behringer teases...4-note poly Model-D???

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Post by 3hands » Mon Dec 02, 2019 8:55 pm

Sorry.. that was meant to be taken with a pinch of salt! Bloody internet and it’s inability to convey subtle emotions!!!

I really will need to try this thing! I may actually buy my first Behringer synth!!!
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Post by trentpmcd » Mon Dec 02, 2019 9:06 pm

anselmi wrote:
3hands wrote:So wait... does it have unison mode? Because that would be fantastic!
:eek: you are jocking, right?

of course it has unison! also 2-note duophonic (with 2 oscillators) and of course the paraphonic one
Uhm, no. Unison mode is you play one note, you get it with four osc. You play two notes and each note has two osc. You play three or four notes, they each get one, three and four notes, each note gets one osc. It is the same function and name as the Matriarch uses.

Check out this video - by far the best description on what this synth actually does.
[video][/video]

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Post by anselmi » Mon Dec 02, 2019 9:57 pm

trentpmcd wrote:
anselmi wrote:
3hands wrote:So wait... does it have unison mode? Because that would be fantastic!
:eek: you are jocking, right?

of course it has unison! also 2-note duophonic (with 2 oscillators) and of course the paraphonic one
Uhm, no. Unison mode is you play one note, you get it with four osc. You play two notes and each note has two osc. You play three or four notes, they each get one, three and four notes, each note gets one osc. It is the same function and name as the Matriarch uses.

Check out this video - by far the best description on what this synth actually does.
[video][/video]
It should be some kind of Moog propietary jargon, because "unison" in most synths means just "use several/all voices to play one note" and it´s not "dynamic allocated" (or whatever it called) like in the Matriarch
:despair:

More than "unison" what you described is a kind of "dynamic paraphonic assignment", that is present in the Sub-37 too when you engage the "duo" mode

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Post by 3hands » Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:41 pm

Hmm....

Which is it?

I’m trying to deep dive this aspect of it, and I’m not getting much!
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Post by Funch » Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:33 pm

3hands wrote: I really will need to try this thing! I may actually buy my first Behringer synth!!!
Sweetwater is taking preorders, but I would advise against it. I'd buy one but I know I'd be just be getting nickel and dimed on cheap gear.

300 neutron
300 model D
700 para D=1300. Almost to the price of a more versatile moog matriarch without the Behringer Baggage. The moog will most likely sell well on the used market for a long time. The Behringer not so much if its working.

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And for Sandy. I was trying to discuss this issue below with you via PM. Perhaps the mods need to enforce a no name calling policy between members. Pushing back on Behringer's unethical business practices is something altogether different.

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Post by numan7 » Tue Dec 03, 2019 2:24 am

it might be a little pricey, but i'd bet that a matriarch paired together with a poly-d would make a very, very versatile and awesome sounding instrument combination (given their significant similarities and differences).

in my current situation i doubt i'll have space for or will be able to afford purchasing either unit, but i do like how they sound!
:cat:


cheers

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Post by Blairio » Tue Dec 03, 2019 3:38 am

I don't really have a dog in this race, as my only Berhinger product is a modest pair of powered monitors (MS16s from memory). They work fine.

But from where I'm sitting, Behringer bashing = virtue signalling, which is getting tedious.

What would be interesting however is a comparison of the features of the poly/para D, versus the Matriarch, followed by a series of sonic comparisons where the source of each is not revealed for a number of days. That way folk can decide on their favourite based on the sound only, unencumbered by the baggage that seems inexorably drawn into any thread featuring these two manufacturers.

I don't think the result will be cut and dried.

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Post by Fallen_lassen » Tue Dec 03, 2019 4:53 am

With the Poly D/para D. A Moog sub37 is poly now? :miley:
you gotta love marketing.

