Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

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Red Electric Rainbow
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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by Red Electric Rainbow » Fri Jul 24, 2020 10:05 pm

KSS wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 9:38 pm
You answered your own question. You brushed your two reasons off like they don't matter. But they do. If they don't matter for you, that's great!
So you’re saying they matter and that they dont matter?

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by Chopper » Fri Jul 24, 2020 10:40 pm

3hands wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 11:46 am


If you’re talking pop music then no one is using hardware.

I’m speaking more of “our people”. Techno, ambient, experimental, or in my case dark waveish.
This is empirical statement is untrue on so many levels.

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by exper » Fri Jul 24, 2020 10:45 pm

Red Electric Rainbow wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 5:45 pm

what do you think he paid for his OG 303 or 101 back in the day? 50 quid a piece maybe? dont forget these treasure were once considered trash.
Oh, for sure. I paid $50 for my 808, $350 for a 202, and $150 for a 101 back in the mid 90's. Oh, and a 606 for $120.
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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by KSS » Fri Jul 24, 2020 11:12 pm

@everydaycurry
Do you have an understanding of the meaning of different? Different does not mean worse. You're putting things in my message I did not.

A little league player's home run means as much to them as does the one to a paid player.

I literally used the SIZE difference between LL and MLB because that's often the primary difference between Behringer and the OG models they bring to market.

The core problem you seem to have with my post is that you assume it's negative on Behringer, and you're creating logic and conclusions to make it so. Read it again as if I'm a Behringer fanboy and maybe you'll see things differently.

This thread is *not* about Behringer sound. Read the topic heading. It's about practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

When I wrote Uli isn't even trying to playt 'real' baseball I am talking about how accurate his aims are for his clones. Some people find them to be exactly right, other not so much. That's where you're trying to take the conversation. But that's exactly the same old dog and pony show I'm trying to steer away from.

Because -in answer to Red Electric Rainbow/s question, Yes! They matter *and* they don't matter. That's the whole point right there.

Because they ARE DIFFERENT.

If you care about the differences, then YES they matter. If you don't, then NO they don't. We're never going to get anywhere until we begin to understand that not everybody is after the same end.

And quit trying to convince each other that the other view is wrong. I find there is an extreme difference in playing an old minimoog and the Behringer module D. The integrated keyboard, size and movements of my hands and fingers are different for each one. Yours are too. But now we're back to whether that difference -which is impossible to say doesn't exist- matters. To YOU. Or to ME. Since that's a personal -and totally subjective- thing, there are going to be different answers.

If you can make good music within those differences Which ever field you choose, then that's good on you. If you can't then its good there are other options.

I don't care if you love or hate Behringer. I don't care if you think the clones are amazing or just junk.

I care that we stop confusing the tools with the music. Good music is made on all kinds of tools, including Behringer *and* the OG it is drawn from.

Don't try to fit me into your pre-conceived idea of how i'm supposed to feel about Behringer or their products. The baseball analogy only puts down Behringer if that's what you're already looking for.

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by everydaycurry » Fri Jul 24, 2020 11:20 pm

The statement you responded to was "it looks like it just evens the playing field for some of us that are less fortunate."

Your response was "nuh-uh, no they don't" and then the Little League metaphor. Of course you were saying that the "Little League" Behringer couldn't measure up as musical devices - if it's just about size then quite obviously they can "even the playing field" for people without $5k to drop on a vintage synth.

If it's just about size, you think a Behringer Poly-D is every bit as capable as the Minimoog then?

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by KSS » Fri Jul 24, 2020 11:27 pm

It's not just about size. What part of DIFFERENT is so hard to understand?

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by everydaycurry » Fri Jul 24, 2020 11:31 pm

Okay, so it's not size (you said it was size up above). If it's the keyboard... the Poly-D also has a keyboard.

So what is the "difference" that renders it incapable of "even[ing] the playing field" for people without vintage money?

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by KSS » Fri Jul 24, 2020 11:42 pm

My response was to emphasize "looks like".

And to begin to detail that there are differences.

I did not get into whether those differeces made music possible or impossible, that's your thing. You're defending an agenda I didn't intrude upon.

Look, i was the one who wrote the words, and I happen to lnow what I was tinking when I typed them. You can't change that with your misunderstanding of what I was saying.

I've tried to help you understand where I am coming from, but this latest post of yours still doesn't seem to hear it.

Two points were in my mind. First, that the "looks like" doesn't mean "is like". That they are different.
Second, that I wanted to put out there -again- a belief I hold that Uli isn't aiming for what I see many people saying he is aiming for. I've said it in different ways across a few threads.

