Any music gear discussions that don't fit into one of the other forums.
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- Super Deluxe Wiggler
- Posts: 1315
- Joined: Wed May 06, 2015 4:13 pm
- Location: Santa Cruz, California
coolshirtdotjpg wrote:Can we stop talking about ethical consumption? It's not a real thing under the economic system we live in.
Watch me get warned for politics for saying that, despite the fact that everything people are saying during these product threads is political. It gums up all discussion and everyone says the same thing literally every time. If we're going to keep politics of this board, let's at least get some benefit from it.
sduck wrote:Absolutely. Please keep the discussion on the actual synth please.
sorry, I don´t see your post until I posted mine...I´ll stop it now
just some last words: I think it´s OK to discuss this kind of stuff too, in a respectful way, of course
as customers this practice could change the way we buy and then apply some pressure over companies´policies to bring us better products
I do get that, but maybe a seperate behringer ethics thread would be a place for that. I appreciate your respectfulness. My more general point was that if I said, "I don't like X company because of the sexism in their advertising" or anything like that, it would be shut down as political immediately, but endless behringer threads drag on, and it's more a double standard on the part of the mods than any individual poster. Anyway, I've said my piece.
Back on topic. I think B may have shot themselves in the foot here. I think if this had come out before the model D it might have been a success, but I could literally buy 3 model Ds on the used market right now for the price of this, that's one less note of polyphony and 5 more oscillators. Granted if you want a monosynth to gig with, it's nice, but I just don't think this price works. 500 USD would have generated a lot more excitement.
- Super Deluxe Wiggler
- Posts: 6285
- Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2010 10:45 pm
anselmi wrote: dubonaire wrote: anselmi wrote:
DMR wrote:People try to defend Behringer by saying they are bringing affordable instruments to the masses, as if there were not already affordable hardware and software synths available.
yep, this is true
you can buy a Korg Monologue or the Uno for less than a MS-1, and both are better featured synth (if you don´t count the Uno´s lack of keyboard)
The issue with Behringer is not that their products are inexpensive, but that their business model is to save on design costs by ripping off other, smaller companies. For just the most recent example see their Wasp clone which obviously takes from the Jasper synth discussed on this forum, without any acknowledgment or attribution.
well, I think they don´t discriminate too much between small or big companies...Roland and Korg are not small synth manufacturers and Behringer hit them both with clones that compite directly with actual products like the Odyssey, K2 or all the analog equivalents to the boutiques
the history would be much different if Behringer was enter the market with a 100% propietary design that sports their logo on the front panel. This way it was really hard for them to break their stigma of a cheapo company. Instead they attacked the most significant synth icons, releasing clones at a bargain prices and therefore winning the people´s hearts as some kind of Prometheus or Robin Hood.
A lot of people loved this, other just think that other companies like Roland got enough time and opportunities to release this very products with their brand on them, but they never listened to customers. I´m in this group for sure. The only stuff they did well was to team up with Malekko to bring the old system-100m designs to eurorack, and I jumped on it in no time. Sadly Behringer will release the same stuff for about 1/3 of what I paid, so now I´m feel ripped by Roland
I agree with everything you say but I don't understand how Behringer releasing cheaper versions makes you feel ripped off by Roland. Two things can be said about Roland, its products work properly when released and its products have proven to be very durable. We don't know what Roland Corp or Music Group's financials look like. Both companies will be trying to maximize profits by setting a margin that enables profit but is as affordable as it can be. But we don't know what the relative cost sides of the equations are. We do know they have different product philosophies that influence the final costs of the products. And whether or not you agree with Roland's current product strategy, there is obviously a fair amount of synth R&D going on.
Well, I think it depends on the product. How much R&D is needed to restart an 808, 303 or 101? I think in all cases Roland should have had to do less homework than Behringer.
Also: Roland is not a small company, so it can afford mass production and reduce costs. I know I'm guessing some parts of the whole story, but the profit margins are so different that I can't imagine why Roland can't launch products with a price ratio similar to Behringer's.
Behringer's construction seems fine in general, and Roland is not *stellar* in this department either, just OK. I would say that both fit into the "decent standard" region, so this should not be a much higher price factor for Roland's stuff. Roland's things tend to be expensive, even when compared to other companies like Korg.
And I think they don't deserve all the praise people give them. Their most emblematic stuff was just happy accidents that they later capitalized on as a triumph, using the names of these products in other stuff that never lived up to their predecessors.
Roland developed its own proprietary chip for its Zen Core. That's a shitload of R&D. I suspect Music Group's R&D goes into lowering the cost of production.
All the Roland products I have are high quality. I haven't seen any Behringer products but I recall complaints about Deepmind faders and they have released buggy products, so I'm concluding there is a quality difference.
- Veteran Wiggler
- Posts: 641
- Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2018 6:36 pm
- Location: Ottawa Ontario
Old Roland stuff is built very very well.
New Roland stuff is built very very inexpensively.
In fact, I would argue that Behringer being the underdogs may have better build quality than all but the biggest Rolands. Korg on the other hand.... I have the MS20 mini, and it’s the same build quality as my Korg MS10. It’s a company I will forever continue to support. I have the Roland TR09 and it’s build quality is not horrible. But I will leave it at that.
Gum is fun, but not on a cat.
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- Wiggling with Experience
- Posts: 398
- Joined: Sat Dec 19, 2009 8:00 am
- Location: Chicago
Just got a pre-order cancellation from Musician's Friend this morning, I'm guessing production has been delayed due to COVID19. Wondering if other's pre-orders were cancelled and if there is an ETA. It's too bad, put the pre-order in with a discount code.