Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

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Voltcontrol
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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by Voltcontrol » Wed May 27, 2020 4:29 am

Only just noticed that our good friend Uli is expanding into the DJ/Dance production & performance domain.
"Behringer
15 May 04:47
We have now assembled our best and most passionate engineers from our 400+ global R&D team to develop a complete range of DJ equipment including samplers, groove boxes and controllers etc. to fully integrate with our upcoming free DAW whose development is already in full swing."
Gaun Yersel!

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by 3hands » Wed May 27, 2020 7:51 am

Shledge wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 9:59 pm
3hands wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 10:06 pm
Shledge wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 1:25 pm
3hands wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 12:20 pm
Shledge wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 7:59 pm
I just wish they didn't resort to greasy tactics (and arguably anti-semitic) because journalists were critical of them - they were on a good run with their synths and that alone speaks for itself, they were starting to change people's minds slowly but surely.

At that point I couldn't defend them any longer.

What anti Semitic things are you seeing? Not calling you out, I simply haven’t seen anything.
I don't wish to discuss it on here for obvious reasons, but it was a point of discussion (and contention) for quite a few people. Still really bad form even if it wasn't.
Please PM me then.
I don't see how pointing out a summary of what happened warrants PMing. If you're asking for my views on the matter or implying I am - a) I personally want to describe the situation objectively instead and b) I didn't bloody imply anything.

I've been in hot water over it in the past for being "political" (which seems to be incredibly wooly and inconsistent on MW, I'm aware saying that will annoy some mods but frankly it's how I honestly see it, I'd be much more direct if they stopped half of the fucking shite on a music orientated forum of all places, to be frank), so continuing talking about the whole topic of whether it was/wasn't anti-semitic, especially when it has been done to death in many places, is a very fast way to find out. Lets just say it was a shit move for Behringer to do regardless if it was offensive to jews or not.

So now you’ve made an allegation against a company about anti Semitism (I am Jewish by the way), and simply refuse to say what they said that was anti Semitic?

Right......
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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by Red Electric Rainbow » Wed May 27, 2020 8:24 am

this forum functions better as a whole when this thread is buried
TOO FAR GONE

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by Shledge » Wed May 27, 2020 8:28 am

3hands wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 7:51 am
So now you’ve made an allegation against a company about anti Semitism (I am Jewish by the way), and simply refuse to say what they said that was anti Semitic?

Right......
Quit with the fucking strawmen, it's greasy. I didn't make any allegation. I said that some people did see it as anti-semitic and some didn't - unless I'm omnipotent and can control people's minds with lightning flying out of my arse to smite anyone who says the wrong thing, I can't stop others thinking that.

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by strettara » Wed May 27, 2020 9:40 am

Shledge wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 8:28 am
unless I'm omnipotent and can control people's minds with lightning flying out of my arse to smite anyone who says the wrong thing, I can't stop others thinking that.
Only Kent can do that :hide:
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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by Shledge » Wed May 27, 2020 10:01 am

Don't mention his name! :help:

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by Blairio » Wed May 27, 2020 10:12 am

KSS wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 3:49 am
Blairio wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 8:58 pm
That's the tantalising thing about this thread, it consumes itself on a regular basis - like a dog returning to its vomit.
Sometimes. But as with all things internet, it's also due to new arrivals who haven't read every post, and so don't have knowledge or context.

Really, it's true for more than the internet. More a general human condition. New people arriving at an understanding their forebears also thought was 'novel'. Older you get, the more you see it.

Longer on a forum, or in a field of work or experience, the more you see it too.

Back on topic, Behringer isn't doing anything new.
Fair point. I guess what concerns me is that this is a very useful forum (certainly has been for me) , and having a thread that acts as a lightning rod to attract all the polemic directed at a given manufacturer does not extend the forum's utility. I'm not sure what anyone (newcomer or old scroat like me) can learn from this thread that hasn't been fully articulated by the end of page 5.

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by JayEm » Wed May 27, 2020 10:28 am

Blairio wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 10:12 am
Fair point. I guess what concerns me is that this is a very useful forum (certainly has been for me) , and having a thread that acts as a lightning rod to attract all the polemic directed at a given manufacturer does not extend the forum's utility. I'm not sure what anyone (newcomer or old scroat like me) can learn from this thread that hasn't been fully articulated by the end of page 5.
the point of this thread is to keep its content out of other threads; behringer IS a manufacturer and they do make gear and prior to this thread every goddamned thread they were mentioned in seemed to end up derailed

the thread is working

if you don't see anything for you personally just don't read the thread anymore.
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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by Red Electric Rainbow » Wed May 27, 2020 12:49 pm

not sure if this thread actually belongs in the general gear subforum though. isnt there a more appropriate place for it? members only, etc?
TOO FAR GONE

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by KSS » Wed May 27, 2020 1:16 pm

Red Electric Rainbow wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 12:49 pm
not sure if this thread actually belongs in the general gear subforum though. isnt there a more appropriate place for it? members only, etc?
No. it's working very well right here. Being visible is part of its value in reducing the B-load of other threads.

