Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

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SynthBaron
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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by SynthBaron » Fri Mar 06, 2020 6:41 pm

htor wrote:
Fri Mar 06, 2020 1:15 pm
to b or not to b – that's the question
:miley:

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by aroom » Fri Mar 06, 2020 6:45 pm

3hands wrote:
Fri Mar 06, 2020 5:59 pm
luketeaford wrote:
Fri Mar 06, 2020 5:47 pm
I don't follow this thread but it's like 95% of the reports and the namecalling/personal insults are really getting out of hand.

When people insult each other back and forth it makes deleting the posts very difficult because of all the quotations. I'm going to ban anyone who is reported for namecalling etc in this thread for a few days so we don't have to lock it (which is unfair to the people discussing it).
I agree. I’m fine with some bantering between users I may not agree with but respect. A lot of these personal insults seem to be people coming over from Gearslutz where most of the threads degenerate into this sort of thing. Keep it open, as it’s serving it’s purpose. Keeping the people who are only in this thread, in this thread.
well they have been some great discussions here too. it's not just a ghetto.

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by Joe. » Fri Mar 06, 2020 7:58 pm

Offtopic posting, Name-calling back-n-forth as well as a Bigoted post all removed. Warnings sent.

Please try to stay on topic on threads :tu:

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by KSS » Sat Mar 07, 2020 3:34 am

Arneb wrote:
Fri Mar 06, 2020 5:50 am
(Though I guess naming his company "Music Tribe" is Uli's fault.)
Roger Arrick of Dotcom also uses "tribe" on his synthesizers.com website.
It's just one of the latest corporate employee strategy flavors of the month-year. Shows Uli -and Roger- read business development blogs and follow corporate influencer media. Was called "Team" -listen when you're in a Home Depot- before it morphed into "Tribe"
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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by KSS » Sat Mar 07, 2020 3:38 am

Christopher Winkels wrote:
Fri Mar 06, 2020 6:56 am
My greatest regret from this fiasco is that the term "corksniffer", a put down beloved by me and several of my friends, now carries a taint attached to it.
Agreed.
"And put in your ear plugs, Put on your eye shades, You know where to put the cork." :help:

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by KSS » Sat Mar 07, 2020 3:43 am

htor wrote:
Fri Mar 06, 2020 1:15 pm
to b or not to b – that's the question
POTM! :yay:

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by StillNotWorking » Sat Mar 07, 2020 4:18 am

Joe. wrote:
Fri Mar 06, 2020 7:58 pm
Offtopic posting, Name-calling back-n-forth as well as a Bigoted post all removed. Warnings sent.

Please try to stay on topic on threads :tu:
Thanks :hail: I'll like to point out for the future if tribe members should try to take the victim role from this happening.

In my general suggestion to rather ban users with an agenda to stir up hatred than close the thread I did not make any name dropping or quoting. Still the user many of us suspected where here with the purpose to make harm made the connection to her/himself and responded like I were talking directly to this user.
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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by strettara » Sat Mar 07, 2020 5:08 am

StillNotWorking wrote:
Sat Mar 07, 2020 4:18 am
Joe. wrote:
Fri Mar 06, 2020 7:58 pm
Offtopic posting, Name-calling back-n-forth as well as a Bigoted post all removed. Warnings sent.

Please try to stay on topic on threads :tu:
Thanks :hail: I'll like to point out for the future if tribe members should try to take the victim role from this happening.

In my general suggestion to rather ban users with an agenda to stir up hatred than close the thread I did not make any name dropping or quoting. Still the user many of us suspected where here with the purpose to make harm made the connection to her/himself and responded like I were talking directly to this user.
Rather than calling for people to be banned just write to a mod and explain your concerns. Banning is not a call you should be making or even proposing, although you may welcome it after the fact. At least that's how I see it, as just a normal member here.

As for stirring up hatred, I haven't seen anything in this thread that even remotely fits that description. The fact that you disagree with someone doesn't make them a bad actor.

That's as far as my personal ethics goes. As for Uli and his misdeeds, it's pretty meh to me tbh.
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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by StillNotWorking » Sat Mar 07, 2020 6:04 am

strettara wrote:
Sat Mar 07, 2020 5:08 am
Rather than calling for people to be banned just write to a mod and explain your concerns. Banning is not a call you should be making or even proposing, although you may welcome it after the fact. At least that's how I see it, as just a normal member here.

As for stirring up hatred, I haven't seen anything in this thread that even remotely fits that description. The fact that you disagree with someone doesn't make them a bad actor.

That's as far as my personal ethics goes. As for Uli and his misdeeds, it's pretty meh to me tbh.
To clarify. To me name calling qualify as "stirring up hatred". But I'm fine with you not having the same threshold. I also understand what I read as missbehavior some times can be jokes between people with a closer relationship.
With posts in question now deletet context for further discussion of this is lost.

I made the suggestion to put memebers on pause (ban) as a general method as opposed to close this thread when members do not apply with the rules set by moderator. Nothing to do with disagreement but a means for us to still have a discussion.

