all might feel on the subject.

Personally I don't mind the smaller knobs when their use is kept to a minimum. I do like the convenience of having larger modules reduced to single width for space consideration. I think if I had all the cabinet room in the world I'd want all my modules to have big knobs even it they had to go to the next width up to accommodate them.

Since I don't have all the room in the world though I personally prefer modules where at least the bulk of the knobs large.
Rich

Image

What can this strange device be? When I touch it, it gives forth a sound - Neil Peart

User avatar
trentpmcd
Wiggling with Experience
Posts: 359
Joined: Fri Mar 20, 2015 4:00 pm
Location: NH

Re: I like my knobs...

Post by trentpmcd » Thu Feb 20, 2020 7:57 pm

With the danger of sounding like a terrible parody of a rap song (Synthi's got front?), I like big knobs and I won't deny, it's why I chose 5U for my synthesi... (zer). But I'm not fanatical about it. I'll also say that on a small, stand alone synth, small knobs are much easier than on my modular, particularly as my system gets bigger and I'm reaching for something specific while I'm doing something else...

User avatar
kindredlost
5U skiff friendly
Posts: 5616
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2009 1:45 pm
Location: Texoma

Re: I like my knobs...

Post by kindredlost » Thu Feb 20, 2020 9:25 pm

Mostly it's a matter of the function of the knob. If it is for a filter cutoff or pitch to an oscillator/sequencer then I'd prefer it to be full size. If it is a minor significance then smaller is okay.

Of course the type of pot is important too. A linear can behave differently than an audio (log) does so (according to the circumstance), the behavior can dictate the ability to dial in what you are looking for. Some EG's have a tiny region of usefulness in the attack or decay sweep and the larger the knob the easier it is to tweak it in just right.

I don't think about the panel width much yet some of the recent re-designs have good results and some are never going to make my setup as they are way too compromised for the sake of space. I'll never regard a 5U setup as a busking rig regardless of the planning and forethought. The use of larger knobs is a main characteristic of 5U and will always hold sway as a design asset.

Putte
Veteran Wiggler
Posts: 682
Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2011 8:54 am
Location: Örebro, Sweden

Re: I like my knobs...

Post by Putte » Fri Feb 21, 2020 3:27 am

In my mind, there is also an opposite perspective. A module can be too spacy. Especially 2U modules with just a few or one knob. It looks a bit poor. The module can be of exquisite quality and do wonders to the patch, but I want a bunch of knobs on the panel. I´m so sorry Dr. Moog, but the first modules that comes to mind are your filters. I´m not judging them. I for one know that things should be sized up according to their time, and the Moog modular to the fact that it was among the first of its kind. But, they are good examples of what I mean.

There are also more recent examples of what happens when there is a lot of empty panel space. I´m thinking of some .com 1U:s, that have been combined into double featured modules. Then again, the .com series of modules should also measured by the fact that they are both cheap and good quality. I mean no harm in that case either.

User avatar
Paradigm X
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 2056
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2010 5:43 am

Re: I like my knobs...

Post by Paradigm X » Fri Feb 21, 2020 6:51 am

im motm (at the moment!) but fwiw, its the spacing rather than the knob size thats important.

Eg Tony uses both big and small knobs on his Oakley modules, and i find both equally good to use, as the spacing is proportional. when little knobs get crammed together (eg most euro) thats when i find it annyoing to use. some of the euro stuff is insanely cramped and some uses those awful tall trimmer things. using decent pots with a decent spacing is the key imo.

edit as an aside ive been planning (!) to clone the eqs on my old mixer in a module as theyre really nice. but they need 6 pots (HF, Mid Freq and Gain both x2 and LF) and two jacks and ive been trying to think of a clever way of doing that. some of the tellun panels use 6 knobs on an alternating grid which seems the best option. any ideas on this would be great!

cheers

User avatar
hsosdrum
Veteran Wiggler
Posts: 737
Joined: Thu May 25, 2017 11:02 pm
Location: Southern California, USA

Re: I like my knobs...

Post by hsosdrum » Fri Feb 21, 2020 7:30 am

Space... the final frontier (on Star Trek AND on synthesizers). I always prefer 1U modules to their 2U cousins, and am always happy to put up with smaller knobs and even a missing function or two if it means a module can be available in 1U rather than 2U. For example, because they're 1U wide (and they sound great), I have five 1U SSL VCO1200s in spite of their having a 12-octave coarse frequency adjustment — completely useless for my purposes — instead of an octave switch with a chicken-head knob, a feature I find enormously useful when experimenting with different multi-oscillator voicings. But they opened up 5U of space for other modules, so I put up with those PITA coarse frequency knobs.