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Post by trentpmcd » Tue Dec 03, 2019 7:57 am

anselmi wrote:
It should be some kind of Moog propietary jargon, because "unison" in most synths means just "use several/all voices to play one note" and it´s not "dynamic allocated" (or whatever it called) like in the Matriarch
:despair:

More than "unison" what you described is a kind of "dynamic paraphonic assignment", that is present in the Sub-37 too when you engage the "duo" mode
The "mono/unison/poly" comes form the Korg Mony/Poly from the 80s, which the idea of this was taken from (according to some of the reviews). Since the Matriarch uses it, I assume it is industry standard. It is also from the Korg that they have the misnamed "poly" instead of "para".

I really like it, but the more I look, the more I think I'll save my pennies for a Matriarch - every time I think "I wish it..." I discover the Matriarch already does it. Of course, I just saw that the Korg Prologue is selling for $800, so maybe for almost the same price...

From my take - this is a "super Boog" - the same synth engine as the "original" (copy ;) ) with an added VCO (identical to VCO 2 on the "original") in a larger package (I am a 5U guy, so like big nobs) and a keyboard. The mono/unison/poly (para) is kind of icing on the cake. The effects? Without user control over mix on the chorus, I would never use it. Sequencer? I guess OK. But still, it is a four osc version of their mini-clone.

I think when they did the upgrade they should have added more (synch? pwm on the new osc? ring mod?) but it is what it is. It does sound great, but has the same limitations of the original (and the "original" ;) )

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Post by AutomaticGainsay » Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:16 am

Fallen_lassen wrote:With the Poly D/para D. A Moog sub37 is poly now? :miley:
you gotta love marketing.
Moog specifically, and inconsistent with the usage and definition of the term at the time, used "paraphonic" because they were worried that users who were unfamiliar with the traditional application of the term "duophonic" (which originally did not designate articulation, and mostly described two-note single-articulation) would be mad that the two notes weren't individually-articulated.

It was an understandable move, but it might have been better to come up with a new name than further blur and confuse the relatively-consistent-up-to-that-point term "paraphonic."

So, no. Moog's usage in this one instance is not indicative of the most common application of the term.
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Post by Fallen_lassen » Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:53 am

opinions are like .... :mrgreen:
So deepmind is a true monophonic :bang:

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Post by trentpmcd » Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:30 am

Blairio wrote:
What would be interesting however is a comparison of the features of the poly/para D, versus the Matriarch, followed by a series of sonic comparisons where the source of each is not revealed for a number of days. That way folk can decide on their favourite based on the sound only, unencumbered by the baggage that seems inexorably drawn into any thread featuring these two manufacturers.

I don't think the result will be cut and dried.
Some of the differences that I see - Matriarch has pwm, a flexible synch and a way to do ring mod. There are two LFOs as opposed to one, with the primary LFO being very flexible and with a loopable envelope being able to act like a flexible LFO. The PolyD uses the limited minimoog envelopes while the Matriarch envelopes are very flexible. The Matriarch has the duel filters, which are cool, and I think the duel delay is much better thought out and flexible than the distortion and two choruses of the PolyD. A huge thing, for me at least, is all of the patch points and extras. I love my modular, and there are so many great things you can do with it - watching experts use the Matriarch, it seems like all of that is available here.

There may be other differences, those are just what I see that are important to me personally.

Don't get me wrong, I do like the PolyD and understand it is less than 1/2 the price of the Matriarch. I just wish Behringer would have taken a little more time with it and improved the basic synth engine, perhaps allowing VCO 3 to do pwm and/or synch and other things. Also, a mix nob on the chorus would be a huge plus - I'd rather have one chorus with the ability to tweak it than two that are uncontrollable.

Now you have an interesting synth with a great sound based on original mini - they could have had a great synth with an even more flexible sound based on the original mini and for not too much more $ than it is currently.

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Post by ludotex » Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:32 am

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Post by Funch » Tue Dec 03, 2019 4:43 pm

="Blairio"

But from where I'm sitting, Behringer bashing = virtue signalling, which is getting tedious.
.
its not as bad as it used to be here at muff.

