Bought a Kurzweil K2000 v3.

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Hovmod
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Bought a Kurzweil K2000 v3.

Post by Hovmod » Tue Jun 28, 2016 3:45 am

Guess I'm learning V.A.S.T.
Wish me luck.

The manuals alone weigh more than my MS-20 mini.

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Annwn
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Post by Annwn » Tue Jun 28, 2016 5:55 am

I'd be interested to hear what you come up with.

For all I hear about V.A.S.T being the bee's knees with limitless possibilities, I've never really heard them doing anything particularly interesting.

Maybe the interface inhibits in-depth exploration?

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Hovmod
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Post by Hovmod » Tue Jun 28, 2016 10:25 am

I can't really tell you, all I've had a chance to do so far is cycle through a big bunch of less than thrilling presets, an activity for which I have low tolerance.

I'll update once I have been down in the menus. They say there are rewards to be had down there, and if I find it I might even post some noises.

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Post by Hi5 » Tue Jun 28, 2016 1:31 pm

Interested party here as well. Have always heard of the potential but have avoided one since they seem to be a bit much to get into.
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Post by Zealot Vague » Tue Jun 28, 2016 1:49 pm

My experience with VAST is: don't bother with "two oscillators into a filter" style patching. A squarer peg was never crammed into a rounder hole. Explore what you can do with modulating waveshaping parameters, and embrace the glitches, aliasing and other digital goodness. Also if your unit has some kind of an effects engine (I'm a little fuzzy on the Kxxxx specs), dive into that.
richard wrote:Don't listen to anything. Don't drink beer, don't smoke weed, don't sleep. Have no ideas whatsoever. Make some tea. Start with a sine wave.

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Post by Hovmod » Wed Jun 29, 2016 5:53 am

Played around a bit today, and followed a recipe for some true FM noises I was tipped about. This really goes deep. Everything can modulate or otherwise tamper with everything else, and the list of potential external mod sources is endless. I don't know yet if all of the external inputs use MIDI, but when I used the mod wheel to mod the modulator of the FM sounds I couldn't detect any stepping.
Promising. :party:

Edit: I guess the limitations are in the pre-configured algorithms, and the missing effects - they came later. 2500 or 2600.

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Post by Ranxerox » Wed Jun 29, 2016 6:41 am

Hovmod wrote: Edit: I guess the limitations are in the pre-configured algorithms, and the missing effects - they came later. 2500 or 2600.
"The K2000 and K2500 (without KDFX) have a built-in effects processor from Digitech Corporation, a manufacturer of high-quality professional signal processors. In the K2, the effects processor can use up to 4 simultaneous effects including: reverb, stereo chorus, stereo delay, EQ, and many others. Add the stereo effects processor to the powerful per channel DSP and you've got tremendous flexibility."

"The K2500 KDFX upgrade option includes Kurzweil's custom designed plug in hardware DSP option, along with new software objects, which assign the programs and setups to KDFX.

KDFX offers over 100 effects algorithms arranged into 260 effects "presets". Presets are presented in over 150 "studio" configurations. Up to 4 separate stereo effects plus a global auxiliary stereo effect are available. KDFX also includes two separate input EQs for each of the 4 stereo (or 8 mono) buses."

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Hovmod
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Post by Hovmod » Wed Jun 29, 2016 7:38 am

Ranxerox wrote:
Hovmod wrote: Edit: I guess the limitations are in the pre-configured algorithms, and the missing effects - they came later. 2500 or 2600.
"The K2000 and K2500 (without KDFX) have a built-in effects processor ..."
Ah, yes. I wasn't implying that it has NO effects, I was referring to the KDFX. There's more than enough to dive into as is, and in no way have I even touched the limitations. I just formulated myself clumsily. :hihi:

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Post by solitaryzen » Wed Jun 29, 2016 8:00 am

I have a K2500 which has been in mothballs for some years - you've reminded me that I must dig it out again. This was my primary sound making machine in the latter half of the 90's. An amazing instrument, I've created sounds with it that I couldn't imagine making with anything else. As mentioned above, the modulation possibilities are crazily deep. The envelopes alone are so far beyond any other envelope generators I've encountered.

