Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

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The Goob
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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by The Goob » Tue Mar 10, 2020 12:36 pm

StillNotWorking wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 11:27 am
Yes I understand what you said, and I've said same myself.

But my point being if M32 have a true Moog designed oscillator a chip based 3340 synth using digital EG then makes comparing M32 with Crave more in line with the usual misleading marketing strategy more than a replica.

I know Starky made them sound very simliar, but one could argue that even a P12 could sound like a 303 with simliar threshold for error and differences :party: .
When a company takes someone else's idea and tries to make a product that does the same thing at a lower price point, they usually have to change some things so they can meet the lower price point (digital EG would be a good example of this). I doubt the Ebtech or Fischer use completely identical parts either.

I guess what you are saying is that since the Behringer is not a component-level recreation, it's not a copy. You're entitled to your opinion, but your definition of a copy is very different than mine (and most people's).

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by EPTC » Tue Mar 10, 2020 12:42 pm

The Goob wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 8:41 am
Different layout, but...
Man, the sequencer section's identical phrasing and button location is embarrassing - right down to "OCTAVE/LOCATION" — How artlessly lame.
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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by StillNotWorking » Tue Mar 10, 2020 4:53 pm

The Goob wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 12:36 pm
I guess what you are saying is that since the Behringer is not a component-level recreation, it's not a copy. You're entitled to your opinion, but your definition of a copy is very different than mine (and most people's).
As it is I have more problem with falsely marketing. One can argue the sequenzer are telling but honesty I don't think any-one would ever knew the Crave where based on M32 if not leaked by someone at B to boost sales on specious claims.

Similar I don't think Poly D should be marketed as a polyphonic synthesizer. Personally I feel the beautiful design of the original Model D are iconic just like a LP head stock or Coca Cola bottle and B could honor this without refering to it as legal for them to copy.
Juno 60 are another one of these cheesy low from them where they mislead customers with design and product description.

I do not have high hope for how they plan marketing the new modules coming. Especially some of the Moog clones I fear will have some distance between product description and what's actually delivered.
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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by thispoison » Wed Mar 11, 2020 9:13 am

StillNotWorking wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 4:53 pm
Similar I don't think Poly D should be marketed as a polyphonic synthesizer.
They learned from the best!

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by KSS » Wed Mar 11, 2020 9:51 am

thispoison wrote:
Wed Mar 11, 2020 9:13 am
They learned from the best!
False equivalence. When that came out divide down stringers *were* generally considered "polyphonic". Even though they were actually polyTonic.

Revisionist history is part of humanity. Goes with the fact that people who were there die and new people interpret and re-interpret.

As with nearly all language and communication, meanings can and do change over time. Or the focus is put on more directly on a meaning, without actually changing it. Recent Marc Doty postings on poly vs para vs whatever. He's trying to 'fix' the current understanding so going forward there's more general agreement. A good goal, but not the same as thinking those who lived through the period he's defining or re-defining wil change how they view the usage.

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by thispoison » Wed Mar 11, 2020 11:24 am

Image
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Same place you saw me, I expect.
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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by StillNotWorking » Wed Mar 11, 2020 3:05 pm

Yes and to my knowledge there are even a few other examples where polyphonic have been used on electronic instruments where history smoothed over their mistake by most other manufacturer using it in the correct context.

To my understanding this is how content in official dictionaries are build. Else I personally would be able to ruin the english language simple by :guinness: and then posting in forums :mrgreen:
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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by thispoison » Wed Mar 11, 2020 3:23 pm

There are indeed many.

To me the issue is the assumption that any, some, most or indeed all intended to mislead.

I'm not convinced that is the case for any of them. B (on this occasion) included. :guinness:
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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by JES » Wed Mar 11, 2020 4:02 pm

Muzone wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 3:59 pm
JES wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 10:28 am

I know this is supposed to be a joke....
Only a demi-joke :hmm:
On some levels it is tough to be part of "the majority" and have everything you say micro analysed for traces of anti-ism,
with no escape from an unintended (mis)use of a word/phrase that has now become subcultured to mean something different,
having to assume the mantle of guilty oppressor by proxy, and not actually knowing what conversational remarks may cause offence or distress.
But yeah, I guess it's not as bad as being beaten, bullied or burned at the stake, I'll give you that.........
Okay, I think we actually have some agreement in the middle of the flame thread! Yes, it is tough to have your privilege called into question. I've been there. But it's not as bad as not having the privilege in the first place.

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by JES » Wed Mar 11, 2020 4:03 pm

geoffmar wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 1:53 pm
JES wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 10:28 am
Muzone wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 5:23 am
it's really tough not being part of persecuted minority these days so fuck everybody :sb:
I know this is supposed to be a joke, but you do realize that by definition, it IS less tough to not be part of a persecuted minority, right? People don’t actually WANT to be persecuted.
There's good money in being persecuted these days! (in the right countries, that is).
Not really.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/ar ... ns/361631/

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by StillNotWorking » Wed Mar 11, 2020 4:29 pm

thispoison wrote:
Wed Mar 11, 2020 3:23 pm
There are indeed many.