And I decided to do it in the discussion rather than with the moderator for the community to have an opinion on the matter :tu:
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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by Be Sandy? » Sat Mar 07, 2020 6:14 am

Let's not pull this further off topic with discussion about how the thread should be handled by moderators please.
We're actively doing things. If you have specific concerns or ideas PM me or use the report thread feature.

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by GIUFJ » Sat Mar 07, 2020 6:24 am

thispoison wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:13 pm
Peake wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 12:41 pm
Obviously there is nothing Behringer cannot damage when they put their destructive minds to it for short-term profits.
Genuine question. What has been damaged, and how?
Meh, I don't have the numbers, but releasing a a 2600 clone while Korg - the owner of the brand- has a more expensive version on the marked must damage Korg's rightful earnings...
Last edited by GIUFJ on Sat Mar 07, 2020 9:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by Christopher Winkels » Sat Mar 07, 2020 6:48 am

GIUFJ wrote:
Sat Mar 07, 2020 6:24 am
thispoison wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:13 pm
Peake wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 12:41 pm
Obviously there is nothing Behringer cannot damage when they put their destructive minds to it for short-term profits.
Genuine question. What has been damaged, and how?
Meh, I don't have the numbers, but releasing a a 2600 clone while Kort - the owner of the brand- has a more expensive version on the marked must damage Korg's rightful earnings...
Korg presold every single unit.

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by KSS » Sat Mar 07, 2020 7:11 am

GIUFJ wrote:
Sat Mar 07, 2020 6:24 am
Meh, I don't have the numbers, but releasing a a 2600 clone while Kort - the owner of the brand- has a more expensive version on the marked must damage Korg's rightful earnings...
Korg has no more 'rights' to ARPs IP than any other company or individual. What they DO own -legally- is the ARP treble clef logo. Period.
What they also have gained in the synth arena due to -non legal based- beliefs like yours, is marketplace good will. They've increased this with blatant and subtle -one could evenb go so far as to say false- marketing of connections to OGs of ARP, which furthers beliefs like yours.

But the bottom line remains the same. Korg have no more right to ARP IP and reference than any other company or individual. Excepting the treble clef logo. They DO own that.

Owning a single logo of a legendary brand is a LONG ways from being "owner of the brand".

edit: If you're at all interested in learning more about this, I have posted many times in many threads about different parts of this ARP ownership and IP situation. And other ARP false beliefs, like the supposed moog lawsuit, and encapsulating submodules to protect IP. Neither is true. /edit

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by GIUFJ » Sat Mar 07, 2020 9:23 am

I stand corrected:-)

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by GIUFJ » Sat Mar 07, 2020 9:26 am

How about the vocoder, then? A remake/ copycat of the Roland, while they had their own boutique out? I know it was a digital in an analogue-feel box. But still. Did Behringer politely ask Roland if it was OK the clone their engineering? They are pirates IMHO.

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by Flounderguts » Sat Mar 07, 2020 10:20 am

GIUFJ wrote:
Sat Mar 07, 2020 9:26 am
How about the vocoder, then? A remake/ copycat of the Roland, while they had their own boutique out? I know it was a digital in an analogue-feel box. But still. Did Behringer politely ask Roland if it was OK the clone their engineering? They are pirates IMHO.
Roland isn't exactly a "polite" company, either. This has been rehashed over and over...obsolete, untrademarked, out-of-patent, questionably protected, previously stolen...these are all types of IP that need not be asked about. It just so happens that Behringer has identified a market for much-loved OBSOLETE circuits. If an automaker found a ready market for old Bricklin SV-1's, and decided to produce them...then the previous owners of the Bricklin Car Company probably wouldn't care. Or at least they wouldn't have a legal leg to stand on. And the only reason to ask them to come on board would be to give the new brand some cache or history.

Does Behringer have some questionable business practices? Yep. Up to you if you act on that.
There ARE some lines they could step across that would turn me into a boycotter...for instance if they cloned MFOS or PAIA stuff without permission, as those are actively earning money for the (venerable) companies involved.

Personally, I like the B clones, as they have gone to the trouble of making them easily compatible with modern gear. Even if I could afford a 2600 or a CS-80, modifying it to work with MIDI would be tough, and might just be punishable by 50 lashes with a TRS cable. I appreciate the opportunity to work with hardware synths that work with my other hardware. That I can afford.

And I'm certainly not going to cry over lost profits for Korg or Roland or their parent companies. Nor should you.

I feel like having opinions about IP between companies (that you or I are not involved with) is completely spurious and disingenuous. Recently, a company I work for notified a European company that they were violating our patents in the USA. That company suspended sales of their products in the USA without any input from us, probably as a goodwill gesture. Our company took a tremendous beating on the forums from consumers who had never used our products...and we're the little guy. All we wanted from the other company was text on their product that it was licensed from us...no money traded hands. YET...uninformed consumers (like us lot here) continue to give us grief over unassociated issues that they imagine impact them...we're in to this *months* now. Most of the criticism we see is based on a quick glance at one of our other products or a rehash of criticism they read somewhere else.

