Behringer MiniMoog Clone

Any music gear discussions that don't fit into one of the other forums.

Moderators: Joe., lisa, luketeaford, Kent

Post Reply
Maffez
Learning to Wiggle
Posts: 43
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:06 am
Location: Austria

Post by Maffez » Sun Jan 20, 2019 12:57 pm

Hey, I post this here since reading your posts gave me the push to finally sit down and do it - more extensive writeup on gs.

Paraphonic mod is done - very easy to accomplish and nondestructive/ just a matter of three wires and resistors to trimpot pins.

first sound examples: https://soundcloud.com/uibkmedan/paraboog

I'm super stoked. :)

Visual guide attached
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Videographics
Common Wiggler
Posts: 162
Joined: Fri May 26, 2017 4:25 pm
Location: California

Post by Videographics » Sun Jan 20, 2019 1:05 pm

Maffez wrote:Hey, I post this here since reading your posts gave me the push to finally sit down and do it - more extensive writeup on gs.

Paraphonic mod is done - very easy to accomplish and nondestructive/ just a matter of three wires and resistors to trimpot pins.

first sound examples: https://soundcloud.com/uibkmedan/paraboog

I'm super stoked. :)

Visual guide attached
Yea! :yay: Thank you SO much! I think you’re not the only one who’s super stoked. :hyper: :hail: Maffez

AnneL
Learning to Wiggle
Posts: 6
Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2018 11:19 am
Location: London

Get one while you can?

Post by AnneL » Mon Jan 21, 2019 5:48 am

Really looking forward to add this to my studio but can’t quite imagine that Moog is going to let this go by endlessly. Yes, the patent is in the public domain but they are basing the sales on Moog’s rep... really can’t imagine this going on without a lawsuit!

User avatar
Shledge
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 2980
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 5:47 pm
Location: UK

Post by Shledge » Mon Jan 21, 2019 8:38 am

They haven't done anything so far. :despair:

Maffez - would each individual oscillator track properly with the mod?

Maffez
Learning to Wiggle
Posts: 43
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:06 am
Location: Austria

Post by Maffez » Mon Jan 21, 2019 11:23 am

Shledge wrote:They haven't done anything so far. :despair:

Maffez - would each individual oscillator track properly with the mod?
Yes, they do. 52k1 resistors to those pins give you proper tracking/scaling of 1v/oct. Checked for each vco with a tuner over 2 octaves. Also, since both trimmers are post cv summing, calibration can be done (as some units seemed to need a bit of that)

The detune woblyness you hear sometimes in this file (https://soundcloud.com/uibkmedan/parabo ... -577835379) comes from the mod bus lfo as I wanted to demonstrate that that one still works in addition (as do the octave select switches and the detune pots of vco 2 and 3). So in the end of the day, since this is simple cv summing, you could ad several jacks with 51k1 resistors for further lfos/fm/etc.

Maffez
Learning to Wiggle
Posts: 43
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:06 am
Location: Austria

Post by Maffez » Mon Jan 21, 2019 1:57 pm

btw a vid of the paraboog


Videographics
Common Wiggler
Posts: 162
Joined: Fri May 26, 2017 4:25 pm
Location: California

Post by Videographics » Mon Jan 21, 2019 4:24 pm

AnneL wrote:really can’t imagine this going on without a lawsuit!
I’m no lawyer but I can only imagine Behringer fully evaluated the legal risk before proceeding with a major product like the Boog. Once a design is in the public domain, there’s not much to be done about anyone putting it to use. (I imagine Moog also saw this coming and chose not to try to compete directly — expecting, hoping, or praying Behringer would cut corners and/or wouldn’t be able to pull it off as well as they did.) You can trademark a brand, but you can’t patent a reputation. The value of a brand or a reputation is what can be realized in addition to a product’s intrinsic value in the current marketplace. I’m really curious about economics of all this so I’d like to ask this thread a few hypothetical questions:

1) If Moog released a product identical to the Boog in every way, how much more would you pay to have it come from Moog (with a Moog label) instead of Behringer?

2) If Moog released a product identical to the Boog in every way, except added to it every imaginable patch point. How much would be willing to pay for it?

