Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by Rigo » Wed Feb 05, 2020 5:31 am

Man-In-A-Suitcase wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 5:36 pm
indulging in immortal practices
:hihi:

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by StillNotWorking » Wed Feb 05, 2020 5:38 am

Zymos wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 1:48 pm
https://www.freemusictribe.com/
Wonder if they be smart offering parts on that site?

It seem to be an attempt to create a community. Their forum are quite dead and most people trying to get help and advise are either not getting any replies. Or if official are answering they often are advised to get a service ticket which seems to take forever to get respond to.

With prices B are charging you are not paying much for support as most other fabricators have to calculate into their sales prices. B thinking of support are their generic web server with link to user manual and a theoretical FAQ with basis in the user manual, — never disclosing any real problems(*) user has with the product.

Anyone seen the interview DivKid did with Dieter Döpfer? His comany are now 4 people incl himself. For TipTop Audio Gur Milstein himself are the one responding to your email support question. Same are true for Expert Sleeper where Andrew Ostler goes far and beyond to help you get results you want.
When you receive your non polyphonic Poly D with crackling chorus Who Do You Call - BhostBuster!

(*) This is normal practice in any business offering public FAQ's.
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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by Muzone » Wed Feb 05, 2020 6:52 am

Zymos wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 4:16 pm
Here’s an interesting little story

http://www.firstpr.com.au/rwi/dfish/beh ... uthorised/
Part of Robin Whittle's rambling whinge - " In addition to this electronic work, I work for my family's mining consulting business, Whittle Consulting."

One of Whittle Consulting's clients in Australia is Peabody Energy based in Missouri, the biggest coal mining company in the US with mines all over the world, and they make $6 billion a year facilitating the spewing of carbon into the atmosphere, they also fund spurious research to try and disprove climate-change.

So maybe play that "ma'n'pa business" ethics card a bit more carefully :doh:

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by gwaidan » Wed Feb 05, 2020 7:39 am

Just for perspective, I believe that standard rate of royalty for an "ex post royalty" involving a patent is 3%. Cherrypicking a standard royalty rate from a totally unrelated industry (book writing) is a head scratcher, especially when you use it as a criterion to reject a sizeable flat fee, in the (again, head-scratch-inducing) belief that you are going to get massively rich from a niche product.

I've owned one of Robin's quad memory, multiple outs TR606s since 1990 and it was a great friend until the CPU gave up late last year, but....let's not kid ourselves that what he has done here, while a labour of love, is more than a derivative work entirely dependent upon Roland's original 303 design, and it beats me how his IP is more deserving of community support and protection than Roland's.

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by oscilloscope » Wed Feb 05, 2020 8:41 am

In another music forum dedicated to slutz who are into gear ... they have a section for this type of thread, and it's called :
The Moan Zone

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by Peake » Wed Feb 05, 2020 5:20 pm

Sinamsis wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 10:15 pm
I never thought I'd see the day where Casey Casom was quoted on MW.
Casey Casem is a whiny piece of shit and I was using him as an example of the people whining in support of Behringer's parasitism because they don't care about anything but being offered cheap gear at the expense of innovators and the passionate who aren't in this for a fast buck. The Letter U and the Numeral 2.

“It sucks”: Devil Fish owner slams Behringer’s plan for ‘Murdered Out’ version of the TD-3 synth

https://www.musicradar.com/news/it-suck ... iZ7myC2GtM
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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by everydaycurry » Wed Feb 05, 2020 6:04 pm

Peake wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 5:20 pm
Casey Casem is a whiny piece of shit and I was using him as an example of the people whining in support of Behringer's parasitism because they don't care about anything but being offered cheap gear at the expense of innovators and the passionate who aren't in this for a fast buck. The Letter U and the Numeral 2.
This line gets trotted out all the time but I still don't know which "innovators and the passionate" have been harmed.

Devilfish guy 'innovated' more than two decades ago. His window for profiting from innovation, even if he had patented it, would be closed. Same with Roland and the 808 and so on.

We don't give 'innovators' sole control in perpetuity in any society - and where we've come close (the Mickey Mouse-ing of copyright and public domain) it's been a disaster.

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by synthcube » Wed Feb 05, 2020 6:05 pm

Interesting to read that recent post and Uli's associated reply and the lengthy email exchange. (Really, can ANYTHING remain confidential? Ever?)

One person's interpretation re the devilfish example: 'We always reach out to designers who might want to collaborate with new(er) versions of their designs. Of course, if they won't accept our economic proposition, we will take full advantage of them, their prior work, their brand and product recognition, the lack of formal IP protection, and the apathy of our many customers (and the distributors that serve them) who choose lower-cost mass-produced replicas over the alternative. You can't stop me- I will lowball you while appearing to desire collaboration, but will take advantage of your prior work whether you come on board under my terms or not and I'll hide behind the 'low margins' associated with this business historically to justify doing so.'

