Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Any music gear discussions that don't fit into one of the other forums.

Moderators: lisa, luketeaford, Kent, Joe.

Post Reply
User avatar
Voltcontrol
Ravey Dave
Posts: 977
Joined: Thu Jan 25, 2018 1:31 pm
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by Voltcontrol » Wed May 27, 2020 4:29 am

Only just noticed that our good friend Uli is expanding into the DJ/Dance production & performance domain.
"Behringer
15 May 04:47
We have now assembled our best and most passionate engineers from our 400+ global R&D team to develop a complete range of DJ equipment including samplers, groove boxes and controllers etc. to fully integrate with our upcoming free DAW whose development is already in full swing."

User avatar
3hands
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1026
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2018 6:36 pm
Location: Ottawa Ontario

Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by 3hands » Wed May 27, 2020 7:51 am

Shledge wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 9:59 pm
3hands wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 10:06 pm
Shledge wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 1:25 pm
3hands wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 12:20 pm
Shledge wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 7:59 pm
I just wish they didn't resort to greasy tactics (and arguably anti-semitic) because journalists were critical of them - they were on a good run with their synths and that alone speaks for itself, they were starting to change people's minds slowly but surely.

At that point I couldn't defend them any longer.

What anti Semitic things are you seeing? Not calling you out, I simply haven’t seen anything.
I don't wish to discuss it on here for obvious reasons, but it was a point of discussion (and contention) for quite a few people. Still really bad form even if it wasn't.
Please PM me then.
I don't see how pointing out a summary of what happened warrants PMing. If you're asking for my views on the matter or implying I am - a) I personally want to describe the situation objectively instead and b) I didn't bloody imply anything.

I've been in hot water over it in the past for being "political" (which seems to be incredibly wooly and inconsistent on MW, I'm aware saying that will annoy some mods but frankly it's how I honestly see it, I'd be much more direct if they stopped half of the fucking shite on a music orientated forum of all places, to be frank), so continuing talking about the whole topic of whether it was/wasn't anti-semitic, especially when it has been done to death in many places, is a very fast way to find out. Lets just say it was a shit move for Behringer to do regardless if it was offensive to jews or not.

So now you’ve made an allegation against a company about anti Semitism (I am Jewish by the way), and simply refuse to say what they said that was anti Semitic?

Right......
Gum is fun, but not on a cat.

My minds an art gallery.

User avatar
Red Electric Rainbow
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1635
Joined: Tue Sep 21, 2010 7:48 am
Location: Chicago

Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by Red Electric Rainbow » Wed May 27, 2020 8:24 am

this forum functions better as a whole when this thread is buried
TOO FAR GONE

User avatar
Shledge
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 3026
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 5:47 pm
Location: UK

Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by Shledge » Wed May 27, 2020 8:28 am

3hands wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 7:51 am
So now you’ve made an allegation against a company about anti Semitism (I am Jewish by the way), and simply refuse to say what they said that was anti Semitic?

Right......
Quit with the fucking strawmen, it's greasy. I didn't make any allegation. I said that some people did see it as anti-semitic and some didn't - unless I'm omnipotent and can control people's minds with lightning flying out of my arse to smite anyone who says the wrong thing, I can't stop others thinking that.

User avatar
strettara
mufferthucker
Posts: 6084
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2012 12:16 am
Location: getting better in your wardrobe

Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by strettara » Wed May 27, 2020 9:40 am

Shledge wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 8:28 am
unless I'm omnipotent and can control people's minds with lightning flying out of my arse to smite anyone who says the wrong thing, I can't stop others thinking that.
Only Kent can do that :hide:
"Music is man, described to man, in the language of things."
"A tape is interesting when it's an interesting tape."
"It must be abstract. It must change. It must give pleasure."

New EP: étude @ strettara.bandcamp

Make sure to visit The Avant Garde Project

User avatar
Shledge
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 3026
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 5:47 pm
Location: UK

Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by Shledge » Wed May 27, 2020 10:01 am

Don't mention his name! :help:

User avatar
Blairio
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1821
Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2013 9:50 pm
Location: Glasgow, Scotland

Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by Blairio » Wed May 27, 2020 10:12 am

KSS wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 3:49 am
Blairio wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 8:58 pm
That's the tantalising thing about this thread, it consumes itself on a regular basis - like a dog returning to its vomit.
Sometimes. But as with all things internet, it's also due to new arrivals who haven't read every post, and so don't have knowledge or context.

