Why buy used at recent market prices?

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Re: Why buy used at recent market prices?

Post by Flounderguts » Sun Sep 13, 2020 5:27 pm

ObfuscatedVisuals wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 3:19 pm

Another reason I might by used even though cost new is the same is if the new item is overseas.
Pardon me while I hijack the thread for a moment...

This is a very salient point. Us "murricans" are taught from an early age that the world revolves around us, and the only good things come from here...no matter where they actually come from.

Formats like MU and Buchla and Serge notwithstanding, I'd like to point out that EUROrack is the dominant format, and it really is based in europe. Sourcing metric aluminum profiles for rack pieces teaches you quickly that such profiles ARE NOT a domestic item.

Although we all like to think we're global citizens (although most people don't actually travel much, or very far), the unforeseen impacts of our global pandemic is having stark effects on the global logistics and global supply chains. Shipping prices have risen very sharply, and service has plummeted just as much.

so, yes...ordering from overseas is currently much more fraught than just 10 months ago, and given the free -- or low-cost -- shipping that even small companies can bring from the economies of scale in e-commerce, it seems almost ludicrous to purchase a bit of used gear from overseas, and have to pay the ruinous rates to get it to your doorstep, possibly not in one piece. That's where our Perfect Circuits and SynthCubes come in...and as synths are a painfully upper middle class hobby, the cost for a new module over the doubt of a used is negligible.

I've been trying to figure out how to implement something like a module "library." Brick and mortar modular shops are few and far between, and many of us who get into this are hours and hours of flying or driving from *any* place to try out modules. It would be nice to try before you buy...or something to that effect.

I'm sorry to report that the best way to do it is probably to move to [insert european country here]

ok, I'll shut up now.
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Re: Why buy used at recent market prices?

Post by Minimoog56 » Sun Sep 13, 2020 5:35 pm

Reverb has been terrible lately. I was in the market for a Shure mic that is $399 new and all the used mics were selling at $360-450! Plus you have taxes and shipping on top. You can usually get what you want with an offer including ship at 70-80% new but you have to be patient. There used to be an unspoken rule on this forum that you offer at 80% for current production available items but that has gone out the window a while ago.
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Re: Why buy used at recent market prices?

Post by Kattefjaes » Sun Sep 13, 2020 5:44 pm

Flounderguts wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 5:27 pm
so, yes...ordering from overseas is currently much more fraught than just 10 months ago
It is, it's a car crash. We UKnians have it easy until the end of the year, next day courier from the EU still works fine, but anything involving outgoing USPS? Forget it. Anything involving incoming Royal Mail? Forget it.

Yes, massive sympathy for all my synth nerd brothers/sisters/other on this one. I mind less if it's a $26 Takaab 2LPG from Thailand, that can take a month or two, and the world won't end- it will be a pleasant surprise when the "duty to pay" card finally arrives. My expensive backorder with thomann.de? I'm wanting that before the end of the year. At least they use a courier, even if it is bloody UPS.

I once shipped a Russian-made valve headamp to the US via Fedex, mind. They nearly lost their minds, I had to use Google Translate to answer their additional questions, as it was smuggled to me via surface post to avoid various kinds of Russian fuckery.

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Re: Why buy used at recent market prices?

Post by skreetis » Sun Sep 13, 2020 5:45 pm

As someone who doesn’t make a lot of money, but has expensive interests, buying secondhand is, by and large, the way I obtain most of my gear. The trick is to be patient. Wait for a deal. Sometimes you can nab mint to near-mint modules for 2/3 or less of the price of new ones. Sometimes this price difference can be a couple hundred bucks, all told. Well worth the extra time and effort, in my opinion.

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Re: Why buy used at recent market prices?

Post by Kattefjaes » Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:14 pm

skreetis wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 5:45 pm
As someone who doesn’t make a lot of money, but has expensive interests, buying secondhand is, by and large, the way I obtain most of my gear. The trick is to be patient. Wait for a deal. Sometimes you can nab mint to near-mint modules for 2/3 or less of the price of new ones. Sometimes this price difference can be a couple hundred bucks, all told. Well worth the extra time and effort, in my opinion.
Also, I have at least one module that I love which I didn't think of tracking down full price, but when a nicely-priced used one came up here it was suddenly tempting. I'm now the proud owner of a Lyra8-fx and ye gods, that thing's fun. I am still not 100% sure what's going on, but have used it in two projects so far and am very happy with it.

