Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

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22tape
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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by 22tape » Sun Nov 29, 2020 1:21 pm

strettara wrote:
Sun Nov 29, 2020 12:47 pm
Good is just normal English. If you say someone’s a good pianist, no-one is going to wrinkle their brow and wonder whether you mean he’s good at playing the piano or a good person who plays the piano. Similarly with being a good businessman.
Also, this is a false equivalence. This thread is about moral and ethics as it applies to business. I mean, we can talk about the moral and ethics of the business of piano playing if you want.

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by 22tape » Sun Nov 29, 2020 1:22 pm

strettara wrote:
Sun Nov 29, 2020 1:15 pm
I’ll leave the last shot to you.
Taken.

:miley:

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by mkdvb » Sun Nov 29, 2020 2:09 pm

This is a topic I've been thinking about lately, not just Behringer but music culture & sustainability in general.

I don't have any Behringer or Music Tribe gear in my studio, except an old patchbay with a few busted jacks that would be more hassle to sell than to keep. Some of their products are quite tempting ... the FCB 1010 foot controller, XR mixer series, the cloned rackmount studio gear, many of the synths. I've owned the Boog D & the Neutron -- they were very impressive.

But I've been around a while & one of the things I really miss is this idea of a MUSIC CULTURE. When I was younger, when the words indie & DIY were starting to lose all meaning, I thought the scene was culture but that's not quite right. So much music, even the very best of what I love, smacks of crass commercialization, attention grabbing or self-centered navel gazing.

If I'm an artist, an aesthete, then every choice I make says something about how developed (or not) my vision, my aesthetic is. Behringer represents things I don't wish to project in my vision - the primacy of money/convenience, that history & respect for "elders"/visionaries doesn't matter, that "culture" doesn't matter, that I either don't know or don't care who pays the price so I can save money. How can I as an artist perpetuate a culture if I don't care or think about anyone but myself?

When I contrast Yamaha's lovely gesture of GIVING Dave Smith back the Sequential name & the respect the Roland/Yamaha people have for Dave's achievements with Behringer's behavior, I know which of those I prefer to focus on in my pursuits.

But I don't mean to demonize Behringer -- I know he's not American but Behringer behavior is absolutely the American way. As a yank, I want something different. Americans don't have any real culture & the sad part is most of us don't even know it.

As for sustainability, that's a really hard question to be asking on a forum such as this. It's hard to think of a more privileged niche than eurorack makers printing up small batch PCB boards & shipping them around the world to gear-addicts who then ship them around endlessly to each other. How many people will criticize Behringer without any thought as to how they might contribute to the problem as well?

I used to do a record label & thought it'd be way cleaner to just go digital but it turns out it's not that simple when energy cost-wise, 23 streams is the equivalent of 1 vinyl LP at which point the record is better for the environment. I thought getting rid of big, clunky analogs & going ITB would be cleaner but again, not that simple because laptops have short product lifecycles, planned obsolescence & are crazy energy hogs relative to analog synths & there's a point where the ongoing energy cost exceeds the cost of manufacture & keeps going.

Like I said, I've been thinking about it a while now. I don't have any answers though! The one thing I will say is when things cost more, people put more thought into their choices & that can be a good thing even if it sucks as a consumer who's used to getting everything cheap cheap cheap.

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by dubonaire » Mon Nov 30, 2020 12:19 am

Thanks for the thoughtful post. I think you've raised an issue that permeates music-making today, and I think the idea of trying to maintain a culture with strong ethical values and caring about others is the way we should be thinking and acting and I can't understand why anyone would think any other way (although I think historically artists have often tended towards self-centredness and the music industry as I understand it has been rapacious from the beginning).

Do you have a reference for the energy balance of vinyl versus streaming? That's fascinating. There is as you may know a narrowly scoped argument that vinyl records are more environmentally harmful than digital media which has been latched onto with very little critical assessment.

I have to say I would be really surprised to learn that Yamaha gave the Sequential brand back in an act of pure magnanimity, I suspect they decided they would never use the brand. It's a good act but I doubt a great act. Nonetheless a much better act than trying to make a fool out of a journalist or suing an employer of DSI.

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by KSS » Mon Nov 30, 2020 1:22 am

https://meaningness.com/geeks-mops-sociopaths Originally linked by mskala on MW in Dec 2017. It's not perfect, but it does a pretty good* efficient and effective job of hitting some important points.

Agree thanks are due mkdvb for a thoughtful post.

