Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Any music gear discussions that don't fit into one of the other forums.

Moderators: lisa, luketeaford, Kent, Joe.

Post Reply
User avatar
SynthBaron
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 3317
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2009 2:43 am

Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by SynthBaron » Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:04 pm

UltraViolet wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 5:53 pm
It is also important to remember that part of the patent agreement that gives exclusive rights for a period of years also makes the idea free for anyone to use after the patent period expires. If Behringer copies something with an expired patent (like the Model D) then that is totally legit. However, that doesn't make stealing more recent ideas from others OK.
The only thing "patented" in the Model D would have been the Moog ladder filter. And that expired in 1986.

User avatar
3hands
Veteran Wiggler
Posts: 552
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2018 6:36 pm
Location: Ottawa Ontario

Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by 3hands » Fri Feb 07, 2020 9:00 pm

SynthBaron wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:00 pm
Flounderguts wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 5:32 pm
and I very much doubt a BevilBish clone will impact the miniscule mod market they have established, unless said mods cost over $500.
Devilfish mod prices start at $1236, not including shipping. Up to $3419 with all the refurbishment and highest level options done:

http://www.firstpr.com.au/rwi/dfish/prices-int/

And how much does that cost him to produce? Maybe 100 bucks all in?
Gum is fun, but not on a cat.

My minds an art gallery.

everydaycurry
Learning to Wiggle
Posts: 49
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2019 4:36 pm
Location: Houston

Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by everydaycurry » Fri Feb 07, 2020 9:12 pm

But he's doing it for the community.

tenembre
Common Wiggler
Posts: 235
Joined: Mon Jun 25, 2018 12:22 pm

Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by tenembre » Sat Feb 08, 2020 12:21 am

When a collection of electronic components is turned into a synth through human labor, its use-value as a musical instrument is clear and, as product, the synth remains tied to its material use. However, as soon as the synth emerges as a commodity, it changes into a thing which transcends sensuousness...[p]eople in a capitalist society thus begin to treat synthesizers as if value inhered in the synths themselves, rather than in the amount of real labor expended to produce the synth. This fetishization of the synthesizer shields us from alienation.

User avatar
SynthBaron
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 3317
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2009 2:43 am

Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by SynthBaron » Sat Feb 08, 2020 12:31 am

3hands wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 9:00 pm
SynthBaron wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:00 pm
Flounderguts wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 5:32 pm
and I very much doubt a BevilBish clone will impact the miniscule mod market they have established, unless said mods cost over $500.
Devilfish mod prices start at $1236, not including shipping. Up to $3419 with all the refurbishment and highest level options done:

http://www.firstpr.com.au/rwi/dfish/prices-int/

And how much does that cost him to produce? Maybe 100 bucks all in?
If he's working in consulting as his main gig, he obviously values his time quite highly per hour.

User avatar
strettara
mufferthucker
Posts: 5595
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2012 12:16 am
Location: das Land der eisernen Wurst

Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by strettara » Sat Feb 08, 2020 1:29 am

everydaycurry wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 9:12 pm
But he's doing it for the community.
There it is.

You know, I hadn't ever really given Behringer any thought before this thread cropped up, but it seems to me that if anyone is serving the "community" by making their tools available at a reasonable price point, it is Behringer. I have yet to see any convincing argument against that point of view in this thread.
tenembre wrote:
Sat Feb 08, 2020 12:21 am
When a collection of electronic components is turned into a synth through human labor, its use-value as a musical instrument is clear and, as product, the synth remains tied to its material use. However, as soon as the synth emerges as a commodity, it changes into a thing which transcends sensuousness...[p]eople in a capitalist society thus begin to treat synthesizers as if value inhered in the synths themselves, rather than in the amount of real labor expended to produce the synth. This fetishization of the synthesizer shields us from alienation.
Ahhh, the golden words! :yay: :yay: :yay: Nicely done.
nature abhors a vacuum cleaner

User avatar
StillNotWorking
Wiggling with Experience
Posts: 470
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2013 3:29 pm
Contact:

Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by StillNotWorking » Sat Feb 08, 2020 5:19 am

strettara wrote:
Sat Feb 08, 2020 1:29 am
You know, I hadn't ever really given Behringer any thought before this thread cropped up, but it seems to me that if anyone is serving the "community" by making their tools available at a reasonable price point, it is Behringer. I have yet to see any convincing argument against that point of view in this thread.
I will not argue that. But I would like to pay more and get more using better components and have piece of mind that the pore soul building the shit could put roof over her head and feed her children, — if even allowed to have children and still hold her job position.