3) If Behringer released a full sized Model D clone that was identical (wood and all) to Moog’s Minimoog Model D, how much would you be willing to pay for it?

I believe it remains in Moog’s interest to continue to innovate and embrace the broader market as they have with their Eurorack releases. Innovation is a key part of Moog’s origin story and there are some seriously creative folks over there! I also hope they don’t shy away from trying to be more competitive on price. (As we’re seeing with the Boog, Moog can’t count on claiming the knockoffs are all technically inferior.) With lower prices for their more mainstream products Moog can certainly sell more and still be able to charge a fortune for their handmade monsters in that limited market. Why not a genuine Moog for everyone? And doing this may be essential to ensuring we can continue to buy genuine Moog products for years to come. No one wants to see some crap merchant slapping Moog labels on total junk after buying out the brand at auction. (Yikes!)

User avatar
Franktree
Common Wiggler
Posts: 189
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2018 11:06 pm

Post by Franktree » Mon Jan 21, 2019 5:09 pm

Yes, I suspect if Moog was going to sue, they would have long ago. I suspect that's also why Behringer makes it without a keyboard.

User avatar
Fallen_lassen
Wiggling with Experience
Posts: 269
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2013 7:35 am
Location: Zaandoom

Post by Fallen_lassen » Mon Jan 21, 2019 6:57 pm

And whoever wants a Moog gets a Moog. And for those who just want a cheap knockoff there is the boog. No fear at Moog i guess so why sue the B?
imo

evilspock
Common Wiggler
Posts: 65
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2015 2:55 pm

Post by evilspock » Tue Jan 22, 2019 1:46 pm

IANABF (I am not a Behringer fanboy)

While Moog was willing to release synths like the Mother 32 and DFAM in module/Eurorack format, they refused to do so with the Minimoog. I have no idea why. Uli stepped in and filled a void in the market by doing so. I am most grateful for this, as I would not own a Minimoog of any kind if he hadn't. Sounds f**king great. At $240 shipped brand new from Musician's Friend, even more amazing.

Same situation for Dave Smith and Pro One. No idea why he refuses. The Toraiz AS-1 is not the same. I will also be purchasing the Behringer Pro One clone when it comes to market.

User avatar
lilakmonoke
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 2755
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2010 6:18 am
Location: berlin

Post by lilakmonoke » Tue Jan 22, 2019 3:31 pm

they refused to do so with the Minimoog. I have no idea why.
same reason why ems vcs3 are still made in spartanite suitcases from the 60s and cost 6k - which then go on ebay for 16k because of the orginals "rarity". its all BS because a vcs3 is no more complicated electronics than a minimoog.

i dont think behringer is afraid of lawsuits they have a lot of money for lawyers. i hope they also copy the vcs3 because ems-rehberg is know for lawsuiting anybody who steps on its holy grounds, they will lose ...

this is exactly why ulli B. is my hero, he strips away all the bs around analog sound sources. you will see that also when his euro modules for 40-90$ come out, you are being milked dearly at the moment by most module producers.

its nor even about the price it is also about the quality of the design of the circuits. "hello, here is my new module. it can do 1000 dogfart sounds for 299.-" will not work any more ... :-)
Paraphonic mod is done - very easy to accomplish
maffez you are a hero! i was thinking exactly that, most cv mods are not complicated ... a paraphonic moog is a totally new dimension.

Videographics
Common Wiggler
Posts: 162
Joined: Fri May 26, 2017 4:25 pm
Location: California

Post by Videographics » Tue Jan 22, 2019 8:10 pm

lilakmonoke wrote:it can do 1000 dogfart sounds for 299
Yeah, but for some, 30¢ per dogfart sound might look like a really good deal. And if the module has the right collection of cv ins and maybe a few extraneous circuits (VCAs, filters, folders, logic, comparators, etc., mainly to obscure what it's actually doing) you might be looking at UNLIMITED DOGFART SOUNDS! :hyper: Then all the dogfart aficionados will go crazy for it at any price — even more so if the marketing materials read like bad existential philosophy, minimalist poetry, some sort of lifestyle manifesto, or a repair manual for an alien spacecraft. You gotta admit Behringer would be really bad at satisfying customers who are really into modules like that.