Really, it's true for more than the internet. More a general human condition. New people arriving at an understanding their forebears also thought was 'novel'. Older you get, the more you see it.

Longer on a forum, or in a field of work or experience, the more you see it too.

Back on topic, Behringer isn't doing anything new.
Fair point. I guess what concerns me is that this is a very useful forum (certainly has been for me) , and having a thread that acts as a lightning rod to attract all the polemic directed at a given manufacturer does not extend the forum's utility. I'm not sure what anyone (newcomer or old scroat like me) can learn from this thread that hasn't been fully articulated by the end of page 5.

User avatar
JayEm
Wiggling with Experience
Posts: 340
Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2010 10:28 pm
Location: London, ON

Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by JayEm » Wed May 27, 2020 10:28 am

Blairio wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 10:12 am
Fair point. I guess what concerns me is that this is a very useful forum (certainly has been for me) , and having a thread that acts as a lightning rod to attract all the polemic directed at a given manufacturer does not extend the forum's utility. I'm not sure what anyone (newcomer or old scroat like me) can learn from this thread that hasn't been fully articulated by the end of page 5.
the point of this thread is to keep its content out of other threads; behringer IS a manufacturer and they do make gear and prior to this thread every goddamned thread they were mentioned in seemed to end up derailed

the thread is working

if you don't see anything for you personally just don't read the thread anymore.
BandCamp Instagram
"peoples moist elbow cruxes, sodden with phlegm" - Joe.

User avatar
Red Electric Rainbow
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1635
Joined: Tue Sep 21, 2010 7:48 am
Location: Chicago

Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by Red Electric Rainbow » Wed May 27, 2020 12:49 pm

not sure if this thread actually belongs in the general gear subforum though. isnt there a more appropriate place for it? members only, etc?
TOO FAR GONE

KSS
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 2503
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 7:28 am

Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by KSS » Wed May 27, 2020 1:16 pm

Red Electric Rainbow wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 12:49 pm
not sure if this thread actually belongs in the general gear subforum though. isnt there a more appropriate place for it? members only, etc?
No. it's working very well right here. Being visible is part of its value in reducing the B-load of other threads.

I'm able to ignore plenty of threads showing up in my main page view. You could do the same for this one if it bothers you?

User avatar
Voltcontrol
Ravey Dave
Posts: 977
Joined: Thu Jan 25, 2018 1:31 pm
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by Voltcontrol » Wed May 27, 2020 1:20 pm

Red Electric Rainbow wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 12:49 pm
not sure if this thread actually belongs in the general gear subforum though. isnt there a more appropriate place for it? members only, etc?
Yeah. If this topic is indeed used as a lightning rod to separate out all discussion from Behringer gears threads that is not about the gear itself but about the make and its approach, it seems best kept in a publically available subforum. However, the tenure of the discussion often makes me wonder if it might be better kept in a members only area.

The recently linked Devilfish post gave great insight on the topic of this discussion and should be visible to all imho. But. That was posted in the MonoPoly thread iirc. I'll dig it up now.
Edit: It was on the previous page here;
rplktr wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 4:00 pm
.. the Devil Fish scandal showed the truly ugly side of it.

Life is too short to support jerks.

User avatar
3hands
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1026
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2018 6:36 pm
Location: Ottawa Ontario

Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by 3hands » Fri May 29, 2020 9:28 am

strettara wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 9:40 am
Shledge wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 8:28 am
unless I'm omnipotent and can control people's minds with lightning flying out of my arse to smite anyone who says the wrong thing, I can't stop others thinking that.
Only Kent can do that :hide:

Haha!
Gum is fun, but not on a cat.

My minds an art gallery.

User avatar
blw
Wiggling with Experience
Posts: 267
Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2015 8:30 pm

Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by blw » Fri May 29, 2020 9:34 am

3hands wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 7:51 am
So now you’ve made an allegation against a company about anti Semitism (I am Jewish by the way), and simply refuse to say what they said that was anti Semitic?
He's talking about this:

http://www.synthtopia.com/content/2020/ ... ournalist/

It's probably in this thread a few pages back.