With regards to farcical those taking paid for building and modifying for others. I do tinker with stuff and get asked multiple times if I can make or mod for them but I have to decline. For reason you are making fun of Devil Fish I would have to charge similar prices which the item in question is not worth. I could do it for free for a friend but to others I don't know and do not own shit and that know I will have to support later I would change what I do in my day job to be motivated.

User avatar
Suineder
Learning to Wiggle
Posts: 43
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2012 12:43 am
Location: Illinois

Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by Suineder » Sat Feb 08, 2020 6:28 am

tenembre wrote:
Sat Feb 08, 2020 12:21 am
When a collection of electronic components is turned into a synth through human labor, its use-value as a musical instrument is clear and, as product, the synth remains tied to its material use. However, as soon as the synth emerges as a commodity, it changes into a thing which transcends sensuousness...[p]eople in a capitalist society thus begin to treat synthesizers as if value inhered in the synths themselves, rather than in the amount of real labor expended to produce the synth. This fetishization of the synthesizer shields us from alienation.
Lol, nice marxposting. :tu:

KSS
Ultra Wiggler
Posts: 875
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 7:28 am

Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by KSS » Sat Feb 08, 2020 6:53 am

strettara wrote:
Sat Feb 08, 2020 1:29 am
You know, I hadn't ever really given Behringer any thought before this thread cropped up, but it seems to me that if anyone is serving the "community" by making their tools available at a reasonable price point, it is Behringer. I have yet to see any convincing argument against that point of view in this thread.
In StillNotWorking's reply -just below yours- you get a good first pass answer to your question.

Here's some more explanation: https://meaningness.com/geeks-mops-sociopaths

This was posted on MW by mskala some time ago, and I've re-posted it a couple times since. It may be the best example of how many see Behringer's entry into the "community", and also why there are such different reactions to Behringer's motives and practices.

mskala is for sure a geek -as defined in that link- and his Northcoastsynthesis.com ? website should IMO be read by anyone and everyone seeking real knowledge of synthesizers. And some pretty cool modules. He's operating at the other end of the spectrum from Behringer, and so receives similar disdain level, but for entirely different reasons. I have no financial or other connection with him, but do hope others will purchase his products in quantities sufficient to enable his continuing to innovate and teach. While not in complete agreement with everything he writes, it is clear that he has taken the time to explain and defend his mfg choices and personal positions well.

User avatar
strettara
mufferthucker
Posts: 5595
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2012 12:16 am
Location: das Land der eisernen Wurst

Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by strettara » Sat Feb 08, 2020 7:49 am

KSS wrote:
Sat Feb 08, 2020 6:53 am
strettara wrote:
Sat Feb 08, 2020 1:29 am
You know, I hadn't ever really given Behringer any thought before this thread cropped up, but it seems to me that if anyone is serving the "community" by making their tools available at a reasonable price point, it is Behringer. I have yet to see any convincing argument against that point of view in this thread.
In StillNotWorking's reply -just below yours- you get a good first pass answer to your question.

Here's some more explanation: https://meaningness.com/geeks-mops-sociopaths
Interesting.

I'd just point out though that unless we all buy boutique goods in almost any area of our lives, the conditions of labour that produce the goods we all use every day are pretty much the same across the board; Behringer isn't anything special in that regard. And as an example, I'm not about to spend 300 euro on a handmade shirt made of zero km fabrics, as I see some hipster cycling companies are offering these days. It's a nice dream but it's not realistic, although maybe it will be in the future when we're all rich and 3D printing all our stuff, who knows.

I would argue that change for the better is very seldom revolutionary or quick, but is rather generational, or at least, spans decades. Those workers making consumer goods in poor conditions now are the consumers of the present and, increasingly, of the future and potentially customers for boutique products eventually.

