Moon 565 Quantizer V3

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Minimoog56
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Post by Minimoog56 » Fri Sep 06, 2013 8:44 pm

565v3 quantizer and 565d and 565e controllers with 567 programmer here. 565e hooked up to top two quants out and 565d to the bottom two quants out.

Bugs I seen:

565v3 gates firing/light up with nothing connected to it. Seems to be a grounding problem or ghosts.

Gates out of quantizer are sporadic at best, even when 565v3 gate in is connected by a cable to 569 gate out. Need to take gates out of 565v3 for clean triggering of envelops.

565d buttons don't engage cleanly. Sometimes need to double press to engage.

567 programmer and 565d both lock up when 569/563 triggers at high speed clock. Must reboot system to unlock. Also quantizer, controller, and programmer lockup when 565d is connected to top two quants of the 565v3 with high speed clocks in.

565e is overall superior to 565d IMHO which is why I have both. Gert sent me replacement 565v3 board and problems persist as described above.
Last edited by Minimoog56 on Sun Dec 22, 2013 1:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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bwhittington
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Post by bwhittington » Wed Dec 11, 2013 7:00 pm

This evening I experienced the same fluttering pitches on my 565 v3 while the gate input patched, as others have reported. Trying to figure out what was going on, I realized that I was using a gate with a rather wide pulse width. When I shortened the width, the quantizer responded correctly again. It seems the module may be expecting more of a trigger signal than a gate.

It seems that some Moon gear is a little finicky about the gates it receives. I wonder if some of the modules might only tested in one controlled set up, i.e. Gert's system. While it would be nice if the module handled everything that was thrown at it in the same way, I have to admit I'm now thinking through patches to vary the gate width for controlled "freak out" accents. :hihi:

I thought this might be helpful to some who were having problems. Hopefully, you will have similar results.

Cheers,
Brian

JohnLRice

Post by JohnLRice » Wed Dec 11, 2013 8:53 pm

Good observations, Brian! Gert can confirm or deny this but maybe it starts 'sampling' once the gate goes high and then settles on the voltage to use on the falling edge? Seems like this would make sense for the behavior you describe. So, long gate times are problematic and the slower the sequence is, the worse the problem might be I guess.

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milkshake
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Post by milkshake » Thu Dec 12, 2013 4:43 am

The quantizer in the Rob Hordijk node processor works, thanks to some very clever programming, without glitches and doesn't need a trigger or gate. It can handle -10V to +10V input signals, can attenuate and transpose the input and select different quantizing scales.

Node processor video

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EMwhite
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Post by EMwhite » Thu Dec 12, 2013 8:57 am

Great to hear that you continue to pursue this, Brian. Every bit of info helps to unravel the mystery and from the sound of it you are onto something but sadly, I am 1000 miles away from my modular : (

The Moon modules are [otherwise] so well thoughout out and feature laden and this one problem has been bugging me. We always operate under the assumption that an LFO can run voltage through a quant to VCO and you'll hear steady stepping up the note scale. In theory (and in fantasy) this is how it ought to work.

When I get home, I'll see about messing around with differing pulse widths to see mine behaves (I have the prior version).

Re-reading some of this thread, I recall the perceived 'issue' I had with the STG Mini Volt Store and indeed, the comment made by another wiggler to attenuate (narrow the range) between the Volt Store and Quantizer helps! This applies to any full range sequencer or voltage generator.

The rest of the issue is/was the Moon. Hopefully this is clear and hopefully this is cleared up and some modification to patches will force the Moon to live up to it's worth.
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Post by holovicc » Thu Dec 12, 2013 3:08 pm

Great thread. The problem with the current 565 v3 exist still?

Wanted to check on the availability of the Hordijk node processor, could not find it! Can you please help me finding his homepage?

JohnLRice

Post by JohnLRice » Thu Dec 12, 2013 3:40 pm

holovicc wrote:Wanted to check on the availability of the Hordijk node processor, could not find it! Can you please help me finding his homepage?
I don't think Rob has a webpage yet. :hmm: :despair: His email is rhordijk@xs4all.nl though

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Post by holovicc » Fri Dec 13, 2013 1:53 pm

Ok, but is there a chance to see his modules with description and specs?

For quantizing, so far i have experience with the uScale in euro format which works perfect. Would be a great surprise if the Moon stuff failed.