FWIW, you left off part beyond currency cost for that ITB laptop. AKA the negative environmental effects on both ends of its life cycle. Not to mention the crazy energy hogs the synths themselves have become as digital takes over. Only ten years ago, ONE amp power supply was pretty large and perfectly suitable for a large synth. Not so much now.

*had to ;)
Last edited by KSS on Mon Nov 30, 2020 1:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by KSS » Mon Nov 30, 2020 1:34 am

dubonaire wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 12:19 am
I have to say I would be really surprised to learn that Yamaha gave the Sequential brand back in an act of pure magnanimity, I suspect they decided they would never use the brand. It's a good act but I doubt a great act.
I wouldn't. Traditional Japanese culture still works on respect. And Dave S used to work with Yamaha so is an adopted member of their 'family'. While I would never completely rule out economics as having something to do with the decision, I'm far less suspecting that it was the main motivation.

And was it Yamaha? Ikutaro Kakehashi of Roland is who I thought did this? If that's right, I'm even less suspect of economics leading altruism as primnary motivator.

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by dubonaire » Mon Nov 30, 2020 2:32 am

KSS wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 1:34 am
dubonaire wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 12:19 am
I have to say I would be really surprised to learn that Yamaha gave the Sequential brand back in an act of pure magnanimity, I suspect they decided they would never use the brand. It's a good act but I doubt a great act.
I wouldn't. Traditional Japanese culture still works on respect. And Dave S used to work with Yamaha so is an adopted member of their 'family'. While I would never completely rule out economics as having something to do with the decision, I'm far less suspecting that it was the main motivation.

And was it Yamaha? Ikutaro Kakehashi of Roland is who I thought did this? If that's right, I'm even less suspect of economics leading altruism as primnary motivator.
Yeah it was Yamaha. And I wonder if you’ve worked with Japanese business people. I work with them every day.

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by jonne74 » Mon Nov 30, 2020 2:46 am

I saw Behringer teasing what looks like a Linn Drum this morning. So about two years to launch.

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by KSS » Mon Nov 30, 2020 3:04 am

@Dubonaire
Of course you do. Located as you are, that's to be expected, isn't it? Of course those of us farther away couldn't possibly have relevant experience could we? Let me get out of the way of your massive swinging dk. And for the record, yes, I work with them too. Not every day. I suppose that's reason to deprecate my input as you so often seem to feel the need to do.

Is there any topic on which you are not the worlds forum's ultimate authority?

I'd edit that "D" typo I made in your name but it kind of fits.

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by Orange » Mon Nov 30, 2020 3:49 am

dubonaire wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 2:32 am
KSS wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 1:34 am
dubonaire wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 12:19 am
I have to say I would be really surprised to learn that Yamaha gave the Sequential brand back in an act of pure magnanimity, I suspect they decided they would never use the brand. It's a good act but I doubt a great act.
I wouldn't. Traditional Japanese culture still works on respect. And Dave S used to work with Yamaha so is an adopted member of their 'family'. While I would never completely rule out economics as having something to do with the decision, I'm far less suspecting that it was the main motivation.

And was it Yamaha? Ikutaro Kakehashi of Roland is who I thought did this? If that's right, I'm even less suspect of economics leading altruism as primnary motivator.
Yeah it was Yamaha. And I wonder if you’ve worked with Japanese business people. I work with them every day.
Of course it was Yamaha, it was their brand. But this ‘give it back’ action was encouraged by Roland’s Founder, Ikutaro Kakehashi. I don’t see this happening elsewhere.
They could sell the name to Uli...... or another smart businessman. That is the usual way........ But it is not in the hands of an ‘Uli’, they gave it back to Dave.
Yes, I‘m almost shure Uli was more than interested in the brandname and asked for the price of it.
We know what happened with the brand name. :party:
Last edited by Orange on Mon Nov 30, 2020 7:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by dubonaire » Mon Nov 30, 2020 4:06 am

I don’t see it happening elsewhere either. But giving away something that is worthless is not a gift.

The last half of your post is too cryptic for me.

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by Orange » Mon Nov 30, 2020 4:37 am

dubonaire wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 4:06 am
I don’t see it happening elsewhere either. But giving away something that is worthless is not a gift.