All of the above is of course very simplistic, but I don't see how any manufacturer wanting to compete and offer products to a mass market could be organised differently. I agree that it's not an ideal situation.
nature abhors a vacuum cleaner

KL1982
Learning to Wiggle
Posts: 19
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:26 am
Location: UK

Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by KL1982 » Sat Feb 08, 2020 8:27 am

The debate can be seen both ways.

Uli's business model has certainly created tension/division within the community - which isn't necessarily a bad thing.

The issue is no different from the boutique candle shop in the local village that sells candles for $20 each. Uli has costed the candles at $1 per unit, and is selling them at $2. Naturally, the candle shop owner is very annoyed at this, given the profit margins they have operated under. The illusion of inherently superior quality of the boutique candle is also difficult to maintain, given both candles are from China. This is no different to synth manufacturing; as much as some of us like to believe there is something inherently superior in certain equipment, ultimately we have to be honest and admit that the components in our Buchla system are from the same country as the components in Uli's synths.

Many synth/modular companies may collapse as a consequence of the changing market. Or rather, they'll have to operate under different conditions. But this is no different from how the establishment of the recording industry negatively impacted on musicians.


If the profit margins of boutique manufacturers are affected, those manufacturers have two choices:

1) Close shop, or
2) Continue to produce equipment in their spare time.

If the intrinsic motivation is money, they'll close shop. If the intrinsic motivation is contributing to the community, they'll happily produce equipment in their spare time - no different from the musician with a day-job who devotes his spare time in the evenings to his music. If musicians were only to produce music when profit reached a certain level, there would be little-to-zero music in the world. If boutique manufacturers wish to contribute to the community, they can continue to do so if they choose - but may well have to accept that yes, perhaps they shouldn't rely on paying their mortgage from their current business model.


Personally, I applaud Uli for what he is doing. And I'm sure others here who have friends in parts of the world where $200 is close to a monthly wage also applaud Uli in his democratization of the market. The market for high-end/boutique equipment still exists.


Rival companies folding/closing shop is a choice they are free to make. But the option always exists for them to lower their margins and work on developing products in their spare time. Maybe they shouldn't be charging as much. Maybe they should have a day job and pursue this as a passion.

Maybe they have 'got away with it' for long enough, and the market are starting to question why they paid $20 for a candle in the first place.


Kris

User avatar
StillNotWorking
Wiggling with Experience
Posts: 470
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2013 3:29 pm
Contact:

Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by StillNotWorking » Sat Feb 08, 2020 8:31 am

KSS wrote:
Sat Feb 08, 2020 6:53 am
Here's some more explanation: https://meaningness.com/geeks-mops-sociopaths
Enjoyed reading this. I could set name to some of the trends and companies responsible :hihi:

We all have a little saying in how this progress. As an example 1/3 largest grocery chain over here took a massive loss when focusing only on large central procurement over reginal manufacturers. When enough of us small consumers all over the country decided to support short traveled food doing our dayly grocery shopping they did a massive turnaround to gain consumer trust again.

User avatar
StillNotWorking
Wiggling with Experience
Posts: 470
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2013 3:29 pm
Contact:

Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by StillNotWorking » Sat Feb 08, 2020 8:44 am

KL1982 wrote:
Sat Feb 08, 2020 8:27 am
The debate can be seen both ways.
...
Kris
Thing is history is repeating itself. Last time we saw B move into new market shops closed and degreating of product quality for those trying to survive. There are not doubt B are holding the upper hand owning its own "city" of production facilities. If there is to come a new wave of low cost instruments to compete it can't come from China the way I see it.

Consequence will be closed shops and nearly everything else has to be labeled boutique or be build with even cheaper parts. Eather case we all loose, even B in the end when China no longer will be the center hub of low cost when forcing those who want to take on the competition to look elsewhere.