I'm chalking that one up to serendipity, which is a great thing. I also wonder if I'm not about to start making industrial music again as a result. No regrets.

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Re: Why buy used at recent market prices?

Post by BlinkyLights » Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:28 pm

Why? Because gear doesn't grow on trees.

And it's virtually always cheaper used, so it saves $.

And it all adds up over time. Simple math, really.

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Re: Why buy used at recent market prices?

Post by oscilloscope » Mon Sep 14, 2020 6:46 am

Drillionaire wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 10:31 am
Lux A Turner wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 7:19 am
That's a bit of a weak argument, though. Buying an 'unpopular' manufacturer's gear from anywhere still creates / supports the market for their products.
I didn’t say it was a good argument I meant it was the only reason I would personally ever pay anywhere near market price for a used piece of gear.
Wow, "morally bankrupt" .... let's check the criminal records, environmental practices, employees compensation packages, Christmas bonuses, etc.. of all the gear makers CEOs, and excutives, and stockholders, and suppliers (including steel, plastic, and electronic components producers) and their dealers and the shipping companies ....

Not saying it's your case, but this wokemania is going to kill the joy of making art.

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Re: Why buy used at recent market prices?

Post by thevegasnerve » Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:20 am

Minimoog56 wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 5:35 pm
Reverb has been terrible lately. I was in the market for a Shure mic that is $399 new and all the used mics were selling at $360-450! Plus you have taxes and shipping on top. You can usually get what you want with an offer including ship at 70-80% new but you have to be patient. There used to be an unspoken rule on this forum that you offer at 80% for current production available items but that has gone out the window a while ago.
Yeah, and when people start breaking that unspoken code to profit in the short term it just breaks down the community. If we are going to start acting like this place is the free market, then that’s a shame.

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Re: Why buy used at recent market prices?

Post by IR » Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:47 am

Ceres wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 12:39 pm
I’ve sold gear on reverb that can be acquired new for the price I it sold for. :hmm:
So you ripped people off, and are recommending they don't buy from you?

Kattefjaes wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 5:44 pm
I once shipped a Russian-made valve headamp to the US via Fedex, mind. They nearly lost their minds, I had to use Google Translate to answer their additional questions, as it was smuggled to me via surface post to avoid various kinds of Russian fuckery.
This is interesting. I'm not sure what you mean, you acted as middleman to ship an amp from Russia to the US? What kind of amp was it?

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Re: Why buy used at recent market prices?

Post by Jason Brock » Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:52 am

Tofupancho wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 5:42 pm
It seems like every listing gets a dozen lowball offers. Retail has proven that people are a lot happier feeling like they got a deal.
I have not had much of a problem with lowball offers, and I think it's because I price everything for a fair and quick sale. If it's priced correctly, it won't be around long enough to get lowballers.

If an item is readily available brand new, you can assume a 10% - 15% off coupon exists somewhere out there so that anyone who cares to dig around or haggle can get that item for less than the "suggested retail" price. So if you are pricing your USED items in the 10% - 15% off range, the ONLY break you are passing along to the buyer is potentially not paying sales tax (if not using Reverb or Ebay). Extra kudos if you give them a break on shipping, or ship for free. 20% - 25% off brand new is what I would consider an acceptable range for used gear in excellent condition.

Most of the people selling on Reverb are delusional. Quite often I see used gear that is priced around 10% less than new, but then they are still asking for shipping on top, and Reverb will also charge taxes to the buyer. So it actually costs MORE than retail. With regard to the US, depending on which state you live in you can still probably find a retailer that does not charge sales tax and offers free shipping. I know of 2 retailers that still do not charge tax to my state (Alto Music and Pitbull Audio). So if you sell used gear on Reverb or Ebay, you need to account for all these things. A buyer doesn't care what your seller fees are, or how much you originally paid.
Tofupancho wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 5:42 pm
Mostly I think it’s just that nobody is all that excited about leaving money on the table.
This is the truth, but people selling used gear need to get over the concept that they are going to recoup the full price they originally paid for something. Unless the item is vintage or discontinued.