I feel like this is how these threads are going. Every opinion seems to oscillate out of control. Unfortunately, Behringer puts out a LOT of video content, which opens them to new criticism and adds amplitude to the positive/negative waves output here.

Personally, I'm pretty stoked to see the Tears For Fears synth restoration.
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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by GIUFJ » Sat Mar 07, 2020 1:18 pm

Interesting point of view...
I'm not saying I disagree... i actually ponder it a lot. I'm tempted to buy some of the Moog remodel stuff. Can't decide what to do. Price tag is not the issue. I don't mind owning half the gear costing double the price, if I want the gear. My modular case is a fair mix of big and small players on the marked.

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by 3hands » Sat Mar 07, 2020 1:49 pm

GIUFJ wrote:
Sat Mar 07, 2020 1:18 pm
Interesting point of view...
I'm not saying I disagree... i actually ponder it a lot. I'm tempted to buy some of the Moog remodel stuff. Can't decide what to do. Price tag is not the issue. I don't mind owning half the gear costing double the price, if I want the gear. My modular case is a fair mix of big and small players on the marked.

So what exactly is your point of view?
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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by GIUFJ » Sat Mar 07, 2020 2:00 pm

Hmmmm. Well... good question. I guess in some cases, releasing a new version of a piece that's no longer on the marked is OK... Releasing a copy of a product on the marked is not.... Behringer could release a ton of their own making instead of just cloning. They did the deep mind, that was an OK release. They made the neutron, an excellent price/ value release. I don't see myself buying a ton of copy modules, neither the Moog clones nor the Roland clones.... But I may be tempted to get one or two. I'd rather see them make their own. Break up the neutron to small individual modules. Also, I think they could gain a lot of ground releasing all their TC pedals as eurorack effects. I'd queue op for those, I love effects. And it would be their own, not copies....

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by syzygywell » Sat Mar 07, 2020 2:28 pm

GIUFJ wrote:
Sat Mar 07, 2020 2:00 pm
Hmmmm. Well... good question. I guess in some cases, releasing a new version of a piece that's no longer on the marked is OK... Releasing a copy of a product on the marked is not....
This has been my general take as well. I don't know if Behringer knew that Moog was going to re-release the Mini D when they had their D planned, though admittedly it rubbed me the wrong way however I do think that it no way impeded what Moog was doing. They sold out their production in a year and a half and many people simply couldn't afford the re-issue. They were really separate markets financially speaking. I also don't doubt that many re-issue owners also have the Boog for double voicing or just simply playing out vs studio (now the poly/para D is another matter and very cool idea at that). The Behringer Arp 2600 also won't be competing with the Korg version. I sat on Korg because of the price and most especially because I actually don't want an Arp 2600 at the original size. I haven't the room. And as it turns it out sold out quickly so it's not an option anyway.
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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by naos » Sat Mar 07, 2020 4:15 pm

syzygywell wrote:
Sat Mar 07, 2020 2:28 pm
I don't know if Behringer knew that Moog was going to re-release the Mini D when they had their D planned, though admittedly it rubbed me the wrong way however I do think that it no way impeded what Moog was doing.
The minimoog is a legendary luxury item, the Boog is an ugly piece of shit. Both have the same sound. Who cares? The sound seems to be the last of our concerns now… You can also get that sound with a cracked VST. Anyone can spend their money as they see fit. Even Cerrone seemed to prefer the fugly behringer Odyssey to the "legit" Korg reissue.

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by 22tape » Sat Mar 07, 2020 4:31 pm

I guess I've never wanted a classic synth so much that I'd root for another company to make a clone. If cloning must be done, I'd find it more interesting if the originals were shit, and the clones were an improvement.

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by Shledge » Sat Mar 07, 2020 6:16 pm

Don't have a problem with clones based on expired patents. Sure, it's not original, but no issues from me there.

I have a problem with the dodgy tactics behringer is doing, which is frankly unnecessary.

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by aethyr » Sun Mar 08, 2020 12:34 am

+1
Shledge wrote:
Sat Mar 07, 2020 6:16 pm
Don't have a problem with clones based on expired patents. Sure, it's not original, but no issues from me there.

I have a problem with the dodgy tactics behringer is doing, which is frankly unnecessary.

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by aroom » Sun Mar 08, 2020 6:36 am

I was in the market for a wired IEM amp with built in limiter.

This is a part of the product line from Fischer Amps:

- In Ear Stick
Image
- Body Pack
Image
- Mini Body Pack
Image

This is a part of the product line from Behringer:

- Powerplay 2
Image
- Powerplay 1
Image
- Powerplay PM1
Image


I don't know when the products from Fisher Amps where released, but the In Ear Stick won the 2018 German Innovation Award.

The price for the In Ear Stick in on average 150 EURO, the Powerplay 2 40 EURO.

I ordered the In Ear Stick.

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