I'm was on the fence as to how much I'm willing to support unethical business practices. In order words at what price point that benefits me am I willing to overlook Behringer's business practices.

Now I see that saving for a quality product with more features is worth waiting for as opposed to instant gratification on a cheaply-made inexpensive product that will nickel-and-dime you in the long run.


But because I or anyone questions Behringer's business practices or have some playful fun, like Sir Ruff and I were doing at the beginning of this thread, I don't appreciate being called a troll.

Another thread here ended by a mod calling me antisocial and was then locked and I now am biased towards him. Certainly not good practice for building community.

To me, name calling is just the same type of internet bullying behavior that I've encountered on many web site, including lines, and it needs to stop.

People have the right to express an opinion, but that right stops when a member's charector is being defamed by another member.

So to me, that member to member conduct is the tedious part that you refer to as long as the Behringer push back is focused on ethics and not political speak.

Imo, after seeing the final product, Behringer crossed a line that others saw when the Model D was released.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.factma ... lones/amp/


“If Moog were to approach me I would say they may well have a case in passing off because it’s their reputation that is still existent. Behringer are effectively leveraging Moog’s reputation to promote their own products. It’s not quite as clear cut as Behringer are setting it out, and I think that it’s probably Behringer’s size that would intimidate the opposition, not the strength of their case.”

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Post by Blairio » Tue Dec 03, 2019 5:48 pm

Somewhere along the line we lost sight of the fact that instruments (even fine ones) are tools. Their value is in what they can help achieve - ideally good and sometimes great music.

You buy the quality of tool that you can afford (as a hobbyist) or justify (as a professional. Quality is important if you intend to earn a long term living by something. Maybe the appearance of the thing makes for better stage presence. Playability comes into it as well. There may be other factors, but if you set fetishistic collecting to one side, not that many.

If you you don't like a vendor's product, don't buy it. It is as simple as that.

And remember, the next generation of guitarists are not going to cut their teeth on 63' Telecasters, and genuine gold-top Les Paul's. They will start out on far eastern 'cheap as chips' rip-offs. Just as the next generation of synth players won't start out on CS80's, OBX's, PPG2.3's and the like. They will use what is affordable.

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Post by 3hands » Tue Dec 03, 2019 5:48 pm

Funch wrote:
="Blairio"

But from where I'm sitting, Behringer bashing = virtue signalling, which is getting tedious.
.
its not as bad as it used to be here at muff.

I'm was on the fence as to how much I'm willing to support unethical business practices. In order words at what price point that benefits me am I willing to overlook Behringer's business practices.

Now I see that saving for a quality product with more features is worth waiting for as opposed to instant gratification on a cheaply-made inexpensive product that will nickel-and-dime you in the long run.


But because I or anyone questions Behringer's business practices or have some playful fun, like Sir Ruff and I were doing at the beginning of this thread, I don't appreciate being called a troll.

Another thread here ended by a mod calling me antisocial and was then locked and I now am biased towards him. Certainly not good practice for building community.

To me, name calling is just the same type of internet bullying behavior that I've encountered on many web site, including lines, and it needs to stop.

People have the right to express an opinion, but that right stops when a member's charector is being defamed by another member.

Says the guy that called me, and I quote, “ a fucking fanboy”.

I would appreciate you PM those of us who you have an issue with, instead of continually tell people that you’re the victim.

Thanks.
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Post by bliss000 » Thu Dec 05, 2019 12:50 pm

Uli Behringer stated 10,000 units of the Poly D sold already!

[video][/video]

@ 11:10 - love that different waveform para sound. Might pick one up second hand for that, or maybe a PerFOURmer mk1 . . .

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Post by 3hands » Thu Dec 05, 2019 8:57 pm

Oh man... that sound!!! Almost worth the money specifically for that!!!
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Post by DMR » Thu Dec 05, 2019 11:25 pm

People try to defend Behringer by saying they are bringing affordable instruments to the masses, as if there were not already affordable hardware and software synths available.