User avatar
Altitude909
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 3254
Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2011 5:13 pm
Location: Meesheegan

Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by Altitude909 » Sat Feb 08, 2020 8:55 am

KSS wrote:
Sat Feb 08, 2020 6:53 am
..
Here's some more explanation: https://meaningness.com/geeks-mops-sociopaths
..
"Be slightly evil"

haha

The page is spot on. Seen it happen more than once

KSS
Ultra Wiggler
Posts: 875
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 7:28 am

Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by KSS » Sat Feb 08, 2020 9:11 am

KL1982 wrote:
Sat Feb 08, 2020 8:27 am
This is no different to synth manufacturing; as much as some of us like to believe there is something inherently superior in certain equipment, ultimately we have to be honest and admit that the components in our Buchla system are from the same country as the components in Uli's synths
Yes, they may be from the same country. But does stating that truth make them the same?
Nope. If we're truly honest we'll admit that regardless of country of origin, a resistor -or *any* other component, from PCB to wire, wood, to metal- is capable of being made in different quality levels. Even if they all come from China. Anyone involved in purchasing from China -or any other country, and any other product- knows this. The same looking thing can be made better or worse. That's the fact missed when people try to generalize all parts coming from -pick your preferred source locale- are the same.

If you need examples, there are enough to keep you busy the rest of your life. Take resistors as one example. Right now, you can buy resistors from China which have thin, brittle leads, AND you can buy resistors from China which are as good -with robust, non-brittle leads- as any from Japan, Europe or USA.

FWIW, I'm old enough to remember when Japan, not China, was the "cheap crap source" for everything. Countries tend to step up their game over time. Go back far enough and almost every country or locale was known as the crap source for something. California wine is one example. Would you say that all wine from California -or France- is equal quality?

It's foolish to think that all products made of a type are "the same." Another example from the DFish-Behr email stream is the sealed tact switches and specific pots DF wanted to use, and the ones of less quality that DF wanted to avoid by asking for that specific type as part of negotiations. It's not only a case of unsealed and sealed either! I can buy crap sealed tact switches and fantastic unsealed tact switches. From China. Or from other countries.

Things like contact material and dimension are easily changed -in the best case- or manipulated -in the worst case- to achieve a certain price point and use life.

Here's another example: When the now ubiquitous 3.5mm jack as used on the TTSH -and first made popular in the USA as Flight of Harmony jacks, later updated to Intellijack AKA Thonkicon- entered the market they had poor material in the switch-normal leg. It quickly fatigued with use and stopped connecting reliably. Those jacks became crap for any situation where that normal switch was used. In that case, the manufacturer changed from phosphor bronze to berylium copper -or it might have just been a better phosphor bronze, it's been awhile- to fix the problem. Same jacks can right now be bought in two types, which look exactly alike once installed. One has a round threaded portion which can be pulled from the jack body, the other has a squared portion on the threaded boos to prevent being pulled out. BOTH ARE CHINESE. Intellijack-Thonkicon have two fewer solder-physical connections to a PCB compared to the "flight" jacks. Both look the same from the front panel. Once cost more in both purchase and installation, due to the extra connections. The PCB for one can cost more than the other. Whether this matters depends upon too many factors to go into here.

We have simply GOT TO STOP TRYING TO COMPARE DIFFERENT THINGS AS IF THEY ARE THE SAME. Details matter. That's not rhetoric, or preference. It's truth.

The second portion of a product cost often overlooked is the support you do or don't get when something goes wrong. This *should* be reflected in the price, and often is, but we all know that even 'good' companies fail sometimes in this. But here's a question I asked in another thread that no one's anwered yet.

How tough -or not- is it to get service on Behringer's stated three year warranty?? Simply offering 3 years means little if the actual practice and result is poor. Product support costs money.

KL1982
Learning to Wiggle
Posts: 19
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:26 am
Location: UK

Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by KL1982 » Sat Feb 08, 2020 9:13 am

StillNotWorking wrote:
Sat Feb 08, 2020 8:44 am
Thing is history is repeating itself. Last time we saw B move into new market shops closed
This is possibly a misattribution. The high street landscape across all sectors has been in flux for years - not due to Behringer, but due to a change in shopping habits i.e online shopping.

The last time I visited my local high street music store (before it closed, no less), the shop owners were pointing the finger at amazon & Thomann.

I'd be careful RE attributing 'blame' to a single source.