Here's a piece made entirely with the K2500 (with sampling option obviously) from 1996 (all entirely sequenced on the K2500's sequencer without any multi-tracking):

https://soundcloud.com/zenparadox/urbania

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Post by razzmtazz266 » Wed Jun 29, 2016 9:54 am

would love to hear some of the waveshaping stuff
I too have been curious about this synth

thanks for dredging this oldy but a goody up!

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Post by Hovmod » Thu Jun 30, 2016 2:56 am

solitaryzen wrote:
Here's a piece made entirely with the K2500 (with sampling option obviously) from 1996 (all entirely sequenced on the K2500's sequencer without any multi-tracking):

https://soundcloud.com/zenparadox/urbania
This is great!
I have to get real friendly with that sequencer.
Also, now I want sampling option. :hihi:

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Post by Hovmod » Thu Jul 07, 2016 5:38 am

Annwn wrote:I'd be interested to hear what you come up with.

For all I hear about V.A.S.T being the bee's knees with limitless possibilities, I've never really heard them doing anything particularly interesting.

Maybe the interface inhibits in-depth exploration?
Heh. After fiddling with it for a week or two, my ruling is that the Kurzweil interface is absolutely brilliant. The possibilities are indeed endless, and the process of finding stuff down there in the menus is a bit daunting, but the interface itself, the gateway to all that limitless power, is just so very well thought out, with lots of clever solutions for both deep (DEEP!) exploration and performance. I'd love it if my iPhone was as intuitive (where is that setting for that nagging location service again? Nowhere near the app I'm using, that's for sure...)!

It will take some time before you hear what I will come up with, but the time goes into exploring and having my mind blown repeatedly (can I modulate the LFO rate with the sine of the mod wheel divided by the filter ASR and then tweak it with aftertouch? Sure!), not from learning how to use the menus.

In fact, I would say that in-depth exploration might inhibit output. I could get stuck in there having fun.

The user interface on this thing is the best I've ever seen. Maybe on anything.
Well, not as good as the MS-20, but you get my point.
Also, it sounds great. Filters and shapers take it to places I wasn't expecting from a digital WS, and what I was expecting (90's pop sounds, electric pianos, strings, classic synth emulations, drums etc) is very high quality indeed.

This will keep me busy for a while.

:nana:
Last edited by Hovmod on Thu Jul 07, 2016 5:44 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Hovmod
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Post by Hovmod » Thu Jul 07, 2016 5:40 am

Double post. My bad.

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Post by Annwn » Thu Jul 07, 2016 5:49 am

Awesome to hear about the interface! It's like in the rest of the world, if someone repeats some crap long enough, people will start believing it.

I think my university has a K2k gathering dust in a cupboard somewhere. It may be time to have an exploration. :)

Good luck with your quest.

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Post by Vacancy Of Disco » Thu Jul 07, 2016 9:34 am

Annwn wrote:I'd be interested to hear what you come up with.

For all I hear about V.A.S.T being the bee's knees with limitless possibilities, I've never really heard them doing anything particularly interesting.

Maybe the interface inhibits in-depth exploration?
Nine inch nails "downward spiral" album features a lot of k2000

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Post by Annwn » Thu Jul 07, 2016 6:37 pm

Vacancy Of Disco wrote:
Annwn wrote:I'd be interested to hear what you come up with.

For all I hear about V.A.S.T being the bee's knees with limitless possibilities, I've never really heard them doing anything particularly interesting.

Maybe the interface inhibits in-depth exploration?
Nine inch nails "downward spiral" album features a lot of k2000
But then that requires listening to NIN. :hide:
My wife would love an excuse for me to listen to her favourite album though.