Neither of those points is about the ability to make music with Behringer instruments. Because i can see both sides of the question and that each side has valid points. Besides, that's a 'religious' and divisive topic always, and especially where Behringer is concerned. -based on numerous posts in numerous B threads here and elsewhere online-

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by KSS » Fri Jul 24, 2020 11:43 pm

Please read the whole sentence. I said its not JUST about size.

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by KSS » Fri Jul 24, 2020 11:44 pm

I never said it was incapable of anything. I said they were different. The rest is your conversation with yourself. I'm out.

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by everydaycurry » Fri Jul 24, 2020 11:53 pm

KSS wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 11:42 pm
My response was to emphasize "looks like".

And to begin to detail that there are differences.
Your response was to a statement that was, obviously, about sound and music making, in the context of a conversation about sound and music making.

You gave a hard no to the idea that Behringers give people without $5k to spend "a taste of the vintage synths" - how would looks factor into that? Does the crap keyboard of a Pro One give it its value? The SH-101's lack of MIDI and wonky power jacks? Is it about the proper shade of red?

You didn't just say "but the Behringers are smaller and don't have keyboards." You gave a long-winded metaphor about superior and inferior versions of a sport.

Seems like you're trying real hard to not talk about sound now.

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by 3hands » Sat Jul 25, 2020 7:38 am

Chopper wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 10:40 pm
3hands wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 11:46 am


If you’re talking pop music then no one is using hardware.

I’m speaking more of “our people”. Techno, ambient, experimental, or in my case dark waveish.
This is empirical statement is untrue on so many levels.
And how, is this empirical statement, untrue on so many levels?
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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by diggida » Sun Jul 26, 2020 12:46 pm

3hands wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 7:38 am
Chopper wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 10:40 pm
3hands wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 11:46 am


If you’re talking pop music then no one is using hardware.

I’m speaking more of “our people”. Techno, ambient, experimental, or in my case dark waveish.
This is empirical statement is untrue on so many levels.
And how, is this empirical statement, untrue on so many levels?
I’m new around here and am not particularly invested in the Behringer debate, but I work in the music industry as a producer/songwriter and plenty of pop music uses hardware. Lots of real synthesizers, drum machines, modular, etc. Many producers strongly feel that these devices are more interesting and sound better than their software counterparts. Everyone I know that makes music here in LA(which I’ve been doing professionally for 20 years, so its quite a few people), has piles of gear.
Last edited by diggida on Sun Jul 26, 2020 12:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by 3hands » Sun Jul 26, 2020 3:57 pm

diggida wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 12:46 pm
3hands wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 7:38 am
Chopper wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 10:40 pm
3hands wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 11:46 am


If you’re talking pop music then no one is using hardware.

I’m speaking more of “our people”. Techno, ambient, experimental, or in my case dark waveish.
This is empirical statement is untrue on so many levels.
And how, is this empirical statement, untrue on so many levels?
I’m new around here and am not particularly invested in the Behringer debate, but I work in the music industry as a producer/songwriter and plenty of pop music uses hardware. Lots of real synthesizers, drum machines, modular, etc. Many producers strongly feel that these devices are more interesting and sound better than their software counterparts. Everyone I know that makes music here in LA(which I’ve been doing professionally for 20 years, so its quite a few people), has piles of gear.
Hey man!

Thank you so much for chiming in. That’s actually fantastic to hear! I, once again, stand corrected! (And happy to be wrong, as it means pop music is in a way better place than I thought it was).
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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by Red Electric Rainbow » Sun Jul 26, 2020 4:16 pm

diggida wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 12:46 pm
I’m new around here and am not particularly invested in the Behringer debate, but I work in the music industry as a producer/songwriter and plenty of pop music uses hardware. Lots of real synthesizers, drum machines, modular, etc. Many producers strongly feel that these devices are more interesting and sound better than their software counterparts. Everyone I know that makes music here in LA(which I’ve been doing professionally for 20 years, so its quite a few people), has piles of gear.
professional gear-headz :tu:
TOO FAR GONE

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by 3hands » Sun Jul 26, 2020 5:23 pm

Red Electric Rainbow wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 4:16 pm
diggida wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 12:46 pm
I’m new around here and am not particularly invested in the Behringer debate, but I work in the music industry as a producer/songwriter and plenty of pop music uses hardware. Lots of real synthesizers, drum machines, modular, etc. Many producers strongly feel that these devices are more interesting and sound better than their software counterparts. Everyone I know that makes music here in LA(which I’ve been doing professionally for 20 years, so its quite a few people), has piles of gear.
professional gear-headz :tu:
Woot!
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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by diggida » Sun Jul 26, 2020 10:44 pm