I don't know the man, but big money has been made forever under much worse relative ethical positions. If neither regulations nor the market work to moderate the success of businesses built on such an ethical standing, then who's to say any one's individual's ethics should do so?

Fascinating

Likely not a big enough market to warrant a Harvard B School case, but perhaps some interesting lessons on both sides of the argument.

Of course It's possible or even likely in the wider world of big global corporations, i-bankers and hedge funds -- that as Behringer continues to grow, it could reach a point where someone with real backing and scale either makes him a gazillionaire in a buyout, or goes at him head-on under a known global consumer electronics brand and takes him out in the process, or someone builds a rich community of all the designers in play and offers them a larger share of the upside in exchange for the value of their collaboration and related branding, support and scale. Smart business strategy guys are watching to see if there really exists a scalable market that enjoys no formal IP protections for all prior designs, and assessing the attractiveness of a niche but growing market made up entirely of replica work with virtually zero R&D investment. In an interesting way, Behringer is monetizing innovation in a market now that didn't sufficiently value the innovation at the time it was released . Generic pharma makers provide some interesting insights here.

As the market proves that there is money to be made from replicating and mass producing these magical machines, there's very little to prevent a smart global maker with a little bit of marginal capacity to replicate the Behringer portfolio, too, so those critical of Uli may also consider that the model he is proving out will potentially be attractive enough to others to cause his downfall. You can't build an empire based on a zero-IP protection model then fool yourself into thinking that you can create IP protections for your replication efforts. At that point, critics can stop insulting the man, and go after the 'cheap asian cloners' like has happened with other consumer electronic segments- TVs? Appliances? Light Bulbs? anyone?

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by Peake » Wed Feb 05, 2020 6:21 pm

everydaycurry wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 6:04 pm
Peake wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 5:20 pm
Casey Casem is a whiny piece of shit and I was using him as an example of the people whining in support of Behringer's parasitism because they don't care about anything but being offered cheap gear at the expense of innovators and the passionate who aren't in this for a fast buck. The Letter U and the Numeral 2.
This line gets trotted out all the time but I still don't know which "innovators and the passionate" have been harmed.

Devilfish guy 'innovated' more than two decades ago. His window for profiting from innovation, even if he had patented it, would be closed. Same with Roland and the 808 and so on.

We don't give 'innovators' sole control in perpetuity in any society - and where we've come close (the Mickey Mouse-ing of copyright and public domain) it's been a disaster.
This is what berhinger fans either cannot understand or simply couldn't give less than a shit about: if someone is currently making a living by building or modding something, it's common courtesy to not fucking steal it and sell it for a fifth the price. A healthy community has many people doing gear and not stepping on each other's toes out of ethical courtesy to the living everyone is attempting to make.

behringer fans: MUH CHEEEP GEEEEER fuck the communiteeee

TTSH. Deckard's Dream. Jasper. Devilfish. Moog. Apparently Buchla is next. Is there anything behringer could do their fans wouldn't defend? Sincerely doubtful.
Last edited by Peake on Wed Feb 05, 2020 6:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by everydaycurry » Wed Feb 05, 2020 6:39 pm

Peake wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 6:21 pm
This is what berhinger fans either cannot understand or simply couldn't give less than a shit about: if someone is currently making a living by building or modding something, it's common courtesy to not fucking steal it and sell it for a fifth the price. A healthy community has many people doing gear and not stepping on each other's toes out of ethical courtesy to the living everyone is attempting to make.

behringer fans: MUH CHEEEP GEEEEER fuck the communiteeee
It's not 'common courtesy' and it's not the way the way it works in any field, anywhere.

How many MS-20 or Moog filters are there in Eurorack? How many guitars that look like Les Pauls or Stratocasters? How many Buchla-derived modules?

The guy averages ten a year. There is no community, there's a handful of rich collectors. He's not doing it out of charity or for the good of humanity, he does it because it puts money in his pocket. Kinda like Behringer, but they're actually expanding 'the community' with products people seem to want and can afford.

... and it's funny how the go-to is "BEHRINGER FANBOI" - I'm not invested enough in VINTAGE VINTAGE VINTAGE to really care about the clones for myself (except maybe the Pro-1, which isn't competing with anything on the market) - but Behringer, thus far, hasn't hurt anyone (more than any other enormous capitalist enterprise). They're not killing innovation or desecrating Bob Moog's grave.
TTSH. Deckard's Dream. Jasper.
Those innovative... cloners?