StillNotWorking wrote:
Sat Feb 08, 2020 8:44 am
and degreating of product quality for those trying to survive.
Presently, an eye-opener would be the general public having a list of every synth company, and where their parts/components are sourced/manufactured.

The list reads 'China'.


StillNotWorking wrote:
Sat Feb 08, 2020 8:44 am
There are not doubt B are holding the upper hand owning its own "city" of production facilities.
Therefore shouldn't Uli be applauded for his understanding of market trends/direction, and capitalizing on this at an early stage by developing a model that could/likely would have been developed by a rival?


StillNotWorking wrote:
Sat Feb 08, 2020 8:44 am
If there is to come a new wave of low cost instruments to compete it can't come from China the way I see it.
I'm unsure what data you are attributing this position to.


StillNotWorking wrote:
Sat Feb 08, 2020 8:44 am
Consequence will be closed shops
This is happening anyway, and has been for years.


StillNotWorking wrote:
Sat Feb 08, 2020 8:44 am
and nearly everything else has to be labeled boutique or be build with even cheaper parts. Eather case we all loose, even B in the end when China no longer will be the center hub of low cost when forcing those who want to take on the competition to look elsewhere.
Again, I'm unsure what you are basing the above on.



PS I use equipment from so-called 'boutique' manufacturers (i.e I'm not speaking from bias) - but we should view the issue objectively.

If the purchaser/market decides companies are charging too much, those companies will collapse.

KL1982
Learning to Wiggle
Posts: 19
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:26 am
Location: UK

Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by KL1982 » Sat Feb 08, 2020 9:20 am

KSS wrote:
Sat Feb 08, 2020 9:11 am

We have simply GOT TO STOP TRYING TO COMPARE DIFFERENT THINGS AS IF THEY ARE THE SAME. Details matter. That's not rhetoric, or preference. It's truth.
Agreed.

Therefore you should contact Buchla etc and ask them from what factory in China their parts are manufactured, also do the same with Behringer, then compare parts etc.

Without the data, we are simply speculating that a company who charges more is sourcing higher quality parts.



KSS wrote:
Sat Feb 08, 2020 9:11 am
The second portion of a product cost often overlooked is the support you do or don't get when something goes wrong. This *should* be reflected in the price, and often is, but we all know that even 'good' companies fail sometimes in this. But here's a question I asked in another thread that no one's anwered yet.

How tough -or not- is it to get service on Behringer's stated three year warranty?? Simply offering 3 years means little if the actual practice and result is poor. Product support costs money.
I haven't needed to return any Behringer product I've owned, therefore the answer to your question from my position is 'I don't know how difficult it is to get service on the stated warranty terms, as I've never needed it'.

KSS
Ultra Wiggler
Posts: 875
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 7:28 am

Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by KSS » Sat Feb 08, 2020 9:24 am

KL1982 wrote:
Sat Feb 08, 2020 8:27 am
Rival companies folding/closing shop is a choice they are free to make. But the option always exists for them to lower their margins and work on developing products in their spare time. Maybe they shouldn't be charging as much. Maybe they should have a day job and pursue this as a passion.
Or to raise their game -and perhaps prices also and quit competing in a race to the bottom. Am not saying there's any problem with making inexpensive items. Just as I'm not saying there's a problem with making expsnive things. The important distinction I am making is that there *is* a problem in saying that if parts are the same -both components, and sound- then it's *all* the same.

By the way, why is your only example to meet the low cost provider? I don't think Lamborghioni much cares how many Hyundai;s are sold. Where we do agree is that every mgr has options. And choices.
Maybe they have 'got away with it' for long enough, and the market are starting to question why they paid $20 for a candle in the first place.Kris
Selling something people want and agree to pay for, is *not* 'getting away with it'. Any more than finding corners to cut to produce something less expensive (which may still have adequate performance and excellent value). Would use an automotive analogy of good vs cheap cars, but many of the once crap cars are not so bad anymore.

The point is not to say cheap is bad, expensive is better. Or the reverse. The point is to learn and discern the *real* difference(s) so you're makng an informed choice.