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Post by bleeds_on_keys » Fri Jul 08, 2016 9:03 am

I borrowed one from a buddy for a few days while my Krome was in the shop.

Didn't use any of the V.A.S.T. stuff, but the keys on it felt BEAUTIFUL!

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Post by Vacancy Of Disco » Fri Jul 08, 2016 10:28 am

Annwn wrote:
Vacancy Of Disco wrote:
Annwn wrote:I'd be interested to hear what you come up with.

For all I hear about V.A.S.T being the bee's knees with limitless possibilities, I've never really heard them doing anything particularly interesting.

Maybe the interface inhibits in-depth exploration?
Nine inch nails "downward spiral" album features a lot of k2000
But then that requires listening to NIN. :hide:
My wife would love an excuse for me to listen to her favourite album though.
:smack: hahaha go earn some brownie points with your lady and listen to a fantastic album :tu:

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Post by nuromantix » Fri Jul 08, 2016 11:17 am

Might be easier/cheaper to just buy one with the sampling option inside rather than looking for just the sampling expansion separately.

Synthesis on the K2000 is very deep and can be interesting.
There are a couple of failings in my opinion:

envelopes - the control on the attack time is too coarse, the difference between 0 attack and the next lowest setting is quite big.
maybe you could do some kind of multiplication with a FUN or something to make it better but I've never managed it.

aliasing - you get all sorts of aliasing and clicks and stuff when you start using SHAPER and WRAP. can be cool but can be annoying.
it's quite easy to make simple FM patches with amazing dynamic control but hard to stop them having artifacts.

Track 5 on this release has lots of K2000 FM stuff in it.
http://www.juno.co.uk/products/dmx-krew ... 617246-01/


Another fun thing to try: additive using lots of layers of sinewaves and controlling them dynamically in different ways.

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Post by nuromantix » Fri Jul 08, 2016 11:19 am

This guy has interesting demos, I think he is a member here too…


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Post by Ranxerox » Sat Jul 09, 2016 4:32 am

nuromantix wrote:Might be easier/cheaper to just buy one with the sampling option inside rather than looking for just the sampling expansion separately.
The original SMP-K option isn't that expensive really, not that hard to find on eBay for less than £100 and it is user-installable.

I've been holding out for a K2600RS or K2661 with the sampling option (considerably rarer) in order to make use of Live mode, which isn't available on the earlier K2500/K2000 models.

Here's a demo a guy in Australia did of Live mode:

[video][/video]

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Post by jonne74 » Sat Jul 09, 2016 6:31 am

I always wanted one more filter block at the end of the more interesting algos. It's a K2000R. Ten outputs too.

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Post by Hovmod » Sat Jul 09, 2016 6:55 am

jonne74 wrote:I always wanted one more filter block at the end of the more interesting algos. It's a K2000R. Ten outputs too.
Yes, this seems to be a common complaint, and I've met that particular blind alley a couple of times now. Likely they just didn't expect the need. I guess the fixed algorithms is the one spot where the freedom and modularity of it breaks down.
I noticed the envelope thing as well, and I'd like one more decimal on LFO rate, for those slooooooooooow movements.

Thanks for good demos. I want Live Mode now. :hihi:

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Post by namshub » Sat Jul 09, 2016 7:29 am

Love K2000s... still use mine now, just for the wave shaping algos...
so sick.

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Post by abruzzi » Sat Jul 09, 2016 1:39 pm

The K2000 and K2500 are limited to layers being layers, so the complexity of what you can do to a single source sound is limited to what a single algorithm can provide. The K2600 series introduced triple mode which allows one layers output to cascade into the next layers input, for up to three layers on DSP on a single source. The PC3 upped the ante to up to 32 layers of cascading.

None the less you can still get some great sounds out. Of a single layer as well. The SHAPER DSP block is my all time favorite.

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