The issue with Behringer is not that their products are inexpensive, but that their business model is to save on design costs by ripping off other, smaller companies. For just the most recent example see their Wasp clone which obviously takes from the Jasper synth discussed on this forum, without any acknowledgment or attribution.

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Post by anselmi » Fri Dec 06, 2019 12:37 am

DMR wrote:People try to defend Behringer by saying they are bringing affordable instruments to the masses, as if there were not already affordable hardware and software synths available.
yep, this is true
you can buy a Korg Monologue or the Uno for less than a MS-1, and both are better featured synth (if you don´t count the Uno´s lack of keyboard)
The issue with Behringer is not that their products are inexpensive, but that their business model is to save on design costs by ripping off other, smaller companies. For just the most recent example see their Wasp clone which obviously takes from the Jasper synth discussed on this forum, without any acknowledgment or attribution.
well, I think they don´t discriminate too much between small or big companies...Roland and Korg are not small synth manufacturers and Behringer hit them both with clones that compite directly with actual products like the Odyssey, K2 or all the analog equivalents to the boutiques

the history would be much different if Behringer was enter the market with a 100% propietary design that sports their logo on the front panel. This way it was really hard for them to break their stigma of a cheapo company. Instead they attacked the most significant synth icons, releasing clones at a bargain prices and therefore winning the people´s hearts as some kind of Prometheus or Robin Hood.

A lot of people loved this, other just think that other companies like Roland got enough time and opportunities to release this very products with their brand on them, but they never listened to customers. I´m in this group for sure. The only stuff they did well was to team up with Malekko to bring the old system-100m designs to eurorack, and I jumped on it in no time. Sadly Behringer will release the same stuff for about 1/3 of what I paid, so now I´m feel ripped by Roland

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Post by dubonaire » Fri Dec 06, 2019 3:00 am

anselmi wrote:
DMR wrote:People try to defend Behringer by saying they are bringing affordable instruments to the masses, as if there were not already affordable hardware and software synths available.
yep, this is true
you can buy a Korg Monologue or the Uno for less than a MS-1, and both are better featured synth (if you don´t count the Uno´s lack of keyboard)
The issue with Behringer is not that their products are inexpensive, but that their business model is to save on design costs by ripping off other, smaller companies. For just the most recent example see their Wasp clone which obviously takes from the Jasper synth discussed on this forum, without any acknowledgment or attribution.
well, I think they don´t discriminate too much between small or big companies...Roland and Korg are not small synth manufacturers and Behringer hit them both with clones that compite directly with actual products like the Odyssey, K2 or all the analog equivalents to the boutiques

the history would be much different if Behringer was enter the market with a 100% propietary design that sports their logo on the front panel. This way it was really hard for them to break their stigma of a cheapo company. Instead they attacked the most significant synth icons, releasing clones at a bargain prices and therefore winning the people´s hearts as some kind of Prometheus or Robin Hood.

A lot of people loved this, other just think that other companies like Roland got enough time and opportunities to release this very products with their brand on them, but they never listened to customers. I´m in this group for sure. The only stuff they did well was to team up with Malekko to bring the old system-100m designs to eurorack, and I jumped on it in no time. Sadly Behringer will release the same stuff for about 1/3 of what I paid, so now I´m feel ripped by Roland
I agree with everything you say but I don't understand how Behringer releasing cheaper versions makes you feel ripped off by Roland. Two things can be said about Roland, its products work properly when released and its products have proven to be very durable. We don't know what Roland Corp or Music Group's financials look like. Both companies will be trying to maximize profits by setting a margin that enables profit but is as affordable as it can be. But we don't know what the relative cost sides of the equations are. We do know they have different product philosophies that influence the final costs of the products. And whether or not you agree with Roland's current product strategy, there is obviously a fair amount of synth R&D going on.

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Post by coolshirtdotjpg » Fri Dec 06, 2019 5:03 am

Can we stop talking about ethical consumption? It's not a real thing under the economic system we live in.