Oh, we’re all obsessed with gear, haha. All we talk about is amps and pedals and synths and compressors, blah blah blah. Some of it is the quest for gear that makes our jobs easier or more fun, but a lot of it is just the hunt everyone else is on! :-)

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by IR » Wed Jul 29, 2020 3:48 am

I just realised that after changing the name of the MS-101 to MS-1, they've completely copied the name of a Roland product.
Image

I guess the next step is to clone a Juno 60 and call it the Behringer TR-606.

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by Kent » Wed Jul 29, 2020 4:13 am

IR wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 3:48 am
I just realised that after changing the name of the MS-101 to MS-1, they've completely copied the name of a Roland product.
Image

I guess the next step is to clone a Juno 60 and call it the Behringer TR-606.
One of the reasons that model numbers are used is that they can't be trademarked, copyrighted, or protected in any manner. It makes things easier than naming something "WunderBadAzz2000" and going through the legal route of protecting that name.

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by Fallen_lassen » Wed Jul 29, 2020 4:38 am

They should just use BS and a number for all the products they copy/clone/steal
Bs-1
Bs-2
Bs-2w etc.

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by IR » Wed Jul 29, 2020 4:56 am

Kent wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 4:13 am
IR wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 3:48 am
I just realised that after changing the name of the MS-101 to MS-1, they've completely copied the name of a Roland product.
Image

I guess the next step is to clone a Juno 60 and call it the Behringer TR-606.
One of the reasons that model numbers are used is that they can't be trademarked, copyrighted, or protected in any manner. It makes things easier than naming something "WunderBadAzz2000" and going through the legal route of protecting that name.
On the other hand, it sure seems like they didn't want to keep using "101" because another piece of gear which kind of looks like it has the same number.

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by deb76 » Wed Jul 29, 2020 6:06 am

I am 73 years old and I have been practicing music since 1965 as a guitarist, electroacoustic music since 1968 and computer music since 1981 (40 days internship at IRCAM during the summer of 1981) and I have some equipment. purchased: guitars, amplifiers, effects boxes, synthesizers including EMS Synthy, Korg MS20, Yamaha SY99, Yamaha EX5R, Buchla 200e 19 elements, etc.), Mac and PC computers (the first being an Apple IIe 64k with two Mountain Hardware cards that turned it into 16 voice digital synthesizers). In short, I spent a fortune on hardware without forgetting music software, sheet music editors, utilities, etc. Well, today, as I work a lot more on contemporary musical writing, music theory and 20th and 21st century musical analysis, I have refocused on the material level. Well, I'm very happy to use Behringer's synths in addition to my instruments and virtual synths. At the moment I have a Deepmind12, a Model D and a Neutron. And I think I'll take a Poly D and who knows, if Behringer releases it as the Ems VCS3 clone. Because for what I see is that my Behringer synthesizers have a good quality of manufacture, and suit me perfectly for my musical creations. Concerning the ethics, the morals and the legitimacy of Behringer, I do not care. What I look at first and foremost is the tool and I can care about its brand. Because for me, the brands that sell music equipment - like Korg, Yamaha, Roland - are above all commercial companies.

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by 3hands » Wed Jul 29, 2020 9:44 pm

Kent wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 4:13 am
IR wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 3:48 am
I just realised that after changing the name of the MS-101 to MS-1, they've completely copied the name of a Roland product.
Image

I guess the next step is to clone a Juno 60 and call it the Behringer TR-606.
One of the reasons that model numbers are used is that they can't be trademarked, copyrighted, or protected in any manner. It makes things easier than naming something "WunderBadAzz2000" and going through the legal route of protecting that name.
I would buy wonder bad azz 2000 based solely on its name!
Gum is fun, but not on a cat.

My minds an art gallery.

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by Blairio » Thu Jul 30, 2020 12:45 am

The DAW I use is Cockos Reaper. One of its 'native' plugins is a sample playback module endearingly titled the

ReaSamploMatic5000 !

And its pretty good.

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by Kattefjaes » Sun Aug 09, 2020 4:10 pm

Fallen_lassen wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 4:38 am
They should just use BS and a number for all the products they copy/clone/steal
Bs-1
Bs-2
Bs-2w etc.
I mean, we're still all waiting to see the BS-80...

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