The last half of your post is too cryptic for me.
Sorry for my English.
I tried to explain that the brandname is not worthless. :hihi:
I’m sure Uli was interested. Or other businessmen. In the end, they gave it to Dave for free.
There is a whole business of buying and selling old brands btw.
Last edited by Orange on Mon Nov 30, 2020 4:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by Orange » Mon Nov 30, 2020 4:39 am

Double post
Last edited by Orange on Mon Nov 30, 2020 4:51 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by Orange » Mon Nov 30, 2020 4:40 am

..
Sh*t triple post

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by strettara » Mon Nov 30, 2020 6:46 am

God I can be an obnoxious cunt sometimes :lol: :lol: :lol: Apologies all.
“It must be abstract. It must change. It must give pleasure."

New album: OZ

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by kons » Mon Nov 30, 2020 10:44 am

apology accepted... strettara... does Italian differntiate between 'good-capable' and 'good-not evil'??
Yamaha can't do something out of the goodness of their heart, they are a company and thus have no heart...

There is no practical way to accurately weigh the individual environmental cost of a digital download of music vs a vinyl: Is the server being run on renewable electricity, is the playback with a laptop using 10's of watts or a tower pc using 100's, is the turntable playing the vinyl running on renewable electricity, how was the vinyl transported from factory to store to consumer and how far, was the pressing plant running on renewable electricity, was the vinyl made up of recycled material, ... etc. Anyone trying to tell you they have an accurate assessment is blowing hot air up your bum.

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by strettara » Mon Nov 30, 2020 10:53 am

I'm British. English does of course: being good and being good (at). The transitive nature of the adjective doesn't have to be made explicit to be understood.

In Italian you'd say "bravo/a" to mean both good (una brava persona) and good at (bravo a suonare il pianoforte). Un cuoco bravo is a good cook - i.e. someone who is good at cooking. Not a good person who also cooks. So, just like English.

Anyway enough on the subject from me.
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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by BlinkyLights » Mon Nov 30, 2020 10:54 am

Uli Behringer tucks his t-shirts in and wears a belt with them.

Ask yourself, what sort of monster does such a thing...?

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by Kattefjaes » Mon Nov 30, 2020 11:03 am

strettara wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 6:46 am
God I can be an obnoxious cunt sometimes :lol: :lol: :lol: Apologies all.
This seems to be the thread where we bring our worst selves, after all. It's Vegas in thread form ;)

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by kons » Mon Nov 30, 2020 11:26 am

BlinkyLights wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 10:54 am
Uli Behringer tucks his t-shirts in and wears a belt with them.

Ask yourself, what sort of monster does such a thing...?
Have you seen how the youngsters dress these days? That is the height of fashionable... with a fanny-pack worn across the shoulder... and sandals and socks...
irony becomes tragedy

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by Red Electric Rainbow » Mon Nov 30, 2020 12:30 pm

BlinkyLights wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 10:54 am
Uli Behringer tucks his t-shirts in and wears a belt with them.

Ask yourself, what sort of monster does such a thing...?
thats a 100% effective form of birth control.
TOO FAR GONE

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by BlinkyLights » Mon Nov 30, 2020 12:34 pm

sandals and socks
(shudder)
fanny pack
(wretch)

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by dubonaire » Mon Nov 30, 2020 4:23 pm

kons wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 10:44 am

There is no practical way to accurately weigh the individual environmental cost of a digital download of music vs a vinyl: Is the server being run on renewable electricity, is the playback with a laptop using 10's of watts or a tower pc using 100's, is the turntable playing the vinyl running on renewable electricity, how was the vinyl transported from factory to store to consumer and how far, was the pressing plant running on renewable electricity, was the vinyl made up of recycled material, ... etc. Anyone trying to tell you they have an accurate assessment is blowing hot air up your bum.
It depends what you mean by accuracy. Assessments of embodied energy of products are done all the time. You can end up with a range of embodied energy estimates for some products which will look like some sort of distribution curve with a standard deviation. If the centres of the curves of the two estimates are close together and or the SD is large you might not have the accuracy required to see a meaningful difference, but if the the centers of the curves are far apart e.g. an order of magnitude then you would have.

The type energy source is is not relevant to an embodied energy assessment.

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by 22tape » Mon Nov 30, 2020 5:19 pm

strettara wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 6:46 am
God I can be an obnoxious cunt sometimes :lol: :lol: :lol: Apologies all.
Ain't that the truth for all of us. I'd still have a pint with you! :drinking:

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by 22tape » Mon Nov 30, 2020 5:25 pm

KSS wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 1:22 am
...but it does a pretty good* efficient and effective job...
:hihi:

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