I also agree that some of Roger's earlier Dotcom module designs were wasteful of panel width, apparently to keep them the same widths as their Moog counterparts. For example, the Q127 FFB could easily have been 3U wide instead of 4U. In fact, if Roger would be willing to use the smaller knobs from the Q179 he could easily design a dual EG on a single 1U chassis. (Just stagger the knobs and lose the manual Gate button.) I bet that would open up hundreds (if not thousands) of units of space across the Dotcom universe.

Maybe with some prodding we could even get Roger to design a simple 1U VCO: Chicken-head octave switch, 3/4" frequency fine-tuning knob, small knobs for CV and PWM, the small wave knob from the Q106A and a single wave output jack. 1V/OCT, CV, Sync and PWM inputs. K.I.S.S. :tu:

P.S: Speaking of 1U VCOs, has anyone received their STG VCOs yet? Suit's last post about it (from last October) said he was ordering panels.

User avatar
fac
wig MUffler
Posts: 3579
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2010 11:33 am
Location: Mexico

Re: I like my knobs...

Post by fac » Fri Feb 21, 2020 8:57 am

I like big knobs (and I cannot lie), and I prefer not to sacrifice knob size for less panel width. I don't mind so-called space-wasting modules, either (e.g., dotcom Ringmod and Reverb). I'm not into combining two completely unrelated modules into a single space (e.g., said ring mod and reverb) just for the sake of saving 1MU, or having 4 VCAs in 1MU as in the Grove Audio GMS714.

tardishead
Wiggling with Experience
Posts: 311
Joined: Sat Aug 03, 2013 3:00 pm
Location: London

Re: I like my knobs...

Post by tardishead » Fri Feb 21, 2020 9:03 am

There's always a lot of talk about the influx of "crammed" modules - and distain from the traditionalists
Personally if a module is "crammed" with features and has a lot of small knobs that don't need "wiggling" very much then whats the problem? This is an enhancement. But if the knobs are small and do need to be "wiggled" a lot then that does not really work! But everyone has to decide for themselves based around their workflow.
I say bring on the small knobs!

User avatar
Ockeghem
missa propecia
Posts: 1269
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2011 11:27 pm
Location: USA VA

Re: I like my knobs...

Post by Ockeghem » Fri Feb 21, 2020 3:49 pm

A bit o' wiggle room, I say :guinness:
My mouth laughs, but my heart weeps...
_______________________________
synthnut wrote: This is certainly a renaissance with bells and whistles on in the modular world. More MU is good for you, that's my motto...
TTFN,
Ben

User avatar
josaka
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1609
Joined: Sun May 15, 2016 2:00 am
Location: london

Re: I like my knobs...

Post by josaka » Fri Feb 21, 2020 5:09 pm

its all about how much space you have and what you are planning..
I have a fixed space.. 110 (another row planned but over moduled already..! )
so for me 1u is a crucial thing.. needs to be an extra special must have to warrant 2u/+..
going to repanel 4 2u kobol osc down to 1u and 3x .com 8ch mixers to 1u.. and so on..

User avatar
Gizmo
Common Wiggler
Posts: 244
Joined: Sat Jun 21, 2014 6:50 am
Location: New England USA

Re: I like my knobs...

Post by Gizmo » Fri Feb 21, 2020 6:25 pm

I prefer the "standard" 1-inch knobs along with decent clearance for patching. These were factors in my choosing MU in the first place. The smaller formats would just drive me batty. Cabinet space is a consideration but not an overriding one.

I tried the dotcom Q107A (SVF) 1U conversion and actually undid it, went back to the 2U panel, partly because of the loss of the notch output but also because I hated the huge knob Roger chose. Really hated it. A case of bigger is not necessarily better.

As for saving space, like anyone else I don't like to see expanses of unused panel space. I did the 1U S&H + Noise combination from Ben Marshall. He also did a 1U dual slew limiter (two dotcom Q105s) custom panel for me based on the Yusynth layout, a very comfortable adaption. From time to time I notice the half-unused Q115 reverb panel but haven't found a use for it yet.

The dotcom Q127 FFB is a pig but if it is going to be in the system, I prefer 4U for the knob clearances and readability. I also like the envelope generators as they are for much the same reason.

Still it is good to have alternatives and of course I agree everyone has to decide for themselves.

