Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by KSS » Sun Feb 09, 2020 5:28 pm

tenembre wrote:
Sun Feb 09, 2020 4:39 pm
Implying that my lens was inaccurate, when in fact I was not talking about investment value at all.
Thank you for the clarification.
I "somehow" suspect you have little idea what the financial reality of young people today is.
My extended family is quite full of those you claim I have no idea about. Cousins, nieces, nephews. And their friends. Their financial reality is quite apparent. Couldn't expect you to know this of course.

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by Randy » Tue Feb 11, 2020 9:09 am

Don't want to wade into a discussion that seems to sometimes go into almost political proportions but a rare thought hit me while I was looking at the 2600 clone for the first time. I won't buy any of these because I'm just not comfortable with the level of copying, and that's not really part of the discussion because that's just me and I'm not saying anyone else feels like me.

But some of the functionality is kinda handy and the stuff doesn't sound too bad. If these had been designed as tributes, something inspired by the originals, but somehow extended or changed in creative ways, then I would probably have a few of these products by now.

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by aroom » Tue Feb 11, 2020 10:00 am

I guess it's different with each clones, but I've read that their TB303 clone incorporated mods from x0xheart, pacemaker (and maybe with another murdered out release Devil Fish), and that their Wasp was more a clone to the Jasper than the original EDP Wasp.

So it's not just a tribute to the original. they incorporate open source project into their commercial products. we know that Robin from DevilFish was approached for a deal - non concluant and it doesn't seems to stop Behringer to continue the development - but I've no idea about the rest.

I'm just as pissed at Arturia with their release of the microbrute who incorporate MI Plaits code (and the non existent collaboration with Mutable Instrument even if claimed) and their Synthi plugin (where Arturia ripped of the Synthi brand from EMS)

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by StillNotWorking » Tue Feb 11, 2020 10:05 am

Randy wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 9:09 am
Don't want to wade into a discussion that seems to sometimes go into almost political proportions but a rare thought hit me while I was looking at the 2600 clone for the first time. I won't buy any of these because I'm just not comfortable with the level of copying, and that's not really part of the discussion because that's just me and I'm not saying anyone else feels like me.

But some of the functionality is kinda handy and the stuff doesn't sound too bad. If these had been designed as tributes, something inspired by the originals, but somehow extended or changed in creative ways, then I would probably have a few of these products by now.
I've touched on it with regards to the visual cloning of knobs and esthetic. Which to me moves they're products closer to what might be considered counterfeits from a company with no former affiliation to the product.

I know next poster will point to Korg did the same which is very true and I need to analyze what they did since it doesn't seem bug me for some reason. Maybe course they already were as an established synth manufacturer at it cloning their own MS20 made them more credible?

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by strettara » Tue Feb 11, 2020 10:53 am

aroom wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 10:00 am
I'm just as pissed at Arturia with their release of the microbrute who incorporate MI Plaits code (and the non existent collaboration with Mutable Instrument even if claimed) and their Synthi plugin (where Arturia ripped of the Synthi brand from EMS)
Seriously though if ever a company needed a reality check it's EMS. I remember reading an announcement from them that their ability to make more of the little briefcase version (can't remember what it's called - Synthi A?) was dependent on finding a source of the original briefcases - forty years later. If that's their idea of supporting the community, then they deserve to get ripped off, if their IP protection is even valid anymore at this point.
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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by SynthBaron » Tue Feb 11, 2020 1:22 pm

Are any working musicians boycotting the big B, or just Gear Acquisition Syndrome sufferers and their drug suppliers?

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by Blairio » Tue Feb 11, 2020 2:33 pm

Sinamsis wrote:
Sun Feb 09, 2020 1:43 pm
Blairio wrote:
Sun Feb 09, 2020 1:39 pm
There are 4 points of view repeated ad nauseam in this thread:

Folk who consider brand X ( insert brand as appropriate) immoral, and won't buy their stuff.

Folk who consider brand X ( insert brand as appropriate) immoral, and will buy their stuff.

Folk who do not consider brand X ( insert brand as appropriate) immoral, and won't buy their stuff.

Folk who do not consider brand X ( insert brand as appropriate) immoral, and will buy their stuff.

Add to that a smattering of copyright, trade-mark, trade-dress and other litigious variants, and you have what? 33 pages of verbiage? Good grief.
You forgot the fifth point of view:

Folk who don't care but interject intermittently to derail the thread and break balls (ha I'm in that group now too). It's just as easy to ignore the thread and allow those that want to discuss this get it all out. Again, the point of the thread is to get this bullshit out of all other threads. Not to accomplish anything else. Seems to be working well as far as I can tell. Thanks mods.
You are absolutely right. If I think of this thread as a heatsink for the detritus of MW + Behringer, it works a treat. I am of an age when the British Broadcasting Corporation's (BBC) mission statement to "Educate, Inform and Entertain" was a cause worth defending.