Btw JLR, im glad you back to the forum :)

JohnLRice

Post by JohnLRice » Fri Dec 13, 2013 2:28 pm

Thanks holovicc! 8_)

A some of our other fine wigglers here have Rob Hordijk's modules like
Dave Peck:
profile.php?mode=viewprofile&u=4731
and Zeitdehner:
profile.php?mode=viewprofile&u=2039

Zeitdehner even has a page where he talks about his Hordijk modules and at the bottom of the page is a link to the manual for the minimatrix and node processor! :tu:
http://zeitdehnermod.blogspot.com/2012/ ... ature.html

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Post by holovicc » Fri Dec 13, 2013 3:08 pm

Thank you!

On the other hand i went to check on the Moon quantizer issue, but in this video it works pretty tight:


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doctorvague
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Post by doctorvague » Tue Feb 04, 2014 8:40 am

Resurrecting this old thread intentionally. I just fucked up and bought a Moon quantizer and controller used. My bad - I should have done my research first. I disagree with a lot of the above opinions. I really think you should be able to throw it a sine wave or random voltages and have it spit out clean scale voltages. That's why I bought it. I see the gate in feature as a feature, not a necessity. It should work (differently but properly) with or without a gate in IMO. I'm not using a sequencer so advice to tune the sequence better is pointless. IMO that's what the quantizer is for! To me that's like "If you drive REALLY SLOW the brakes work pretty good!" My question is why do these glitchy (not working properly IMO) modules continue to be sold? If it absolutely needs a gate in to function properly at all, that should be clearly stated on Moon's web site.

JohnLRice

Post by JohnLRice » Tue Feb 04, 2014 9:09 am

Hi Doc,

Sorry you purchased some unhappiness just when you are getting back into the game! :waah: Out of curiosity, what sort of patches are you using the quantizer in?

Edit: Never mind about my question about what sort of patches you are using, I just read your post and understand (skimmed it the first time :doh: )

According to the information on Moon's site here, it "should" quantize properly just giving it a sine wave CV input so long as nothing is plugged into the gate input. I know there are old examples (I think) but could you post an audio or video example?

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doctorvague
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Post by doctorvague » Tue Feb 04, 2014 9:28 am

JohnLRice wrote:Hi Doc,

Sorry you purchased some unhappiness just when you are getting back into the game! :waah: Out of curiosity, what sort of patches are you using the quantizer in?
Thanks John. Sorry to rag on your friend Gert, it's nothing personal of course. In spite of the above, I had fun wiggling my new system last night. Probably 2 hours to the same drum loop. I'm sure dear wifey is thrilled for me :hihi:

I was using my Minibrute as a 1V/Oct (sorta) CV source - from it's arpeggiator of course, since it's me and all. So there's one melody. Then talking that and inverting/reshaping it with a Signal Processor>quantizer for a second melody in the same scale. Even sending gates (from the Minibrute) didn't work in this case. About every 10th note or so is glitchy noise. Out of desperation also tried running through 2 stages of quantizer but that made no difference at all, and maybe even made it worse.

A quantizer would really help and is almost a necessity for the kinds of music I want to do with the modular. My want of a good working quantizer (scale not semitone) goes back many years now (pre-Muff's). I'm THRILLED to have a system again! But... eternally frustrated with quantizers and Moon Modular in particular for selling glitchy shit (at high prices).

In other news my beloved Korg Mono/Poly went completely dead on me last night. I almost cried, seriously. That was my main 1V/Oct source too since I don't have a seq or MIDI>CV.

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Minimoog56
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Post by Minimoog56 » Tue Feb 04, 2014 9:43 am

What vague said. I sold my quantizer programmer for freezing requiring a power reboot to unstick. I find the bat switch controller is less glitchy with the quantizer than the push button version. Still doesnt resolve the gate in problems. The quantizer is a great design and I can"t imagine this cannot be fixed by a firmware upgrade.
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JohnLRice

Post by JohnLRice » Tue Feb 04, 2014 9:46 am

No problems! 8_) I only wish I had a Moon quantizier here to play with so I could try to reproduce the issues.

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doctorvague
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Post by doctorvague » Tue Feb 04, 2014 9:48 am

Minimoog56 wrote:...I can"t imagine this cannot be fixed by a firmware upgrade.
Exactly. Fix the fucking thing!

JohnLRice

Post by JohnLRice » Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:02 am

Minimoog56 wrote:The quantizer is a great design and I can"t imagine this cannot be fixed by a firmware upgrade.
I have no idea what the circuit is like but it could be possible that there aren't any CPU, DSP, FPGA or other firmwarable devices in it at all? :hmm:

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doctorvague
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Post by doctorvague » Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:06 am

It has a big chip in it but it's facing interior toward another board so i can't identify it without taking the thing apart.