To me the issue is the assumption that any, some, most or indeed all intended to mislead.

I'm not convinced that is the case for any of them. B (on this occasion) included. :guinness:
I've not studied any of the historical references, — fact that most of them if not all have this in the past and not using it on modern gear are to me telling though.

Past 25 year one of my tasks have been to support sales team and make what they promise become true at customer site.
Another task I had for more than 15 years where to create technical papers and training on how to manage misbehavior of gear. Lot of effort were made not lie and at the same time not disclose item in qustion where crap with bug-list long as the user manual.

This have made me very cynical to how marketing people and sales representative do they work :guinness:
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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by geoffmar » Wed Mar 11, 2020 4:39 pm

JES wrote:
Wed Mar 11, 2020 4:03 pm
geoffmar wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 1:53 pm
JES wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 10:28 am
Muzone wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 5:23 am
it's really tough not being part of persecuted minority these days so fuck everybody :sb:
I know this is supposed to be a joke, but you do realize that by definition, it IS less tough to not be part of a persecuted minority, right? People don’t actually WANT to be persecuted.
There's good money in being persecuted these days! (in the right countries, that is).
Not really.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/ar ... ns/361631/
Coates' entire career is a testament to my point.

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by JES » Wed Mar 11, 2020 10:57 pm

geoffmar wrote:
Wed Mar 11, 2020 4:39 pm
JES wrote:
Wed Mar 11, 2020 4:03 pm
geoffmar wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 1:53 pm
JES wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 10:28 am
Muzone wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 5:23 am
it's really tough not being part of persecuted minority these days so fuck everybody :sb:
I know this is supposed to be a joke, but you do realize that by definition, it IS less tough to not be part of a persecuted minority, right? People don’t actually WANT to be persecuted.
There's good money in being persecuted these days! (in the right countries, that is).
Not really.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/ar ... ns/361631/
Coates' entire career is a testament to my point.
No, it isn’t. Did you read the article?

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by geoffmar » Thu Mar 12, 2020 2:26 am

JES wrote:
Wed Mar 11, 2020 10:57 pm
geoffmar wrote:
Wed Mar 11, 2020 4:39 pm
JES wrote:
Wed Mar 11, 2020 4:03 pm
geoffmar wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 1:53 pm
JES wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 10:28 am
Muzone wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 5:23 am
it's really tough not being part of persecuted minority these days so fuck everybody :sb:
I know this is supposed to be a joke, but you do realize that by definition, it IS less tough to not be part of a persecuted minority, right? People don’t actually WANT to be persecuted.
There's good money in being persecuted these days! (in the right countries, that is).
Not really.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/ar ... ns/361631/
Coates' entire career is a testament to my point.
No, it isn’t. Did you read the article?
I'm quite familiar with a halfwit grifter like Coates. Like I said, his entire career is proof that it pays to be the "persecuted."

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by KSS » Thu Mar 12, 2020 5:26 am

thispoison wrote:
Wed Mar 11, 2020 3:23 pm
To me the issue is the assumption that any, some, most or indeed all intended to mislead.
I'm not convinced that is the case for any of them. B (on this occasion) included. :guinness:
Well said. While i share still not working's sensitivity to 'marketing' em, 'choices', it's important not to assign guilt where there is none.

In the early 70's, getting two notes instead of only one was a VERY big deal. ARP came up with that, called it DuoPhonic, and even though it didn't come with its own gate/trig -and was patented!- it was still stolen fo use by moog in their modular KBDs. ARP was using moogs ladder filter in their 1006 2500 module, so each company kind of looked the other way. No lawsuit. No hidden IP in epoxy blocks. Couple of points here. Even then companies were slyly and blatantly 'stealing' from each other. And less than perfect means to have more than one note sound at a time were not only embraced, but the language to describe all these things was still being created.

Alan Pearlman's imperfect Duophonic was all we had until Dave Rossum shared something he came up with quickly on a napkin during a discussion with Tom Oberheim. Tom O saw its worth and they proceeded to make patent arrangements for polyphonic keyboards. And the OB2,4,and 8Voice SEM poly's came out and blew us all away. Along with Dave R's own truly polyphonic KBD for the EMu modular.
Then Dave Rossum worked with Dave Smith -see a trend here?- and we got the Prophet 5 and 10. Full featured real polyphony.

As all this was happening, everyone else was trying to stay in the 'current' conversation, and the need to sound 'new' meant words like "poly" and their meanings were shifting. Less intent to mislead, than simply to stay relevant. This state of flux in meanings lasted a *long* time, and attempts to try and go back and pretend it was all static and known is like trying to say Bob M disliked being called mooooog. He told me -and I heard him tell others more than once- it didn't matter to him.

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by StillNotWorking » Thu Mar 12, 2020 8:08 am

Yeah Dave Rossum has his name stamped on many historical synth related events. When samples become advanced creatures EOS where the only one I could get my head around.