But it troubles me when a MW thread doesn't manage to hit one of those targets, let alone all three.

Surely we are better than that.

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by everydaycurry » Tue Feb 11, 2020 2:34 pm

StillNotWorking wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 10:05 am
I've touched on it with regards to the visual cloning of knobs and esthetic. Which to me moves they're products closer to what might be considered counterfeits from a company with no former affiliation to the product.
A counterfeit would be visually indistinguishable - only the 303 and MS-1 really look anything like the vintage synths they're based on/cloned from. Everything else has different colors, wildly different sizes, different labels because of included effects/sequencers/etc..

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by StillNotWorking » Tue Feb 11, 2020 2:54 pm

everydaycurry wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 2:34 pm
StillNotWorking wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 10:05 am
I've touched on it with regards to the visual cloning of knobs and esthetic. Which to me moves they're products closer to what might be considered counterfeits from a company with no former affiliation to the product.
A counterfeit would be visually indistinguishable - only the 303 and MS-1 really look anything like the vintage synths they're based on/cloned from. Everything else has different colors, wildly different sizes, different labels because of included effects/sequencers/etc..
Very true. Still the intent from B is to allure you think you fulfilled your dream purchase with a look alike instrument. For those synths with a different form factor we still see knobs and colors are there to make you listen with your eyes. Which probably are true for the majority of sales being done online these days.

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by Sinamsis » Tue Feb 11, 2020 8:29 pm

Blairio wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 2:33 pm
You are absolutely right. If I think of this thread as a heatsink for the detritus of MW + Behringer, it works a treat. I am of an age when the British Broadcasting Corporation's (BBC) mission statement to "Educate, Inform and Entertain" was a cause worth defending.

But it troubles me when a MW thread doesn't manage to hit one of those targets, let alone all three.

Surely we are better than that.
Haha, that's a good analogy.

Honestly, I might have agreed with you when I lurked on this forum but had not joined, or even in my early years of membership... not so much now. This place has certainly changed over the years. Some for the better, some maybe not. The ratio of helpful, positive, educational interactions to toxic ones that I have witnessed has shifted dramatically it seems. Of course this could be perception and the change could be in me.... but a lot of people that I admired when I first joined have slowly disappeared.

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by strettara » Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:52 am

Sinamsis wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 8:29 pm
Blairio wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 2:33 pm
You are absolutely right. If I think of this thread as a heatsink for the detritus of MW + Behringer, it works a treat. I am of an age when the British Broadcasting Corporation's (BBC) mission statement to "Educate, Inform and Entertain" was a cause worth defending.

But it troubles me when a MW thread doesn't manage to hit one of those targets, let alone all three.

Surely we are better than that.
Haha, that's a good analogy.

Honestly, I might have agreed with you when I lurked on this forum but had not joined, or even in my early years of membership... not so much now. This place has certainly changed over the years. Some for the better, some maybe not. The ratio of helpful, positive, educational interactions to toxic ones that I have witnessed has shifted dramatically it seems. Of course this could be perception and the change could be in me.... but a lot of people that I admired when I first joined have slowly disappeared.
I think there's much less toxic behaviour on MW in general these days, compared to several years ago. It's really calmed down enormously. I remember a long period when I literally dreaded the interventions of certain members and their ability to make everything personal and unpleasant. And I played my part in it, no doubt. That has almost completely disappeared.

Secondly, this thread has had a lot of thought provoking contributions. Even as an outsider to the synth world these days, it's been interesting to follow, because these issues go far beyond just synths (although, as far as I am aware, not to other types of musical instrument, which is interesting). Have there been some personal comments and derailments - sure, but people feel strongly about these issues, it reflects their passion for their hobby/passtime/job as musicians who use these devices and it's good that they have that passion.

I think this thread has actually served its purpose very well and been quite educational, informative and entertaining into the bargain.
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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by mat1 » Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:32 am

StillNotWorking wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 2:54 pm
Very true. Still the intent from B is to allure you think you fulfilled your dream purchase with a look alike instrument. For those synths with a different form factor we still see knobs and colors are there to make you listen with your eyes. Which probably are true for the majority of sales being done online these days.
I think it's more about keeping the same workflow as the originals.
We all know what we're buying 😂

The form factor and appearance is massively important in how we interact with them as instruments..

B gets you about 90% of the way. There's always a couple of things that aren't quite right but they're close enough.

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by gringostar » Fri Feb 14, 2020 2:02 pm

StillNotWorking wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 10:05 am
Randy wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 9:09 am
Don't want to wade into a discussion that seems to sometimes go into almost political proportions but a rare thought hit me while I was looking at the 2600 clone for the first time. I won't buy any of these because I'm just not comfortable with the level of copying, and that's not really part of the discussion because that's just me and I'm not saying anyone else feels like me.