User avatar
patched
Common Wiggler
Posts: 68
Joined: Mon Sep 23, 2019 12:42 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by patched » Fri May 29, 2020 5:22 pm

It was discussed earlier in this thread. You can probably find it by searching for "antisemitism" or "jew". There is absolutely no need to have that debate again.

User avatar
3hands
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1026
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2018 6:36 pm
Location: Ottawa Ontario

Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by 3hands » Fri May 29, 2020 6:05 pm

blw wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 9:34 am
3hands wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 7:51 am
So now you’ve made an allegation against a company about anti Semitism (I am Jewish by the way), and simply refuse to say what they said that was anti Semitic?
He's talking about this:

http://www.synthtopia.com/content/2020/ ... ournalist/

It's probably in this thread a few pages back.

Oh that! That was hands down the least anti Semitic thing I’ve ever read. As said above, no point delving back into that mess.
Gum is fun, but not on a cat.

My minds an art gallery.

User avatar
slumberjack
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1457
Joined: Sat Jun 13, 2015 2:27 am
Location: 44G
Contact:

Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by slumberjack » Sun May 31, 2020 12:08 am

Voltcontrol wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 1:20 pm
Red Electric Rainbow wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 12:49 pm
not sure if this thread actually belongs in the general gear subforum though. isnt there a more appropriate place for it? members only, etc?
Yeah. If this topic is indeed used as a lightning rod to separate out all discussion from Behringer gears threads that is not about the gear itself but about the make and its approach, it seems best kept in a publically available subforum. However, the tenure of the discussion often makes me wonder if it might be better kept in a members only area.

The recently linked Devilfish post gave great insight on the topic of this discussion and should be visible to all imho. But. That was posted in the MonoPoly thread iirc. I'll dig it up now.
Edit: It was on the previous page here;
rplktr wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 4:00 pm
.. the Devil Fish scandal showed the truly ugly side of it.

Life is too short to support jerks.
I'd probably took that 15k or maybe did try to negotiate 20 out of it even if it is as bitter pill to swallow.
And maybe I'd ask for one copy of each synth they copy...
> WTB ADDAC502 <

www.stefanrudin.bandcamp.com / www.soundcloud.com/stefan_rudin / www.youtube.com/user/slumberknut



Carefully crafted dj set meandering between deep house, minimal and electro.

User avatar
Voltcontrol
Ravey Dave
Posts: 977
Joined: Thu Jan 25, 2018 1:31 pm
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by Voltcontrol » Sun May 31, 2020 12:37 am

slumberjack wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 12:08 am
I'd probably took that 15k or maybe did try to negotiate 20 out of it even if it is as bitter pill to swallow.
And maybe I'd ask for one copy of each synth they copy...
Someone in this video sure seems to be happy with his 15k

KSS
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 2503
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 7:28 am

Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by KSS » Sun May 31, 2020 6:44 am

The DevilFish guy's monetary ask was too much in my opinion. And poorly presented, by using book industry standard to make a case in electronics mfg situation. It's understandable Uli wouldn't go for it.
But his desire -the DF guy- to have at least some control over the physical-mechanical quality of the result was well-founded. Moreso as we're starting to get reports of various glitches in Behringer's 100M and Boog55 modules. Along with tangible, visible examples of poor production processes or quality control.

The paper Geeks, Mops, and Sociopaths mskala first posted -and I've re-posted many times since- makes a point about the late cycle befriending of sub-culture creatives. Sub-culture here being synths. And Uli is pretty much following the playbook outlined in that paper.

User avatar
IR
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1555
Joined: Mon Jun 10, 2013 7:40 am

Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by IR » Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:00 am

blw wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 9:34 am
3hands wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 7:51 am
So now you’ve made an allegation against a company about anti Semitism (I am Jewish by the way), and simply refuse to say what they said that was anti Semitic?
He's talking about this:

http://www.synthtopia.com/content/2020/ ... ournalist/

It's probably in this thread a few pages back.
Also disgusting that he was attacking the person responsible for the MeeBlip synth and involved in the open source scene.

