Behringer MiniMoog Clone

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thispoison
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Post by thispoison » Fri Aug 04, 2017 5:23 pm

SynthBaron wrote:When are they gonna dig up Bob's body and create the Minimoog Relic Edition, in which they pulverize his corpse and mix it into the injection molded plastic of the transistors? The elitist nitpickers will say it sounds better than any Moog ever made.
Fair point, but if they do, and it does, there's an equally vocal group of nitpickers who will explain why it doesn't. :sadbanana:
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Post by mmp » Fri Aug 04, 2017 5:24 pm

We'll have to wait for Uli to pass to make a fair comparison.
thispoison wrote:
SynthBaron wrote:When are they gonna dig up Bob's body and create the Minimoog Relic Edition, in which they pulverize his corpse and mix it into the injection molded plastic of the transistors? The elitist nitpickers will say it sounds better than any Moog ever made.
Fair point, but if they do, and it does, there's an equally vocal group of nitpickers who will explain why it doesn't. :sadbanana:

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mintmark
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Post by mintmark » Sat Aug 05, 2017 9:29 am

Well I think it sounds great... and I really don't see an ethical problem. What we have is another implementation of a successful design whose patents expired long ago... and that's exactly how the system is supposed to work. It's not like Behringer isn't contributng anything... we have it in a smaller form factor with a MIDI interface and who knows what other little features.

The system is supposed to encourage innovation, the inventor gets a monopoly for a time and in return they disclose the invention and we all get to build on it later. Before this people would try and keep inventions secret, spending loads of effort trying to obfuscate the design, and if they succeeded the invention would die with them, leaving us trying to reverse engineer the big secret. This way is supposed to be better for overall progress... anyone can try the things Moog didn't.

The unusual thing is that a piece of electronic design is not completely obsolete by the time the patents expire. How many people are queueing up to build VHS machines I wonder :)

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mmp
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Post by mmp » Sat Aug 05, 2017 10:08 am

Mintmark is right. When the patent is up, the design is fair game. That said, I do hope Moog can keep their company going for the long term.

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Post by graphixsounds » Sat Aug 05, 2017 10:43 am

whoever doesn't think it sounds the same is straight up tripping, never heard a clone that gets that close

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High Wolf
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Post by High Wolf » Sun Aug 06, 2017 5:37 am

Anyone knows why this is available for preorder in the US but not in the EU?

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umma gumma
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Post by umma gumma » Sun Aug 06, 2017 8:31 am

mintmark wrote:Well I think it sounds great... and I really don't see an ethical problem. What we have is another implementation of a successful design whose patents expired long ago... and that's exactly how the system is supposed to work. It's not like Behringer isn't contributng anything... we have it in a smaller form factor with a MIDI interface and who knows what other little features.

The system is supposed to encourage innovation, the inventor gets a monopoly for a time and in return they disclose the invention and we all get to build on it later. Before this people would try and keep inventions secret, spending loads of effort trying to obfuscate the design, and if they succeeded the invention would die with them, leaving us trying to reverse engineer the big secret. This way is supposed to be better for overall progress... anyone can try the things Moog didn't.

The unusual thing is that a piece of electronic design is not completely obsolete by the time the patents expire. How many people are queueing up to build VHS machines I wonder :)
this is a great post! agree 100%

that little thing sounds great IMO. I will keep my D, but will surely pick one up

hell you could buy 6 of the things and slave them all together....very interested in the CV options they have. would be cool to build a wall of them!

lol @VHS machines

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Post by Vast_Halo » Sun Aug 06, 2017 10:53 am

For whatever reason, the other demos I watched/heard were not at all convincing, but you can't argue with the Synthpro video. The Behringer design does seem to have captured all of the Mini's mojo.
I won't be springing for one of these as I already own an early-'70s Mini, but if the speculation is correct, and Behringer can bring the same attention to detail to bear on a recreation of the OB-Xa... now, that I would find impossible to resist.

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Post by kriskeyman » Tue Aug 08, 2017 8:12 pm

How many hp is this thing officially?

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Post by anselmi » Tue Aug 08, 2017 8:24 pm

umma gumma wrote:The system is supposed to encourage innovation
...and Behringer innovation is... :hmm: :despair: :confused:

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Post by Dr. Sketch-n-Etch » Tue Aug 08, 2017 9:27 pm

anselmi wrote:
umma gumma wrote:The system is supposed to encourage innovation
...and Behringer innovation is... :hmm: :despair: :confused:
...all in the realm of business; i.e., how to make a significant profit making musical instruments, something which eludes many of the other companies involved (most of which have disappeared without a trace).
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Post by kipervarg » Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:03 pm

Dr. Sketch-n-Etch wrote:
anselmi wrote:
umma gumma wrote:The system is supposed to encourage innovation
...and Behringer innovation is... :hmm: :despair: :confused:
...all in the realm of business; i.e., how to make a significant profit making musical instruments, something which eludes many of the other companies involved (most of which have disappeared without a trace).
Not sure that making money by copying designs rather than via innovation is a great thing to be proud of. It may be OK for business, but I'd like to reward companies that shoot for a higher goal. I'm not much of a capitalist.