I'm able to ignore plenty of threads showing up in my main page view. You could do the same for this one if it bothers you?

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by Voltcontrol » Wed May 27, 2020 1:20 pm

Red Electric Rainbow wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 12:49 pm
not sure if this thread actually belongs in the general gear subforum though. isnt there a more appropriate place for it? members only, etc?
Yeah. If this topic is indeed used as a lightning rod to separate out all discussion from Behringer gears threads that is not about the gear itself but about the make and its approach, it seems best kept in a publically available subforum. However, the tenure of the discussion often makes me wonder if it might be better kept in a members only area.

The recently linked Devilfish post gave great insight on the topic of this discussion and should be visible to all imho. But. That was posted in the MonoPoly thread iirc. I'll dig it up now.
Edit: It was on the previous page here;
rplktr wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 4:00 pm
.. the Devil Fish scandal showed the truly ugly side of it.

Life is too short to support jerks.
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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by 3hands » Fri May 29, 2020 9:28 am

strettara wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 9:40 am
Shledge wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 8:28 am
unless I'm omnipotent and can control people's minds with lightning flying out of my arse to smite anyone who says the wrong thing, I can't stop others thinking that.
Only Kent can do that :hide:

Haha!
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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by blw » Fri May 29, 2020 9:34 am

3hands wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 7:51 am
So now you’ve made an allegation against a company about anti Semitism (I am Jewish by the way), and simply refuse to say what they said that was anti Semitic?
He's talking about this:

http://www.synthtopia.com/content/2020/ ... ournalist/

It's probably in this thread a few pages back.

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by patched » Fri May 29, 2020 5:22 pm

It was discussed earlier in this thread. You can probably find it by searching for "antisemitism" or "jew". There is absolutely no need to have that debate again.

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by 3hands » Fri May 29, 2020 6:05 pm

blw wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 9:34 am
3hands wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 7:51 am
So now you’ve made an allegation against a company about anti Semitism (I am Jewish by the way), and simply refuse to say what they said that was anti Semitic?
He's talking about this:

http://www.synthtopia.com/content/2020/ ... ournalist/

It's probably in this thread a few pages back.

Oh that! That was hands down the least anti Semitic thing I’ve ever read. As said above, no point delving back into that mess.
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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by slumberjack » Sun May 31, 2020 12:08 am

Voltcontrol wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 1:20 pm
Red Electric Rainbow wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 12:49 pm
not sure if this thread actually belongs in the general gear subforum though. isnt there a more appropriate place for it? members only, etc?
Yeah. If this topic is indeed used as a lightning rod to separate out all discussion from Behringer gears threads that is not about the gear itself but about the make and its approach, it seems best kept in a publically available subforum. However, the tenure of the discussion often makes me wonder if it might be better kept in a members only area.

The recently linked Devilfish post gave great insight on the topic of this discussion and should be visible to all imho. But. That was posted in the MonoPoly thread iirc. I'll dig it up now.
Edit: It was on the previous page here;
rplktr wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 4:00 pm
.. the Devil Fish scandal showed the truly ugly side of it.

Life is too short to support jerks.
I'd probably took that 15k or maybe did try to negotiate 20 out of it even if it is as bitter pill to swallow.
And maybe I'd ask for one copy of each synth they copy...
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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by Voltcontrol » Sun May 31, 2020 12:37 am

slumberjack wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 12:08 am
I'd probably took that 15k or maybe did try to negotiate 20 out of it even if it is as bitter pill to swallow.
And maybe I'd ask for one copy of each synth they copy...
Someone in this video sure seems to be happy with his 15k
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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by KSS » Sun May 31, 2020 6:44 am

The DevilFish guy's monetary ask was too much in my opinion. And poorly presented, by using book industry standard to make a case in electronics mfg situation. It's understandable Uli wouldn't go for it.
But his desire -the DF guy- to have at least some control over the physical-mechanical quality of the result was well-founded. Moreso as we're starting to get reports of various glitches in Behringer's 100M and Boog55 modules. Along with tangible, visible examples of poor production processes or quality control.

The paper Geeks, Mops, and Sociopaths mskala first posted -and I've re-posted many times since- makes a point about the late cycle befriending of sub-culture creatives. Sub-culture here being synths. And Uli is pretty much following the playbook outlined in that paper.