Well, I'm still saddened B decide to demolish what the industry spent years agreeing on. Past Korg's success with the Monotribe and Volcas there has been brought numerous low kost synths to the marked. Being able to separately play second oscillator or resonant filter has then become just as important for marketing as it where in the past.

Still the industry with exception of some historical missheps now all seem to agree that a synth with single filter/VCA like Poly-D are to be referd to as 4-voice paraphonic synthesizer as opposed to 4-voice polyphonic paraphonic synthesizer. It makes them honest using less word :guinness:
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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by JES » Thu Mar 12, 2020 10:41 pm

geoffmar wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 2:26 am
JES wrote:
Wed Mar 11, 2020 10:57 pm
geoffmar wrote:
Wed Mar 11, 2020 4:39 pm
JES wrote:
Wed Mar 11, 2020 4:03 pm
geoffmar wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 1:53 pm
JES wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 10:28 am
Muzone wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 5:23 am
it's really tough not being part of persecuted minority these days so fuck everybody :sb:
I know this is supposed to be a joke, but you do realize that by definition, it IS less tough to not be part of a persecuted minority, right? People don’t actually WANT to be persecuted.
There's good money in being persecuted these days! (in the right countries, that is).
Not really.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/ar ... ns/361631/
Coates' entire career is a testament to my point.
No, it isn’t. Did you read the article?
I'm quite familiar with a halfwit grifter like Coates. Like I said, his entire career is proof that it pays to be the "persecuted."
So you didn’t read the article,

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by p_shoulder » Fri Mar 13, 2020 7:51 am

JES wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 10:41 pm
So you didn’t read the article
:foul:

No offense, but Ta-Nehisi Coates clearly falls under the "politics" window, and is not terribly relevant to the "Behringer" story. I can say more about him, but not here. :)

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by JES » Fri Mar 13, 2020 1:24 pm

It went like this:

Geoffmar wrote that there was good money in being oppressed.

That is demonstrably false for the vast majority of oppressed people in the world.

I posted a link to a well-researched article clearly demonstrating that it costs more to be in an oppressed minority than not in the United States. I did not name the author. If you would prefer an article with the same evidence by a white author, or with evidence from other countries, I am sure I could find one, though you could also look it up if you were genuinely curious.

In response to my posting the link, Geoffmar then insulted Coates, while not commenting on the substance of the article, which refutes his demonstrably false claim. Even if you don't buy the reparations argument, the real estate and family wealth histories recounted are well-documented economic facts.

It costs more, not less, to be oppressed in America. For the vast majority of people, there isn't money in being a member of an oppressed minority.

I'm also pretty sure Coates is not actually a criminal (look up the definition of "grifter" if you are unclear on what the term means). I wonder why he would use that very loaded term to denigrate that particular author.

Geoffmar was the one introducing politics into the thread, not me. I was refuting what he said, which is demonstrably not true.

That said, I'm done. I won't be checking back.

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by Be Sandy? » Fri Mar 13, 2020 1:33 pm

Back to commenting on Behringer's practices/ethics etc please.
Thank you :)

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by blw » Fri Mar 13, 2020 7:22 pm

Be Sandy? wrote:
Fri Mar 13, 2020 1:33 pm
Back to commenting on Behringer's practices/ethics etc please.
Thank you :)
Never thought I'd hear anyone say that. :hihi:

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Re: The ethics, morals and legitimacy of musical equipment and its manufacturers.

Post by Voltcontrol » Sat Mar 14, 2020 2:50 am

Muzone wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:08 pm
When there are major companies with products that destroy the the environment and poison their users I feel a moral obligation to avoid them.
The copycatting of electronic circuits used to make music is so far down the scale of "things I want to make a stand against" that I don't have the slightest problem buying what I can afford and actually feel quite good about "cheap copies" making music more accessible.
I'm with Muzone. The only thing that holds me back from buying more B is usability/reliability. Often there's a 'real' version that's much more worthwhile though.
Whilst this thread is not about quality Korg and Behringer have taken more of my money with sub-par and outright bad products, they're head and shoulders above any other manufacturer in that respect for sure. I've had some very reliable products from both on the other hand.
Quality does have a connection to morality:
The thing that is not clear to me is if B is investing in upping their quality, if so the fact that they are trying to flood the market with desirable products is slightly less despicable than it would be if they don't care about quality (and therefore their customers).

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by KSS » Sun Mar 15, 2020 7:32 pm

When I saw this photo, our thread title came to mind
Behringer: legitimacy.
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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by carynrich » Sun Mar 15, 2020 9:18 pm

KSS wrote:
Sun Mar 15, 2020 7:32 pm
When I saw this photo, our thread title came to mind
Behringer: legitimacy.
who's the short guy second from the right?

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by Plop » Sun Mar 15, 2020 9:48 pm

That's Ikutaro Kakehashi, the founder of Roland.

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