It's fairly predictable at this point - cloning is fine, as long as you maintain a cost-standard that restricts ownership. Behringer's great sin seems to be bruising the sense of superiority from people who can afford to spend $10k to make ambient dronescapes.
Last edited by everydaycurry on Wed Feb 05, 2020 8:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by LunaticSound » Wed Feb 05, 2020 7:12 pm

I find it fascinating to get an image or maybe rather an emotion towards the different sides of this debate and their way of arguing.

I wish those angry one liner posters who drop by to just say "You who are having this discussion are human garbage" would also just quickly state their stance on the matter, so I could incorporate them into my picture of Behringer haters and fanboys and fangirls, idealists and nihilists, neo liberals and utopists... :lol:

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by Arneb » Thu Feb 06, 2020 1:04 am

LunaticSound wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 7:12 pm
I wish those angry one liner posters who drop by to just say "You who are having this discussion are human garbage" would also just quickly state their stance on the matter, so I could incorporate them into my picture of Behringer haters and fanboys and fangirls, idealists and nihilists, neo liberals and utopists... :lol:
In case this was a (not undeserved) dig at me:
- The vintage cloning discussion is purely academical for me. I'm not old enough to care about vintage, be it original or cloned. Wake me up when they clone the Bass Station.
- Nihilist.
- Anti-anticonsumerist of sorts. If you're a performative anticonsumerist, I'll assume that you're an asshole who's only in it to look down on others. Not a fan of capitalism, but I'll take honest capitalism over sanctimonious capitalism.

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by Peake » Thu Feb 06, 2020 1:21 am

everydaycurry wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 6:39 pm
TTSH. Deckard's Dream. Jasper.
Those innovative... cloners?

It's fairly predictable at this point - cloning is fine, as long as you maintain a cost-standard that restricts ownership. Behringer's great sin seems to be bruising the sense of superiority from people who can afford to spend $10k to make ambient dronescapes.
Thanks for reiterating MUH CHEEP GEER as the only interest it appears behringer supporters have. I for one would far rather have community members discovering things to clone and doing a living from it then being able to continue to offer more. Versus a parasitic org which will damage the ability of community members and existing professional musical instrument companies to continue. That's a community versus a parasite. Zero surprise there are so many supporters of parasites instead of a healthy community. It's honestly sickening in multiple ways. But I know I'm not changing any brains with such considerations...no surprise the world is in a shit state. All hail the lowest common denominator. There is apparently no line behringer could cross which would dissuade their supporters.
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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by strettara » Thu Feb 06, 2020 1:32 am

I'd love to get a Moog One. But at nearly 9000 euro it's not going to happen. If Behringer were to make a clone at around 1500 euro, I'd definitely think about it. That would be a sensible money in / enjoyment out ratio - for me, as a non-professional musician. On the other hand, I'd happily spend 2500 on a Bressan voiceflute in 415 from Ralf Ehlert, because I know exactly what I can do with it and how it would enhance my ability to make the music I love. Other people will have a different set of parameters. That's the which of the why of what I feel and I'm sure a lot of people would agree. It's got nothing to do with a moral stance pro or contra, except insofar as being sensible about how you spend your money is somehow "moral".
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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by seta666 » Thu Feb 06, 2020 2:21 am

Uli response to Robin

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/showpos ... count=4579

He wanted Behringer to pay him 303k $ a year, and suggested behringer to sell them more expensive so people would respect more the product and because people would pay it any way. According to Uli the devil fish is 3$ in parts....

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by thispoison » Thu Feb 06, 2020 2:57 am

Wow.

That was an interesting read to say the least.

I guess the entrenched "haters and fanboys" of either party (although I'm not sure there really are that many) are unlikely to be swayed, but the vast majority in the middle ground will benefit from the disclosure of this added detail?
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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by StillNotWorking » Thu Feb 06, 2020 3:49 am

seta666 wrote:
Thu Feb 06, 2020 2:21 am
Uli response to Robin

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/showpos ... count=4579

He wanted Behringer to pay him 303k $ a year, and suggested behringer to sell them more expensive so people would respect more the product and because people would pay it any way. According to Uli the devil fish is 3$ in parts....
And I thought I talk too much! Anyway I believe Robin is wrong that B could charge double for the DF version. That train already left the station going out low with the first two synths and then lowering it again. It be interesting to see if they will have to raise prices when more settled in the marked.

And even more interesting to watch DF in metal chassis selling for 2k when this story is out of the bag.

Edit: More for the topich in this thread, — etics. Reading further on that GS thread they want to ban Uli from GS for breaking forum rules that prohibits forwarding private messages and company bicker.