Watch me get warned for politics for saying that, despite the fact that everything people are saying during these product threads is political. It gums up all discussion and everyone says the same thing literally every time. If we're going to keep politics of this board, let's at least get some benefit from it.
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Post by sduck » Fri Dec 06, 2019 12:44 pm

Absolutely. Please keep the discussion on the actual synth please.
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Post by anselmi » Fri Dec 06, 2019 1:50 pm

dubonaire wrote:
anselmi wrote:
DMR wrote:People try to defend Behringer by saying they are bringing affordable instruments to the masses, as if there were not already affordable hardware and software synths available.
yep, this is true
you can buy a Korg Monologue or the Uno for less than a MS-1, and both are better featured synth (if you don´t count the Uno´s lack of keyboard)
The issue with Behringer is not that their products are inexpensive, but that their business model is to save on design costs by ripping off other, smaller companies. For just the most recent example see their Wasp clone which obviously takes from the Jasper synth discussed on this forum, without any acknowledgment or attribution.
well, I think they don´t discriminate too much between small or big companies...Roland and Korg are not small synth manufacturers and Behringer hit them both with clones that compite directly with actual products like the Odyssey, K2 or all the analog equivalents to the boutiques

the history would be much different if Behringer was enter the market with a 100% propietary design that sports their logo on the front panel. This way it was really hard for them to break their stigma of a cheapo company. Instead they attacked the most significant synth icons, releasing clones at a bargain prices and therefore winning the people´s hearts as some kind of Prometheus or Robin Hood.

A lot of people loved this, other just think that other companies like Roland got enough time and opportunities to release this very products with their brand on them, but they never listened to customers. I´m in this group for sure. The only stuff they did well was to team up with Malekko to bring the old system-100m designs to eurorack, and I jumped on it in no time. Sadly Behringer will release the same stuff for about 1/3 of what I paid, so now I´m feel ripped by Roland
I agree with everything you say but I don't understand how Behringer releasing cheaper versions makes you feel ripped off by Roland. Two things can be said about Roland, its products work properly when released and its products have proven to be very durable. We don't know what Roland Corp or Music Group's financials look like. Both companies will be trying to maximize profits by setting a margin that enables profit but is as affordable as it can be. But we don't know what the relative cost sides of the equations are. We do know they have different product philosophies that influence the final costs of the products. And whether or not you agree with Roland's current product strategy, there is obviously a fair amount of synth R&D going on.
Well, I think it depends on the product. How much R&D is needed to restart an 808, 303 or 101? I think in all cases Roland should have had to do less homework than Behringer.
Also: Roland is not a small company, so it can afford mass production and reduce costs. I know I'm guessing some parts of the whole story, but the profit margins are so different that I can't imagine why Roland can't launch products with a price ratio similar to Behringer's.
Behringer's construction seems fine in general, and Roland is not *stellar* in this department either, just OK. I would say that both fit into the "decent standard" region, so this should not be a much higher price factor for Roland's stuff. Roland's things tend to be expensive, even when compared to other companies like Korg.

And I think they don't deserve all the praise people give them. Their most emblematic stuff was just happy accidents that they later capitalized on as a triumph, using the names of these products in other stuff that never lived up to their predecessors.

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Post by anselmi » Fri Dec 06, 2019 1:52 pm

coolshirtdotjpg wrote:Can we stop talking about ethical consumption? It's not a real thing under the economic system we live in.

Watch me get warned for politics for saying that, despite the fact that everything people are saying during these product threads is political. It gums up all discussion and everyone says the same thing literally every time. If we're going to keep politics of this board, let's at least get some benefit from it.
sduck wrote:Absolutely. Please keep the discussion on the actual synth please.
sorry, I don´t see your post until I posted mine...I´ll stop it now

just some last words: I think it´s OK to discuss this kind of stuff too, in a respectful way, of course
as customers this practice could change the way we buy and then apply some pressure over companies´policies to bring us better products

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