User avatar
Orange
Wiggling with Experience
Posts: 389
Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2016 3:57 pm
Location: The Hague - Holland

Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by Orange » Tue Jun 30, 2020 5:30 am

We all know this happens... ‘The good guys’ Korg, Roland, Yamaha and others betray their loyal customers. They do this for decades now. :foul:
I hope someone clones their stuff and sell it for cheap :party:

The title of this thread should be Synth manufacturers: practices,ethics......

—————————————————————————————————————
From Synthopia:
UK’s Competition and Markets Authority has announced that it has fined Korg UK & Roland UK a total of £5.5 million, in 2 separate cases, for restricting online discounting of musical instruments.

Each of the companies was fined fined for implementing resale price maintenance (RPM), essentially setting a minimal sales price for their products. While some argue that setting a minimum retail price protects smaller bricks and mortar music stores against big online retailers, RPM is illegal in the UK.

Separately, a retailer of musical instruments, GAK, has also admitted to engaging in RPM with Yamaha and agreed to pay a maximum fine of more than a quarter of a million pounds to settle the case. This is the first time the CMA has taken enforcement action against a retailer in a resale price maintenance case.

The fines follow earlier fines against Casio and Fender, bringing the total fines imposed by the Competition and Markets Authority (CMA) for this illegal conduct in the musical instrument sector to £13.7 million.

The CMA has also written to almost 70 manufacturers and retailers across the sector, warning them that the CMA suspects their online pricing arrangements may have been illegal and that they need to ensure they are complying with the law or potentially risk an investigation and fines. The CMA has not announced which companies it has sent warnings to. (Synthtopia has requested this information).

The CMA also issued these guidelines for manufacturers and retailers:

If you are a supplier:
You must not dictate the price at which your products are sold, either online or through other sales channels.
Policies that set a minimum advertised price for online sales can equate to RPM and are usually illegal.
You must not use or intimate the use of threats, financial incentives or take any other action, such as withholding supply or offering less favourable terms, to make retailers stick to recommended resale prices.
You cannot hide RPM agreements – restrictive pricing policies in business-to -business arrangements are illegal whether verbal or written. Equally you cannot try to use apparently legitimate policies (e.g. selective distribution agreements) to conceal RPM practices. You face higher fines if you do this.
You must take extra care if you use price monitoring software – monitoring your market position is legitimate, but you must not act on pricing information in a way that could limit your retailers’ freedom to set their own resale prices.
If you are a retailer:
You are entitled to and must set the price of the products you sell independently, whether online or through other sales channels.
Suppliers are not usually allowed to dictate the prices at which you sell or at which you advertise their products online.
If you have agreed to sell at fixed or minimum prices with your supplier, you may both be found to be breaking competition law.
You should not ask your supplier to influence your competitors’ prices – do not be tempted to push for consistent resale prices or to “police” RPM by reporting your competitors’ prices to your suppliers. If you instigate RPM conduct you can face higher fines and directors can risk being disqualified from managing companies.

User avatar
Virustian
Learning to Wiggle
Posts: 28
Joined: Sun May 01, 2016 6:46 am

Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by Virustian » Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:37 am

I don't think it's certain manufacturers specific behavior, it's how late capitalism functions (or not functions for most of us).

KL1982
Learning to Wiggle
Posts: 34
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:26 am
Location: UK

Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by KL1982 » Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:43 am

KSS wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 6:44 am
The DevilFish guy's monetary ask was too much in my opinion. And poorly presented, by using book industry standard to make a case in electronics mfg situation. It's understandable Uli wouldn't go for it.
But his desire -the DF guy- to have at least some control over the physical-mechanical quality of the result was well-founded. Moreso as we're starting to get reports of various glitches in Behringer's 100M and Boog55 modules. Along with tangible, visible examples of poor production processes or quality control.

The paper Geeks, Mops, and Sociopaths mskala first posted -and I've re-posted many times since- makes a point about the late cycle befriending of sub-culture creatives. Sub-culture here being synths. And Uli is pretty much following the playbook outlined in that paper.
I spoke to both Robin and Uli on this particular issue/I did my best to bring this one together (I was pulling a number of threads to try to help Robin), but it wasn't to be, for a number of reasons.

There's a little more to it than what has been written here/in this thread.

Shame. Could have been a nice product.

Post Reply

Return to “General Gear”