User avatar
hsosdrum
Veteran Wiggler
Posts: 737
Joined: Thu May 25, 2017 11:02 pm
Location: Southern California, USA

Re: I like my knobs...

Post by hsosdrum » Fri Feb 21, 2020 9:27 pm

josaka wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 5:09 pm
...going to repanel 4 2u kobol osc down to 1u and 3x .com 8ch mixers to 1u.. and so on..
I thought about shrinking a Q113 down to 1U last night when I was composing my earlier post, but didn't think it would be possible to stuff six knobs and 11 jacks comfortably onto a 1U panel. Would you be willing to share the layout you're thinking of using?

User avatar
Henfield
Better Chemistry through Sound
Posts: 1240
Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2009 12:20 am
Location: Detroit, MI

Re: I like my knobs...

Post by Henfield » Fri Feb 21, 2020 11:57 pm

hsosdrum wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 9:27 pm
josaka wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 5:09 pm
...going to repanel 4 2u kobol osc down to 1u and 3x .com 8ch mixers to 1u.. and so on..
I thought about shrinking a Q113 down to 1U last night when I was composing my earlier post, but didn't think it would be possible to stuff six knobs and 11 jacks comfortably onto a 1U panel. Would you be willing to share the layout you're thinking of using?
Look at this post from 2011, where somebody did this.
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=35395&p=474638&hilit=Q112#p474638
In fact the older Q112 used the exact same board as the the Other 113, so you can convert your older 4 channel mixer to a 1U 6 or 8 channel mixer. Dotcom did change a few years ago, and the Q112 PCB is not fully populated any more.

I don’t mind smaller knobs, if it means that I can have a 1U module, as I have a smaller, portable MU system. I like the newer Dotcom ++ modules for their functional density.
For Sale/Trade: 14U 84 hp Euro case . Willing to trade towards MU Modules, Moogerfooger pedals, Minifooger pedals, and other interesting effects boxes that work well with modular, try me!

User avatar
50050500
Learning to Wiggle
Posts: 17
Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2019 8:55 pm
Location: Auragone, USA
Contact:

Re: I like my knobs...

Post by 50050500 » Sat Feb 22, 2020 12:14 am

Putte wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 3:27 am
In my mind, there is also an opposite perspective. A module can be too spacy. Especially 2U modules with just a few or one knob. It looks a bit poor. The module can be of exquisite quality and do wonders to the patch, but I want a bunch of knobs on the panel. I´m so sorry Dr. Moog, but the first modules that comes to mind are your filters.
I am precisely the opposite. Those early Moog panels look delicious to me. I have a hard-on for "negative space". Too much panel density is a major distraction/inspiration killer. Bigger controls and simplistic sparsity is predominantly why I chose MU format. Give me breathing room or give me death...

... anally.

:omg:

User avatar
josaka
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1609
Joined: Sun May 15, 2016 2:00 am
Location: london

Re: I like my knobs...

Post by josaka » Sat Feb 22, 2020 6:56 am

saw this .. was my inspiration for doing it.. also a discussion in a different thread started me off..
going to cram 2 slew into one as well.+ maybe a noise/ring mod .com combo..
Henfield wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 11:57 pm
hsosdrum wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 9:27 pm
josaka wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 5:09 pm
...going to repanel 4 2u kobol osc down to 1u and 3x .com 8ch mixers to 1u.. and so on..
I thought about shrinking a Q113 down to 1U last night when I was composing my earlier post, but didn't think it would be possible to stuff six knobs and 11 jacks comfortably onto a 1U panel. Would you be willing to share the layout you're thinking of using?
Look at this post from 2011, where somebody did this.
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=35395&p=474638&hilit=Q112#p474638
In fact the older Q112 used the exact same board as the the Other 113, so you can convert your older 4 channel mixer to a 1U 6 or 8 channel mixer. Dotcom did change a few years ago, and the Q112 PCB is not fully populated any more.

I don’t mind smaller knobs, if it means that I can have a 1U module, as I have a smaller, portable MU system. I like the newer Dotcom ++ modules for their functional density.

User avatar
Henfield
Better Chemistry through Sound
Posts: 1240
Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2009 12:20 am
Location: Detroit, MI

Re: I like my knobs...

Post by Henfield » Sat Feb 22, 2020 5:52 pm

I did a number of repanels of Dotcom modules in the past. Unfortunately, I sold off all of my MU a few years ago when I went all Euro, so some of these modules are floating out there!