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by IR » Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:00 am

blw wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 9:34 am
3hands wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 7:51 am
So now you’ve made an allegation against a company about anti Semitism (I am Jewish by the way), and simply refuse to say what they said that was anti Semitic?
He's talking about this:

http://www.synthtopia.com/content/2020/ ... ournalist/

It's probably in this thread a few pages back.
Also disgusting that he was attacking the person responsible for the MeeBlip synth and involved in the open source scene.

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by Orange » Tue Jun 30, 2020 5:30 am

We all know this happens... ‘The good guys’ Korg, Roland, Yamaha and others betray their loyal customers. They do this for decades now. :foul:
I hope someone clones their stuff and sell it for cheap :party:

The title of this thread should be Synth manufacturers: practices,ethics......

—————————————————————————————————————
From Synthopia:
UK’s Competition and Markets Authority has announced that it has fined Korg UK & Roland UK a total of £5.5 million, in 2 separate cases, for restricting online discounting of musical instruments.

Each of the companies was fined fined for implementing resale price maintenance (RPM), essentially setting a minimal sales price for their products. While some argue that setting a minimum retail price protects smaller bricks and mortar music stores against big online retailers, RPM is illegal in the UK.

Separately, a retailer of musical instruments, GAK, has also admitted to engaging in RPM with Yamaha and agreed to pay a maximum fine of more than a quarter of a million pounds to settle the case. This is the first time the CMA has taken enforcement action against a retailer in a resale price maintenance case.

The fines follow earlier fines against Casio and Fender, bringing the total fines imposed by the Competition and Markets Authority (CMA) for this illegal conduct in the musical instrument sector to £13.7 million.

The CMA has also written to almost 70 manufacturers and retailers across the sector, warning them that the CMA suspects their online pricing arrangements may have been illegal and that they need to ensure they are complying with the law or potentially risk an investigation and fines. The CMA has not announced which companies it has sent warnings to. (Synthtopia has requested this information).

The CMA also issued these guidelines for manufacturers and retailers:

If you are a supplier:
You must not dictate the price at which your products are sold, either online or through other sales channels.
Policies that set a minimum advertised price for online sales can equate to RPM and are usually illegal.
You must not use or intimate the use of threats, financial incentives or take any other action, such as withholding supply or offering less favourable terms, to make retailers stick to recommended resale prices.
You cannot hide RPM agreements – restrictive pricing policies in business-to -business arrangements are illegal whether verbal or written. Equally you cannot try to use apparently legitimate policies (e.g. selective distribution agreements) to conceal RPM practices. You face higher fines if you do this.
You must take extra care if you use price monitoring software – monitoring your market position is legitimate, but you must not act on pricing information in a way that could limit your retailers’ freedom to set their own resale prices.
If you are a retailer:
You are entitled to and must set the price of the products you sell independently, whether online or through other sales channels.
Suppliers are not usually allowed to dictate the prices at which you sell or at which you advertise their products online.
If you have agreed to sell at fixed or minimum prices with your supplier, you may both be found to be breaking competition law.
You should not ask your supplier to influence your competitors’ prices – do not be tempted to push for consistent resale prices or to “police” RPM by reporting your competitors’ prices to your suppliers. If you instigate RPM conduct you can face higher fines and directors can risk being disqualified from managing companies.

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by Virustian » Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:37 am

I don't think it's certain manufacturers specific behavior, it's how late capitalism functions (or not functions for most of us).

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by KL1982 » Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:43 am

KSS wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 6:44 am
The DevilFish guy's monetary ask was too much in my opinion. And poorly presented, by using book industry standard to make a case in electronics mfg situation. It's understandable Uli wouldn't go for it.
But his desire -the DF guy- to have at least some control over the physical-mechanical quality of the result was well-founded. Moreso as we're starting to get reports of various glitches in Behringer's 100M and Boog55 modules. Along with tangible, visible examples of poor production processes or quality control.

The paper Geeks, Mops, and Sociopaths mskala first posted -and I've re-posted many times since- makes a point about the late cycle befriending of sub-culture creatives. Sub-culture here being synths. And Uli is pretty much following the playbook outlined in that paper.
I spoke to both Robin and Uli on this particular issue/I did my best to bring this one together (I was pulling a number of threads to try to help Robin), but it wasn't to be, for a number of reasons.

There's a little more to it than what has been written here/in this thread.

Shame. Could have been a nice product.

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by KSS » Wed Jul 15, 2020 6:34 am

These were deleted as being off topic in the thread title below, we were told to put them here instead. Usually moderators do this, but not this time. Some context wil be lost, but the points still remain.

So, Uli just posted photos of a 250KUSD ARP 2500 for sale and asked what we thought. Just after Ersatz reply in that thread, I posted this.