User avatar
1986Bowler
Common Wiggler
Posts: 110
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2018 9:53 pm
Location: Canada

Post by 1986Bowler » Thu Feb 07, 2019 10:25 pm

I ended up getting one. It's fine for what it is- no issues thus far, and fun to use.
As others have said, I am glad Uli is giving all a chance to experience in a way the synths of yesteryear to mess around with.

User avatar
naos
Common Wiggler
Posts: 136
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2018 2:48 am
Location: france

Post by naos » Mon Feb 18, 2019 7:47 am

1986Bowler wrote:I ended up getting one. It's fine for what it is- no issues thus far, and fun to use.
As others have said, I am glad Uli is giving all a chance to experience in a way the synths of yesteryear to mess around with.
Same here. One thing that bothers me a lot though (other than the relative ugliness of the object) is that it only makes sounds that I've heard a million times, including when playing the filter in self-oscillation, etc. On the other hand, no matter what distorted crap bass sound you patch in 5 seconds, it will sound incredibly GOOD and musical. So I guess it's more a matter of getting it as a usable, basic instrument like a guitar or a bass, than as some exciting synthesis magic box with unexpected results. Still haven't decided yet if I'll make sub-Klaus Schultze rip offs for the rest of my life, or sell the unit. In the meantime I'm getting a 0-coast to compare.

User avatar
Shledge
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 2980
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 5:47 pm
Location: UK

Post by Shledge » Mon Feb 18, 2019 8:47 am

lilakmonoke wrote: this is exactly why ulli B. is my hero, he strips away all the bs around analog sound sources. you will see that also when his euro modules for 40-90$ come out, you are being milked dearly at the moment by most module producers.
Behringer can do it cheaply because it has massive factories with full control. The more you can produce at once = lower prices.

Module manufacturers are often just small teams or even one-man bands, with limited runs or quantities. The money is mainly on helping to just pay the bills rather than to make any meaningful profit.

You need to look into supply/demand and basic economics.

User avatar
Dr. Sketch-n-Etch
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 7670
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:46 pm
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada

Post by Dr. Sketch-n-Etch » Mon Feb 18, 2019 1:34 pm

Moog didn't sue Behringer because such a lawsuit would have no merit. Behringer hasn't broken any laws or infringed any copyrights. What would they sue about, the color of the switch caps? The font of the panel headings?

Also, if Moog did decide to sue, Behringer is a much larger company than Moog. Behringer has 3500 employees. In 2015, Moog had 62 employees. Behringer could tie them up in court in a way that would bankrupt Moog, and Behringer would hardly feel it. Plus, Behringer is essentially a Chinese company, so fighting them in court is probably futile.

It's a cold, hard world out there, and market cap matters.
Freedom is wasted on the Free

Man-In-A-Suitcase

Post by Man-In-A-Suitcase » Mon Feb 18, 2019 2:06 pm

lilakmonoke wrote:i hope they also copy the vcs3 because ems-rehberg is know for lawsuiting anybody who steps on its holy grounds, they will lose ...
Ludwig Rehberg doesn't make any EMS equipment (VCS3/Synthi-A/Vocoders etc), he only services or restores them. The only thing that was made was the rather dated and old Synthi-AVS VST.

Audiohub
Common Wiggler
Posts: 118
Joined: Wed May 07, 2014 1:22 pm

Post by Audiohub » Mon Feb 18, 2019 4:26 pm

I'm really enjoying mine, since my original 1974 Mini is on loan to friends for a while.
I've modded mine already, adding PWM to it with an attenuverter knob to control the amount of modulation, and a small toggle to select whether the modulation source is pre or post mod wheel. Sounds great, and really extends the (already beautiful) voice capabilities.
Next I'm considering adding S/H, with the source being either the red noise, or the mix at the modulation buss.
It's the perfect companion for the Moog M32.
Visit my synth blog...Moogs and more!
www.synthguy.com

User avatar
lilakmonoke
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 2755
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2010 6:18 am
Location: berlin

Post by lilakmonoke » Mon Feb 18, 2019 8:34 pm

Next I'm considering adding S/H, with the source being either the red noise, or the mix at the modulation buss.
thats a good idea, make sure to post the schematics! im currently figuring out mods for the vcf, mainly 1/2/3 pole outputs and a bass drop compensation. also full control over keyboard control cv would be great, the two buttons dont do it if you do precision sequencing.