I combined 2 of the Q109 ADSR modules into a 1U module (all of my custom panels were done by Ben at Big Blue Wave), and I added in the VCA Rider from MegaOhm Audio as well into both EGs (after the picture was taken, as the VCA input replaced the manual trigger buttons).

I also did combine the S&H with Noise using Bens Panel, but I think that the newer Dotcom Q157 is a better idea, as it adds in an LFO, frequency/gate divider, and a slew generator as well.

The other module in that pic is the Q106 “Lite” that I created, shrinking down the Q106 from 2U to 1U, using some of the functions from the Q106 Aid that are already on the Q106 PCB.
1A23B2E6-CA99-4A29-891D-C902EE83EE71.jpeg
09D57583-F1E9-4264-B00C-DEED5806345E.jpeg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
For Sale/Trade: 14U 84 hp Euro case . Willing to trade towards MU Modules, Moogerfooger pedals, Minifooger pedals, and other interesting effects boxes that work well with modular, try me!

User avatar
hsosdrum
Veteran Wiggler
Posts: 737
Joined: Thu May 25, 2017 11:02 pm
Location: Southern California, USA

Re: I like my knobs...

Post by hsosdrum » Sat Feb 22, 2020 9:05 pm

Henfield wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 11:57 pm
hsosdrum wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 9:27 pm
josaka wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 5:09 pm
...going to repanel 4 2u kobol osc down to 1u and 3x .com 8ch mixers to 1u.. and so on..
I thought about shrinking a Q113 down to 1U last night when I was composing my earlier post, but didn't think it would be possible to stuff six knobs and 11 jacks comfortably onto a 1U panel. Would you be willing to share the layout you're thinking of using?
Look at this post from 2011, where somebody did this.
Thanks, josaka! I never thought to search for this by using "Q112" instead of "Q113".

User avatar
ranix
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1760
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 9:39 pm

Re: I like my knobs...

Post by ranix » Mon Feb 24, 2020 2:00 pm

Henfield wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 5:52 pm
I combined 2 of the Q109 ADSR modules into a 1U module (all of my custom panels were done by Ben at Big Blue Wave), and I added in the VCA Rider from MegaOhm Audio as well into both EGs (after the picture was taken, as the VCA input replaced the manual trigger buttons).

The other module in that pic is the Q106 “Lite” that I created, shrinking down the Q106 from 2U to 1U, using some of the functions from the Q106 Aid that are already on the Q106 PCB.
I ended up with a couple of these. I've got a dual-Q109 without the VCA rider (still has trigger buttons) and 4 standard Q109s connected to a Q146. I usually use the dual-Q109 for simple patches where I don't need to twiddle the knobs much. I also have a Q106 Lite that gets similarly used for simple duties where I don't need all the expanded controls of a regular Q106, things like providing a clock signal or a simple LFO.

User avatar
josaka
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1609
Joined: Sun May 15, 2016 2:00 am
Location: london

Re: I like my knobs...

Post by josaka » Mon Feb 24, 2020 2:19 pm

A great use of space.. none of you said Anything !!
envelope_generator_mu.jpg
an option there should be more push buttons like these.. instead of 3 jack outputs for an HP/BP/LP filter..
select the buttons.. if you want 2 say HP/LP hold the two buttons and both are selected.. this kind of space saving multi select could be used in a lot of ways.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
Henfield
Better Chemistry through Sound
Posts: 1240
Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2009 12:20 am
Location: Detroit, MI

Re: I like my knobs...

Post by Henfield » Mon Feb 24, 2020 2:36 pm

josaka wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 2:19 pm
A great use of space.. none of you said Anything !!
an option there should be more push buttons like these.. instead of 3 jack outputs for an HP/BP/LP filter..
select the buttons.. if you want 2 say HP/LP hold the two buttons and both are selected.. this kind of space saving multi select could be used in a lot of ways.
I have STG’s EG and DA in my Box 11 system as well!

I just need to get new panels from Ben, and make a homemade panel for the 8 channel mixer to get more functional density!
For Sale/Trade: 14U 84 hp Euro case . Willing to trade towards MU Modules, Moogerfooger pedals, Minifooger pedals, and other interesting effects boxes that work well with modular, try me!

User avatar
josaka
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1609
Joined: Sun May 15, 2016 2:00 am
Location: london

Re: I like my knobs...