But some of the functionality is kinda handy and the stuff doesn't sound too bad. If these had been designed as tributes, something inspired by the originals, but somehow extended or changed in creative ways, then I would probably have a few of these products by now.
I've touched on it with regards to the visual cloning of knobs and esthetic. Which to me moves they're products closer to what might be considered counterfeits from a company with no former affiliation to the product.

I know next poster will point to Korg did the same which is very true and I need to analyze what they did since it doesn't seem bug me for some reason. Maybe course they already were as an established synth manufacturer at it cloning their own MS20 made them more credible?
The MS20 mini was done as a celebration of Korg's 50'th anniversary and was probably conceived as a limited run until they started flying off the shelves and they just had production continue while letting the MS20M and full sized kit become the limited run offerings. Ethically it's also 100% fine since they're literally re-issuing one of their classic products in a similar but slightly different form factor. Korg re-issuing the ARP was also fine seeing how they own the rights to ARP and why Korg's 2600 clone is also fine.

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by thispoison » Fri Feb 14, 2020 5:44 pm

Didn’t “own the rights” really fuck with Moog, Oberheim and SCI?

Ethics ain’t half complex.....
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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by nthall » Fri Feb 14, 2020 6:50 pm

I have a couple of Behringer patch bays. They're the only Behringer products I've ever bought that outlived their warranty. I've bought a lot of their stuff in the past, but it's been a long time. Guitar Center used to just have me throw the stuff on the pile in the backroom when I returned it. No questions asked.

Ethically I don't think they're any different than any other company that produces electronics. Japanese, and South Korean electronics companies got their starts making shitty copies of the licensed American products they were producing in their factories. Now they are just as litigious as IBM.

I don't agree with their practices, but making this post without using a device made by a company with a similar track record would be impossible.

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by 22tape » Fri Feb 14, 2020 6:58 pm

Does Behringer donate to charitable causes recommended by, and on behalf of, the original designers? I've only ever bought one clone-- Tall Dog's 8hp Rings, because they donate a percentage of their profits to charities recommended by, and behalf of, Mutable Instruments. It's just the cool and right thing to do methinks.

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by 3hands » Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:18 pm

22tape wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 6:58 pm
Does Behringer donate to charitable causes recommended by, and on behalf of, the original designers? I've only ever bought one clone-- Tall Dog's 8hp Rings, because they donate a percentage of their profits to charities recommended by, and behalf of, Mutable Instruments. It's just the cool and right thing to do methinks.

Does Roland do that? Korg? Did Sequential? How about Serge?

Leave your virtue signalling at the door. Please.
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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by 22tape » Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:20 pm

3hands wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:18 pm
22tape wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 6:58 pm
Does Behringer donate to charitable causes recommended by, and on behalf of, the original designers? I've only ever bought one clone-- Tall Dog's 8hp Rings, because they donate a percentage of their profits to charities recommended by, and behalf of, Mutable Instruments. It's just the cool and right thing to do methinks.

Does Roland do that? Korg? Did Sequential? How about Serge?

Leave your virtue signalling at the door. Please.
I don't know if they do. But they should.

Leave your fucking over-sensitive attitude in the toilet. Please. :lol:

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by 3hands » Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:25 pm

Perhaps get a grasp of what you’re trying to get across before posting next time. You’re answer to my question is “I don’t know but they should”. And then you try to belittle based on the fact that you have absolutely nothing to say.

Sorry man, that’s hilarious.
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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by 22tape » Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:49 pm

3hands wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:25 pm
Perhaps get a grasp of what you’re trying to get across before posting next time. You’re answer to my question is “I don’t know but they should”. And then you try to belittle based on the fact that you have absolutely nothing to say.

Sorry man, that’s hilarious.
Sorry, dad, you must have mistaken me for someone who gives a shit about defending one name brand over another :lol: I mentioned Behringer because the title of the thread is, um, "Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy." But it applies to all. :party:

Get over yourself. Meow.

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by 3hands » Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:50 pm

Once again... lots of words, nothing to say.

Next...
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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by ranix » Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:11 pm

22tape wrote: [all manufacturers who create clones of popular circuits should] donate to charitable causes recommended by, and on behalf of, the original designers.
22tape wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:49 pm
Get over yourself. Meow.
:lol:
:fap:

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by 22tape » Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:26 pm

:waah:

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by Sinamsis » Fri Feb 14, 2020 9:32 pm

Hopefully we can reign in the ugliness... the MI comparison isn't really valid considering all of it open source and producing spin offs appears to be "ok" as long as MI is given credit. Now when Blue Lantern starting utilizing the MI designs, that was controversial and perhaps a more related, but still different, comparison.

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by synthetek » Sat Feb 15, 2020 1:20 am

gringostar wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 2:02 pm
Korg re-issuing the ARP was also fine seeing how they own the rights to ARP and why Korg's 2600 clone is also fine.
Except that they dont actually own ARP

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