Re: W...T...F...BARP 2500?
Post by KSS » Mon Jul 13, 2020 4:31 pm
:popcorn:

We've seen this movie before, Uli.
Just another Behringer tease of a multitude of coming -some day- attractions.
UB-Xa??, How's that coming along? After promising to keep us updated, you stopped the conversation. Ignored requests for updates.
Where's the JP-8??
The BS-80?? At least that one has the right letters.
As others in the thread pointed out,
What about the B2600? Which was promised for this Spring. That promise waa made after the COVID pandemic, by you personally, so what's the alibi?
Think there was an Oscar?? and a few others in there too??

So many others before that get buzz, promises made and then radio silence. And now you want us to get excited about this?

Got a tip for you from The Yellow Brick Road. You know why.
"The roses in the -Behringer- window box have tilted to on side.
Every thing about this ---- was born to grow and die."

Because, Uli, at the end of the day, there's this.

"I've Seen That Movie Too"

I can see by your eyes you must be lying
When you think I don't have a clue
Baby you're crazy
If you think that you can fool me
Because I've seen that movie too

The one where the players are acting surprised
Saying love's just a four letter word
Between forcing smiles, with the knives in their eyes
Well their actions become so absurd

So keep your auditions for somebody
Who hasn't got so much to lose
`Cause you can tell by the lines I'm reciting
That I've seen that movie too

It's a habit I have, I don't get pushed around
Stop twinkling your star like you do
I'm not the blue print for all of your B films
Because I've seen that movie too

~Bernie Taupin, Elton John.
Last edited by KSS on Mon Jul 13, 2020 5:16 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by KSS » Wed Jul 15, 2020 6:40 am

Re: W...T...F...BARP 2500?
anselmi wrote: ? (A list of Behringer products with time lines and news dates)
Mon Jul 13, 2020 7:55 pm
look at the bottom of the list...
Jason Brock replied
I don't know what that list is exactly, or what the percentages mean. But I do know they announced their intentions to make a VCS3 a while ago, along with many others. But it hasn't been produced yet.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I wrote this.
Re: W...T...F...BARP 2500?

Post by KSS » Mon Jul 13, 2020 11:38 pm
The list is supposed to represent the likelihood of whether one of the items will actually see the wild. Looks like they're only showing the most recent news? Would be more useful to include their earliest reference too.

I've written before that Behringer seem to focus on cloning clones rather than originals. Which may mean in this case either the 5U set that Rob Keeble detailed in his blog? Or if Euro, they probably bought a set of CMS modules, and based something off them. If so there will be clues in the result as there have been similar clues with their other releases. Anyone else notice the items released nearly all have a recently produced 3rd party clone to work from? Going back to the minimoog reboot. Cue MME, Jasper for the Wasp, Devin's Pro1 clone, CMS 2606, Devilfish, etc.

Where no recent 3rd party clone already exist, they seem to have a harder time delivering.

They sell us on their purchase of an original with photos like the one in this thread to create g.a.s., then seem to -eventually- deliver something based on some other already existing project.

Much simpler to purchase and clone Phil's 2500-ish Euro modules, even if Rob K has something also 2500-like. Seb Moumon never said whether he decided to work with B on a 2500 project. But that's another already-cloned possible resource.

Like I wrote, we've seen this movie -a few times now- already.
:popcorn:

edit: Here's what Rob had to say a couple weeks ago. https://muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic ... 0#p3275930

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by KSS » Wed Jul 15, 2020 6:46 am

Pictures from gearnews.com were posted of a pin matrix Behringer shared and I wrote this about it. I als oincluded a supporting photo of a real Ghilmetti gold strip to illustrate my point about the down side to the size and shape of the Behringer effort.

Re: W...T...F...BARP 2500?

Post by KSS » Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:11 am
Again, a host of clones to draw their possible clone of a clone from.

That brown panel looks like SLA 3DP.

Those ultra-short pins don't look like much fun to patch in a crowded patchfield.

From a mechanical engineering standpoint the shorter pins require a shorter and more deeply curved gold-plated strip. You can see it in the photos compared to original -Ghilmetti, which this appears based on. Sealectro was in all the early EMS products.

The shorter, steeper curve of the strips will increase both the friction of patching and the required deformation of the strip. At the same time reducing contact area. All of which will have immediate and long-term downsides. Add to this the required thinner gold plating to meet a price point and you've got something that look a little like a duck, but isn't one at all.

It's a very good looking unit. But it's missing a deeper understanding of the original design and its merits.

Sounds and seems familiar where Behringer is concerned.

I've written before that I believe Uli understands his customer base well enough to know it doesn't have to be more duck-like. Looking like a duck is enough to keep the profits coming. and I'm *not* saying that in any kind of disparaging way! It's simply part and parcel of being a low-cost priority based mfr. Something B is *very* good at. We make the mistake when we assume otherwise. Uli knows what he's doing.

Here's a photo of some Ghilmetti strips. You can see how flat -and tall- they are compared to the Behringer proto? photo.

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