I have a Minimoog and the AJH Minimod modules. I noticed that most Wigglers were fine with the Minimod approach to copying the Minimoog design. Why was that? I would guess the following:
1. AJH added modulation options where none previously existed.
2. AJH copied the early and rare RA Moog design of the model D and fixed the temperature related issues it had.
3. AJH added complementary modules to the line that did not exist.
4. They imbued the Minimod line with it's own personality and featureset while respecting the Minimoog original.

I don't see where Behringer has done the same. They've just copied the design and added some modern features, but it feels less than the sum of it's parts.

No soul. Beyond being affordable to someone who does not have the funds to buy a Minimoog or AJH synth, I don't see the appeal. I'd rather buy the SE-02 if I was starting out. At least they built a Minimoog-inspired clone that has been cross-bred with Roland with a decent sequencer and features that the Minimoog did not have.

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Post by kriskeyman » Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:57 pm

Very excited for this product. Always wanted a Minimoog but was never willing to pay the asking price. Props to Behringer for keeping it as close to the original as possible for much less $. :yay: Pre-order is in! :75:

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Post by mousegarden » Wed Aug 09, 2017 1:23 am

kipervarg wrote:
Dr. Sketch-n-Etch wrote:
anselmi wrote:
umma gumma wrote:The system is supposed to encourage innovation
...and Behringer innovation is... :hmm: :despair: :confused:
...all in the realm of business; i.e., how to make a significant profit making musical instruments, something which eludes many of the other companies involved (most of which have disappeared without a trace).
Not sure that making money by copying designs rather than via innovation is a great thing to be proud of. It may be OK for business, but I'd like to reward companies that shoot for a higher goal. I'm not much of a capitalist.

I have a Minimoog and the AJH Minimod modules. I noticed that most Wigglers were fine with the Minimod approach to copying the Minimoog design. Why was that? I would guess the following:
1. AJH added modulation options where none previously existed.
2. AJH copied the early and rare RA Moog design of the model D and fixed the temperature related issues it had.
3. AJH added complementary modules to the line that did not exist.
4. They imbued the Minimod line with it's own personality and featureset while respecting the Minimoog original.

I don't see where Behringer has done the same. They've just copied the design and added some modern features, but it feels less than the sum of it's parts.

No soul. Beyond being affordable to someone who does not have the funds to buy a Minimoog or AJH synth, I don't see the appeal. I'd rather buy the SE-02 if I was starting out. At least they built a Minimoog-inspired clone that has been cross-bred with Roland with a decent sequencer and features that the Minimoog did not have.
I checked out the SE-02, it still doesn't sound right to me, still too "fizzy" not weighty enough. However, I'm going to buy some AJH modules for a Moog style case, and to my ears they sound fine, I've no issues with them whatsoever, there's nothing obviously wrong with the sound, unlike these clones.
I think AJH have done an admirable job, and it's the closest you're going to get to the Moog sound without actually buying a Moog.

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umma gumma
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Post by umma gumma » Wed Aug 09, 2017 4:25 pm

ok that quote up there is not from me, it's from MINTMARK. I was quoting him in my post, and for some reason I am attributed to his remarks ( which I do agree with )

there are a lot of people who cannot afford a limited edition, handmade model D. I also suspect that the biggest profit via volume is made in the <$1,000 gear market. or even less. That is a huge opportunity for *someone*

if Behringer hadn't done it, I'm positive someone else would have.

Heck, other people have been cloning Moog designs for years. I don't hear AJH, .COM, etc people taking any flack. If some individual came up with a $299 kit to build your own D clone, would people react the same as this?

we must give Uli credit for putting his money where his mouth is, and actually building these. If they sound as good as that demo, that is impressive. kudos to the engineers and designers who I'm sure spent a lot of time on it.

credit must also be given to Moog, for seeing the demand for a RI and building it to the exacting standards they did....by hand, in the USA. Obviously the way they built it was much more expensive than if they'd priced everything as cheaply as possible, and built it overseas

where does this leave us? I don't know. We live in an era where manufacturing and business is sent away, along with a lot of money that could be better if we kept it stimulating our local economies.

but people will keep buying cheap stuff, regardless. Some by choice, some because they have no other choice.