Two wrongs don't make it right. Right?
Last edited by StillNotWorking on Thu Feb 06, 2020 4:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by doombient.music » Thu Feb 06, 2020 4:11 am

Funkydroid wrote:
Sat Jan 25, 2020 1:02 pm
just saw today someone put on sale in my areas music forum B 303 for 150€. Used for a few hours. Folks buying and using them like socks. Thats the biggest issue i see here. Waste of resources and feeding the consumerism.
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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by everydaycurry » Thu Feb 06, 2020 4:25 am

Peake wrote:
Thu Feb 06, 2020 1:21 am
Thanks for reiterating MUH CHEEP GEER as the only interest it appears behringer supporters have.
It's obviously not the only interest, given that much of Behringer's output thus far has been storied but unobtainable gear like an analog 808, but yes, cost is a large part of Behringer's proposition. No one thinks otherwise. There's nothing wrong with that, elitism sucks.
I for one would far rather have community members discovering things to clone and doing a living from it then being able to continue to offer more.
Which cloners have been put out of business by Behringer? Why is it more valuable for Black Corps. to be able to sell a $4k 'inspired by'/clone to a relative handful of highly privileged people than for Behringer to sell many more to middle-class and young people?

What community is that, anyway? Is Black Corps donating product to struggling musicians? Sponsoring education? That's what community is - not Veblen good consumerism.

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by kons » Thu Feb 06, 2020 4:42 am

Interesting. Very interesting. This 'leak' of business correspondence tells us a lot that we didn't previously know but had speculated a lot about. If nothing else it gives the two opposing tribes a little more meaty substance on which to entrench their positions.


--I'd just like to commend the mods for establishing this quarantined discussion which necessarily veers into politics because of it's intersection with our common interest. It also serves as an object lesson in why the general banning of politics on MW was such a wise decision.

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by Muzone » Thu Feb 06, 2020 4:59 am

everydaycurry wrote:
Thu Feb 06, 2020 4:25 am
.......What community is that, anyway?
Seems to be that "community" in this sense usually means one person charging a small group of other (well to do) persons money for a DIY job with a catchy/zany name, but once it becomes "big bad business" it's then evil exploitation :doh:

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by Estes » Thu Feb 06, 2020 5:02 am

doombient.music wrote:
Thu Feb 06, 2020 4:11 am
Funkydroid wrote:
Sat Jan 25, 2020 1:02 pm
just saw today someone put on sale in my areas music forum B 303 for 150€. Used for a few hours. Folks buying and using them like socks. Thats the biggest issue i see here. Waste of resources and feeding the consumerism.
This!

Stephen
I saw the same behaviour with complex oscillators, buying them and after one week selling them. The Problem I see in this ocean of gear is that there arent really institutions with a good infrastructure where you can try out things before buying it and if you dont have a proper shop where you can test things then the only way is to buy and try it out and realize that you have been projecting something in that 303 that maybe wasnt there? :hmm:

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by Arneb » Thu Feb 06, 2020 5:09 am

Peake wrote:
Thu Feb 06, 2020 1:21 am
Thanks for reiterating MUH CHEEP GEER as the only interest it appears behringer supporters have.
For me it's less muh cheep geer and more muh <$5k-entry-cost community. Funny thing is, while I might be considered a "Behringer supporter" I'm not much of a Behringer customer. It's just that I really, really don't want anything to do with a community which bullies Volca, Microfreak, Neutron etc users. Been there, done that back in middle school.
Last edited by Arneb on Thu Feb 06, 2020 5:18 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by KSS » Thu Feb 06, 2020 5:13 am

synthcube wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 6:05 pm
or someone builds a rich community of all the designers in play and offers them a larger share of the upside in exchange for the value of their collaboration and related branding, support and scale. Smart business strategy guys are watching to see if there really exists a scalable market that enjoys no formal IP protections for all prior designs, and assessing the attractiveness of a niche but growing market made up entirely of replica work with virtually zero R&D investment.
Someone with a swallowtail logo perhaps? 8-)

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by spacessound » Thu Feb 06, 2020 6:40 am

Estes wrote:
Thu Feb 06, 2020 5:02 am
doombient.music wrote:
Thu Feb 06, 2020 4:11 am
Funkydroid wrote:
Sat Jan 25, 2020 1:02 pm
just saw today someone put on sale in my areas music forum B 303 for 150€. Used for a few hours. Folks buying and using them like socks. Thats the biggest issue i see here. Waste of resources and feeding the consumerism.
This!

Stephen
I saw the same behaviour with complex oscillators, buying them and after one week selling them. The Problem I see in this ocean of gear is that there arent really institutions with a good infrastructure where you can try out things before buying it and if you dont have a proper shop where you can test things then the only way is to buy and try it out and realize that you have been projecting something in that 303 that maybe wasnt there? :hmm:
yeah, but in Europe at least, you have to the right to return an item within 14 days without reason, which should limit this tendency. Certainly related though is a general lust for stuff overall and when supply becomes so abundant, (as Behringer is making program) people gorge themselves...and then regret it - rolling around with stomach ache after eating that whole packet of Aldi choc biscuits. (guilty)

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