KL1982
Learning to Wiggle
Posts: 19
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:26 am
Location: UK

Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by KL1982 » Sat Feb 08, 2020 9:34 am

KSS wrote:
Sat Feb 08, 2020 9:24 am
KL1982 wrote:
Sat Feb 08, 2020 8:27 am
Rival companies folding/closing shop is a choice they are free to make. But the option always exists for them to lower their margins and work on developing products in their spare time. Maybe they shouldn't be charging as much. Maybe they should have a day job and pursue this as a passion.
Or to raise their game -and perhaps prices also and quit competing in a race to the bottom. Am not saying there's any problem with making inexpensive items. Just as I'm not saying there's a problem with making expsnive things. The important distinction I am making is that there *is* a problem in saying that if parts are the same -both components, and sound- then it's *all* the same.

By the way, why is your only example to meet the low cost provider? I don't think Lamborghioni much cares how many Hyundai;s are sold. Where we do agree is that every mgr has options. And choices.
Maybe they have 'got away with it' for long enough, and the market are starting to question why they paid $20 for a candle in the first place.Kris
Selling something people want and agree to pay for, is *not* 'getting away with it'. Any more than finding corners to cut to produce something less expensive (which may still have adequate performance and excellent value). Would use an automotive analogy of good vs cheap cars, but many of the once crap cars are not so bad anymore.

The point is not to say cheap is bad, expensive is better. Or the reverse. The point is to learn and discern the *real* difference(s) so you're makng an informed choice.

My friend I'm very aware of your points - hence I initially said the issue can be seen both ways.

Of course, the manuscript for Wagner's Tristan has more value than the pen/ink/paper used.

But this leads to the argument from innovation. And many companies aren't innovating.


RE your Lamborghini point - yes, of course. Therefore boutique manufacturers shouldn't have any worry with respect their business model/customer base.

But if the customer decides they no longer want nor need a Lamborghini, said company will collapse.

KSS
Ultra Wiggler
Posts: 875
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 7:28 am

Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by KSS » Sat Feb 08, 2020 9:56 am

KL1982 wrote:
Sat Feb 08, 2020 9:20 am
Therefore you should contact Buchla etc and ask them from what factory in China their parts are manufactured, also do the same with Behringer, then compare parts etc.

Without the data, we are simply speculating that a company who charges more is sourcing higher quality parts.
For those of us buying parts, both Chinese and otherwise, and with exerience of many years doing so, it is *not* speculation. Some things are easy to spot, others require a deeper look. Still others require time to show their true quality. (And I am *not* saying that true quality is based on price only. Not at all!) And it's important to say that a 300USD product doesn't necessarily need the same parts and choices as one aimed at a3kUSD market.
I haven't needed to return any Behringer product I've owned, therefore the answer to your question from my position is 'I don't know how difficult it is to get service on the stated warranty terms, as I've never needed it'.
Thank you. That's a useful data point.

In an earlier post you asked if Uli should be noted for seeing market trends, etc. I have respect for Uli's ability to do business in a financially successful way. Have written more than once of his earning the ability to be where he is. That doesn't mean I agree with his moves in the topics of this thread.

There is a need for "Two Buck Chuck" wine. And there is a need for something better. Contrary to opinions often seen in synth forums, one can drink both. Each has their place, and they are not mutually exclusive. But they -and the path they took to get to our lips- *are* different.

This is not an elitist stance. Any more than choosing a pickup over a sedan when moving something. They are different and suited to different purpose. There *is* overlap between their functions.

As you previously agreed, we need to honestly evaluate the actual differences -if any- and make good choices. We can't do that if we take 'looks the same' to mean *is* the same.

KL1982
Learning to Wiggle
Posts: 19
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:26 am
Location: UK

Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by KL1982 » Sat Feb 08, 2020 10:12 am

KSS wrote:
Sat Feb 08, 2020 9:56 am

For those of us buying parts, both Chinese and otherwise, and with exerience of many years doing so, it is *not* speculation. Some things are easy to spot, others require a deeper look. Still others require time to show their true quality. (And I am *not* saying that true quality is based on price only. Not at all!) And it's important to say that a 300USD product doesn't necessarily need the same parts and choices as one aimed at a3kUSD market.
Again, I agree with you.