Post by josaka » Mon Feb 24, 2020 3:41 pm

amazing creative tools the STG envelopes.. you can get similar things from the SSL 1230/1235 envelopes(need both tho) :)

User avatar
kindredlost
5U skiff friendly
Posts: 5616
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2009 1:45 pm
Location: Texoma

Re: I like my knobs...

Post by kindredlost » Mon Feb 24, 2020 11:24 pm

josaka wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 3:41 pm
amazing creative tools the STG envelopes.. you can get similar things from the SSL 1230/1235 envelopes(need both tho) :)
True... the 1230 has a big advantage for space with the cv control onboard. It loops and has curves all in one package. Very, very nice! The only downside is the simple ADSR footprint. The STG has the other Model's, Modes and Time factors. But the STG needs the side car (a big space hog) for c/v input to compete with the 1230. Also the 1235 has the distinct advantage of an on-board VCA.

I have found good use of the other "models" (such as the trapezoid and pyramid blaster) and especially the time factor on the STG EG's. I have only found a limited use of the c/v control for all of the EG's I have in all formats. So the side car with an STG is only so useful if you don't use the c/v feature so much. But if you DO decide to use it then the STG side car has more actual input flexibility than all the other ones combined. It is extremely wide-ranging and responsive compared to most of the ones I have in my system.

Another thing to consider is the dual nature of the STG EG. It has two outputs simultaneous, and two looping LFO's. Also if you have them wired to the Time Buffer in the suite it becomes perfectly timed to the sync bus clock and can perform time division duties. Hard to explain here fully but it is very powerful.

User avatar
josaka
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1609
Joined: Sun May 15, 2016 2:00 am
Location: london

Re: I like my knobs...

Post by josaka » Tue Feb 25, 2020 6:28 am

good description.. spot on ! :tu: ..the STG shapes are mighty .. the SSL are quite underrated too! :)
kindredlost wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 11:24 pm
josaka wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 3:41 pm
amazing creative tools the STG envelopes.. you can get similar things from the SSL 1230/1235 envelopes(need both tho) :)
True... the 1230 has a big advantage for space with the cv control onboard. It loops and has curves all in one package. Very, very nice! The only downside is the simple ADSR footprint. The STG has the other Model's, Modes and Time factors. But the STG needs the side car (a big space hog) for c/v input to compete with the 1230. Also the 1235 has the distinct advantage of an on-board VCA.

I have found good use of the other "models" (such as the trapezoid and pyramid blaster) and especially the time factor on the STG EG's. I have only found a limited use of the c/v control for all of the EG's I have in all formats. So the side car with an STG is only so useful if you don't use the c/v feature so much. But if you DO decide to use it then the STG side car has more actual input flexibility than all the other ones combined. It is extremely wide-ranging and responsive compared to most of the ones I have in my system.

Another thing to consider is the dual nature of the STG EG. It has two outputs simultaneous, and two looping LFO's. Also if you have them wired to the Time Buffer in the suite it becomes perfectly timed to the sync bus clock and can perform time division duties. Hard to explain here fully but it is very powerful.

User avatar
dslocum
darwin's nemesis
Posts: 1913
Joined: Sat Aug 29, 2009 6:58 am
Location: "Exit 89", NJ USA
Contact:

Re: I like my knobs...

Post by dslocum » Tue Feb 25, 2020 10:29 am

I love our SSL Envelopes functions (thanks to Tom Wiltshire's awesome chips), but with due respect - I bow to the innovations in STG's envelopes. Brilliant.

I know the subject has come up before, but as we are on a "module width" bent and knob size is a topic - how do you feel about the sliders we are using? :sstorm:
Doug Slocum
Synthetic Sound Labs
www.steamsynth.com
------------
"I guess all the Forest Mims Radio Shack books I read finally paid off!"
"I ordered twice as many _______ as I thought I'd need, only to find out that I'm still less than half way to having enough."
"...this whole thing was started by a dream and a mouse." - Walt Disney
"Flatulence sounds aren't just for brass and reed instruments anymore, thanks in large part to Dr Moog." - Ockeghem

User avatar
josaka
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1609
Joined: Sun May 15, 2016 2:00 am
Location: london

Re: I like my knobs...

Post by josaka » Tue Feb 25, 2020 11:18 am

I personally love slders and your led ones are great.. you can see whats going on from across the room for example.. but ..there are a heap of fuddy duddies in 5u who always seem to be looking for problems in anything that doesnt fit their narrow bandwidth mentality.. I wished that STG euro design fader Envelope would have come to 5u.. much prefer that..
envelopegenerator.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Post Reply

Return to “5U Format Modules”