User avatar
kinkycables
Common Wiggler
Posts: 153
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2018 8:29 am

Post by kinkycables » Thu Feb 21, 2019 7:37 pm

Did they raise they price on these? :mad:

I don’t need one and am more than satisfied with the moog app, but can’t help wanting to pick one up.

User avatar
Stüssy
Learning to Wiggle
Posts: 27
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2018 1:02 am
Location: L.A. CA

Post by Stüssy » Thu Feb 21, 2019 8:26 pm

kinkycables wrote:Did they raise the price on these? :mad:

I don’t need one and am more than satisfied with the Moog app, but can’t help wanting to pick one up.
Just picked one up over the weekend at GC for $220 and change, so if anything the price seems to have gone down.
:despair:
https://www.modulargrid.net/e/racks/view/986690
Rumors of my death are greatly exaggerated!

User avatar
kinkycables
Common Wiggler
Posts: 153
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2018 8:29 am

Post by kinkycables » Thu Feb 21, 2019 8:27 pm

Stüssy wrote:
kinkycables wrote:Did they raise the price on these? :mad:

I don’t need one and am more than satisfied with the Moog app, but can’t help wanting to pick one up.
Just picked one up over the weekend at GC for $220 and change, so if anything the price seems to have gone down.
:despair:
Pres day sale? Website is listing them at the now standard $329

User avatar
Stüssy
Learning to Wiggle
Posts: 27
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2018 1:02 am
Location: L.A. CA

Post by Stüssy » Thu Feb 21, 2019 8:45 pm

kinkycables wrote:
Stüssy wrote:
kinkycables wrote:Did they raise the price on these? :mad:

I don’t need one and am more than satisfied with the Moog app, but can’t help wanting to pick one up.
Just picked one up over the weekend at GC for $220 and change, so if anything the price seems to have gone down.
:despair:
Pres day sale? Website is listing them at the now standard $329
Just walk in... The website does not reflect in-store sales prices. I believe the walk in price is $249 right now, and you can always ask for 10 or more % based on previous sales pricing.
https://www.modulargrid.net/e/racks/view/986690
Rumors of my death are greatly exaggerated!

Yodhan
Common Wiggler
Posts: 161
Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2015 6:57 pm
Location: Grand Rapids, MI

Post by Yodhan » Sat Feb 23, 2019 9:25 pm

I got mine for $250 about 3 weeks ago at GC. I went in there a few days ago and they still had that pricing.
My rig: https://www.modulargrid.net/e/racks/view/376480
Behringer Neutron, Behringer Model D, Arturia Microbrute
Tascam 424mkii
Reason for effects and recording

Funch

Re: Get one while you can?

Post by Funch » Fri Mar 01, 2019 12:39 pm

AnneL wrote:Really looking forward to add this to my studio but can’t quite imagine that Moog is going to let this go by endlessly. Yes, the patent is in the public domain but they are basing the sales on Moog’s rep... really can’t imagine this going on without a lawsuit!
I purchased a Behringer Model D before that company decided to threaten law suits on people for expressing free-speech. I don't think Moog would want to get involved with that mess of a company.


Instead of purchasing another Behringer product, was looking at the neutron, I bought a moog mother 32. Glad I did.



http://cdm.link/2018/06/behringer-threa ... a-copycat/

And this:

http://cdm.link/2018/06/behringer-have- ... efamation/

"MUSIC TECH TECHBehringer tried to sue Dave Smith Instruments, forum posters
Peter Kirn - June 19, 2018 10 Comments
In addition to sending a cease-and-desist letter to a popular Chinese music gear site, court filings reveal Behringer tried to sue rival manufacturer Dave Smith Instruments – and unnamed GearSlutz users. And they lost."

Post Reply

Return to “General Gear”