Sorry about my rant.
Last night instantly revived a bunch of old quantizer frustration.
And a lot of "They put a man on the moon..." kind of feelings.

JohnLRice

Post by JohnLRice » Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:17 am

doctorvague wrote:It has a big chip in it but it's facing interior toward another board so i can't identify it without taking the thing apart.
Sometimes you can tell if you see a programming header on the back of the board. Typically might look like a single row of pins similar to a DotCom power header but without the friction lock tab.

Anyways, sorry you your keyboard died and you had a generally bad night! :sadbanana: :hug:

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Post by doctorvague » Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:28 am

JohnLRice wrote:
doctorvague wrote:It has a big chip in it but it's facing interior toward another board so i can't identify it without taking the thing apart.
Sometimes you can tell if you see a programming header on the back of the board. Typically might look like a single row of pins similar to a DotCom power header but without the friction lock tab.

Anyways, sorry you your keyboard died and you had a generally bad night! :sadbanana: :hug:
Thanks John. What a nice guy.
Actually I had great fun wiggling before the Mono died and had some cool shit happening.
Look forward to posting vids again and generally having fun with it.

There are several headers including one 14 pin with side clamps on it that looks the business and a 6 pin simple single row and 2 2-pin ones. I'll probably take it apart later just out of curiosity.

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Post by EMwhite » Tue Feb 04, 2014 11:32 am

JohnLRice wrote:
Minimoog56 wrote:The quantizer is a great design and I can"t imagine this cannot be fixed by a firmware upgrade.
I have no idea what the circuit is like but it could be possible that there aren't any CPU, DSP, FPGA or other firmwarable devices in it at all? :hmm:
It's a PIC18F2420 micro controller, at least, on the V2. Other ICs are the typical op amps, an opto isolator, A/D, a voltage regulator, plenty of passive components, and of course a series of trimmers.

I can't speak to whether or not 40mhz (I don't see any external timing crystals) is sufficient for 4 channels of realtime quantizing or if there are other design limitations but new code will only get you so far if the hardware design stands in the way.

There is a header for programming onboard but the PIC is socketed so in theory you could just pop the chip and pop in a new one assuming you were up for disassembling the module.

Many builders (not just modules but guitar pedals) use surface mounted PICs and ATMegas and therefore require the entire unit to be returned unless the developer distributes code and depends on the field having access to a programmer; socketed chips are nice because you don't need this but of course cost a bit more.
Beware of programmers with screwdrivers...

JohnLRice

Post by JohnLRice » Tue Feb 04, 2014 11:36 am

doctorvague wrote:There are several headers including one 14 pin with side clamps on it that looks the business
That's either a COTK power connector or the expansion to the 565D/E
doctorvague wrote:and a 6 pin simple single row
That's probably a programming header if it's not the DotCom power header.
doctorvague wrote:and 2 2-pin ones.
Probably test points or other option expansion
doctorvague wrote:I'll probably take it apart later just out of curiosity.
Don't put yer lips on it! :hihi:

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ele
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Post by ele » Fri Feb 07, 2014 9:57 pm

I have 2 565d controllers and the quad quantizer 565v3 for sale if anyone is interested. I am parting out my 5u...

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Post by dude » Fri Feb 07, 2014 10:15 pm

ele wrote:I have 2 565d controllers and the quad quantizer 565v3 for sale if anyone is interested. I am parting out my 5u...
please do not post fs posts in here without having enough posts or even if you have enough posts, do it in the bst section. you are breaking the rules of the community and being a douche.

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Post by Ranxerox » Mon Feb 10, 2014 8:39 am

EMwhite wrote:It's a PIC18F2420 micro controller, at least, on the V2. Other ICs are the typical op amps, an opto isolator, A/D, a voltage regulator, plenty of passive components, and of course a series of trimmers.
That's interesting about the trimmers. I might have to play around with mine as it is definitely not the full quid.

Mine is a V3 and I have one of the push-button controllers patched into it. The controller works fine but the quantizer is giving me issues. Only the top quantizer works sort-of normally, the other three do not seem to respond to external gates and do not seem to like jacks fully plugged in, although they sometimes sort-of work if partially unplugged. I suspect some dry joints or lifted pads on the board and I mean to take the thing apart this weekend and try to fix it once and for all.

I have found it to be highly sensitive to gate length - it seems to continuously (and glitchily) sample the CV input for as long as the gate input is high, which means you have to manually reduce/fiddle with the gate duty cycle until it works as desired.

It would be very much preferable if it just sampled the CV on the forward edge of each gate and ignored DC and negative-going voltages - why the hell it wasn't coded that way in the first place I have no idea.

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