I hope Moog continues on with a strong business and lots of new products. I am a Moog enthusiast, and admire their stuff

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Post by mousegarden » Wed Aug 09, 2017 4:42 pm

Come on, let's face it, old gits like me go on about authenticity, fine, but the reality is that some young kid with real talent couldn't given a damn about that. All they want is something that gives them a generic sound, you can get a "Moog type sound" out of any synth on the market today, the presets are full of them. In the context of a typical pop mix no one is going to know the difference, it's only old anoraks like us that actually give a damn, and we are the ones who Moog sell reissues to, and the poorer people, who Behringer aim at.

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Post by SynthBaron » Wed Aug 09, 2017 4:49 pm

I bet the Behringer doesn't have spiral waveforms.

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Post by mousegarden » Wed Aug 09, 2017 5:08 pm

SynthBaron wrote:I bet the Behringer doesn't have spiral waveforms.
It certainly doesn't, how can anything pretend to be a "real Moog" and not have spiral waveforms? You see, this is what's wrong with people like Behringer, their sense of history, and research is sadly lacking.

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Post by namshub » Wed Aug 09, 2017 5:11 pm

If is was a povo artist wanting a moog, i'd do it.
Second hand prices for analog gear is stoopid. these will be silly cheap second hand!
When i buy i record i don't question whether they have a real moog or clone...
and seeing its a behringer - the repair business will be sustained:)

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Post by mousegarden » Wed Aug 09, 2017 5:15 pm

namshub wrote: When i buy i record i don't question whether they have a real moog or clone...
:tu:

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Post by Bigassdroids » Thu Aug 10, 2017 12:16 am

Controversy aside... it lives. Sweetwater's Daniel Fisher, demo:


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Post by kipervarg » Thu Aug 10, 2017 2:19 am

Bigassdroids wrote:Controversy aside... it lives. Sweetwater's Daniel Fisher, demo:

I just listened to the whole thing. It's missing something. The fizz and presence is not there. It's how I felt listening to the Voyager when it first came out. The SE02 sounds better to me.

I appreciate that how things sound is so subjective but I don't hear the same magic in this thing as the original, reissue or AJH minimod line.

It's close but further from the sound than even the Voyager. I would recommend someone searching for the Minimoog magic to take a look at the AJH synth VCO and VCF. They have it and are theoretically cheap enough to get that sound without dropping a giant brick on a reissue Minimoog.

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Post by kipervarg » Thu Aug 10, 2017 2:20 am

SEO2 sounds like it has more personality. For reference hear this:

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Post by mousegarden » Thu Aug 10, 2017 2:36 am

kipervarg wrote:
Bigassdroids wrote:Controversy aside... it lives. Sweetwater's Daniel Fisher, demo:

I just listened to the whole thing. It's missing something. The fizz and presence is not there. It's how I felt listening to the Voyager when it first came out. The SE02 sounds better to me.

I appreciate that how things sound is so subjective but I don't hear the same magic in this thing as the original, reissue or AJH minimod line.

It's close but further from the sound than even the Voyager. I would recommend someone searching for the Minimoog magic to take a look at the AJH synth VCO and VCF. They have it and are theoretically cheap enough to get that sound without dropping a giant brick on a reissue Minimoog.
I was happy with my Voyager, it had that magic ingredient, and the AJH modules are close enough, very good indeed, 2 VCO's and a filter are still a very reasonable price.

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Post by kipervarg » Thu Aug 10, 2017 2:48 am

mousegarden wrote:
kipervarg wrote:
Bigassdroids wrote:Controversy aside... it lives. Sweetwater's Daniel Fisher, demo:

I just listened to the whole thing. It's missing something. The fizz and presence is not there. It's how I felt listening to the Voyager when it first came out. The SE02 sounds better to me.

I appreciate that how things sound is so subjective but I don't hear the same magic in this thing as the original, reissue or AJH minimod line.

It's close but further from the sound than even the Voyager. I would recommend someone searching for the Minimoog magic to take a look at the AJH synth VCO and VCF. They have it and are theoretically cheap enough to get that sound without dropping a giant brick on a reissue Minimoog.
I was happy with my Voyager, it had that magic ingredient, and the AJH modules are close enough, very good indeed, 2 VCO's and a filter are still a very reasonable price.
To each his or her own. I was so excited about the Voyager after having lusted for a Minimoog for so long. I purchased it, had it for about a month and ended up selling mine because I found it lacking that special something. Felt awful about it because it had so many other nice features and as a general synth it sounded really good.

I agree about the AJH modules. So impressed with them and when you enable the overdrive circuit on the VCO and VCF they sound dead on. They're alive.

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