But we can't say that an Easel uses higher quality parts than, say, a Behringer Model D if we don't have the bare-bones data RE components.

Often directed at Uli is the argument RE parts quality. If that is the argument, we should have the data across the entire synth sector RE parts, otherwise we are engaging in speculation.


PS the most problems I've had in recent years with synths is with Arturia equipment, and with a Buchla Easel. So much so that I took the Easel apart, used it for an art exhibit, then binned it.

I've had no problems with Behringer equipment. But perhaps I'm lucky.



KSS wrote:
Sat Feb 08, 2020 9:56 am
As you previously agreed, we need to honestly evaluate the actual differences -if any- and make good choices. We can't do that if we take 'looks the same' to mean *is* the same.
Yes, absolutely. In full agreement with you here.

But keep in mind that for a certain sector of the market, they don't have the privilege of choice (i.e choice is based on a small disposable income). They choose what they can afford - and Uli is filling that space.


Best
Kris

KSS
Ultra Wiggler
Posts: 875
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 7:28 am

Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by KSS » Sat Feb 08, 2020 10:26 am

Yes friend, we do agree on much. Hopefully this is less about argument and more about exposition. That's the place I'm writing from. Or trying to 8-)

It's not the Lambo level that feels the strain of a new low end entry to the market. The top end will always have their buyers. And along with that will always have their detractors. Both SJW and otherwise. It's the middle of the pack and below that gets most shook up in a shift like Behringer is creating.

To bring it back personal, it's a reason I'm still holding onto that vintage synth IP I referred to earlier. Because now that Behringer is in the room, the middle ground is much more sensitive than it was. So do I go full-on boutique Knifonium style, or go with something more affordable? Knowing full well that if I do a good job -at either price point, at least one of my units will be purchased by Behringer, and copied. I have to move with this as a potential reality. The Dfish-Behr exchange proves it. I know B is working on at least one product related to this. Was actually hoping they'd reveal at NAMM. But they didn't. Yet.

Just saw your most recent reply. Yes, he is filling that space. No problem. The trick is determining how far up the slope that effect/space goes.

User avatar
bitflip
Veteran Wiggler
Posts: 735
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2014 10:19 pm
Location: in the series of tubes

Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by bitflip » Sat Feb 08, 2020 11:14 am

As a friendly reminder, Lamborghini is part of Volkswagen Auto Group (VAG), a big tent under which you'll find VW, Audi, Porsche, Lamborghini, Bentley, Bugatti, Ducati, Seat, Skoda... and a few others. VAG is well diversified and adaptive, with a revenue of over 230 billion Euro. Worlds apart, but perhaps B is working a long game to stretch its branding across the cost spectrum like VAG? Time will tell, but it seems that the most successful global business ventures do indeed aim to serve every market niche, including those that are borderline breakeven, even in the long game.

In any case, i'm enjoying this discussion now that some whiners have been dismissed :yay:
Last edited by bitflip on Sat Feb 08, 2020 11:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
aroom
Veteran Wiggler
Posts: 736
Joined: Wed Jun 24, 2015 3:27 am
Location: Switzerland
Contact:

Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by aroom » Sat Feb 08, 2020 11:17 am

yes - we - can

what a refreshing discussion. thanks guys!

now I'll return to my goats

User avatar
SynthBaron
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 3317
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2009 2:43 am

Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by SynthBaron » Sat Feb 08, 2020 12:04 pm

StillNotWorking wrote:
Sat Feb 08, 2020 8:31 am
KSS wrote:
Sat Feb 08, 2020 6:53 am
Here's some more explanation: https://meaningness.com/geeks-mops-sociopaths
Enjoyed reading this. I could set name to some of the trends and companies responsible :hihi:
Also thanks for the link.

It's probably harder for a modular company to make a profit now then around 2008 before things started to really take off. You must bring something unique to the table now, there's too much competition not to. So many of these companies look like they got into it just to make a buck way before Behringer even announced it was thinking about bottom dollar clones. You essentially have the choice of building a digital hardware module or releasing a VCV Rack plugin, and the latter seems to be a better investment of your creative time and effort.

Post Reply

Return to “General Gear”