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Re: Why buy used at recent market prices?

Post by crowleywaltz » Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:01 am

Jason Brock wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:52 am
Tofupancho wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 5:42 pm
It seems like every listing gets a dozen lowball offers. Retail has proven that people are a lot happier feeling like they got a deal.
I have not had much of a problem with lowball offers, and I think it's because I price everything for a fair and quick sale. If it's priced correctly, it won't be around long enough to get lowballers.
I sometimes have it the other way around, people lowball you when you list low because they assume you're desperate. If an item sells new at 900, at average used market price at 700, and I list it low to sell quickly in the 600-650 range, I almost always first get a lowball offer of 400 or 500. I don't mind considering offers, especially if it's been sitting a few days without selling, but c'mon guys

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Re: Why buy used at recent market prices?

Post by Kattefjaes » Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:05 am

IR wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:47 am
This is interesting. I'm not sure what you mean, you acted as middleman to ship an amp from Russia to the US? What kind of amp was it?
Nothing that exciting. I bought a cheap but weirdly nice transformer-coupled tube headamp made by a company in Moscow with no export capability- a friendly Russian helped surface ship it and avoid the Russian postal system causing havoc. It felt more cloak and dagger than it was- if you shipped it by air, they were more likely to open it, try to charge loads, but potentially massively delay/lose it too.

After a while, I never up with too many tube amps to fit on my desk, so I sold it, to a guy in the US. There was all sorts of terror from Fedex, as I shipped it in the original shipping carton (correctly labelled), but covered in cyrillic printed text too. It took a while explaining what it was, and translating address of the manufacturer etc. for them before they'd release it and deliver it to him. I was obviously happy to help, and he wasn't being a dick about it either, so we got there in the end.

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Re: Why buy used at recent market prices?

Post by twentyfive2lyfe » Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:48 am

Unless it's a very expensive item, I'll buy used even if it's close to new list price. If I can save $20, not pay sales tax, and help out a reputable seller by buying used, I will. You can't go into eurorack thinking about getting deals or saving money at all, it's a lost cause unless you're really into DIY.

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Re: Why buy used at recent market prices?

Post by Drillionaire » Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:41 am

oscilloscope wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 6:46 am
Drillionaire wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 10:31 am
Lux A Turner wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 7:19 am
That's a bit of a weak argument, though. Buying an 'unpopular' manufacturer's gear from anywhere still creates / supports the market for their products.
I didn’t say it was a good argument I meant it was the only reason I would personally ever pay anywhere near market price for a used piece of gear.
Wow, "morally bankrupt" .... let's check the criminal records, environmental practices, employees compensation packages, Christmas bonuses, etc.. of all the gear makers CEOs, and excutives, and stockholders, and suppliers (including steel, plastic, and electronic components producers) and their dealers and the shipping companies ....

Not saying it's your case, but this wokemania is going to kill the joy of making art.
Cool ad hominem argument.

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Re: Why buy used at recent market prices?

Post by clapclap » Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:01 pm

I would argue that buying used means less resources being used to make another of the same product meaning less waste in the future.

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Re: Why buy used at recent market prices?

Post by xonetacular » Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:26 pm

BananaPlug wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 5:00 pm
There's also the argument that relocating an unwanted module to a new user is simply more efficient in the grand scheme of things.
Yes... the new gear market has gotten way out of hand too with companies constantly releasing new products with minor revisions, or things that don't really offer anything new but a new package on the same concept. Why is there such an obsession with "supporting" every company out there racing to pump out products? Assuming the prices aren't totally out of line why isn't there also a push to support every day individuals who might also be struggling or need to make back some money?

From an environmental and sustainability side isn't it better to buy used instead of creating demand for even more electronic waste and environmental impacts from manufacturing and feeding the demand for companies to pump out endless new products every year? Is it really such a good thing that there are hundreds of synth companies racing to pump out "new" products just to compete with each other and beat the used market?

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Re: Why buy used at recent market prices?

Post by Flounderguts » Mon Sep 14, 2020 2:00 pm

xonetacular wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:26 pm
From an environmental and sustainability side isn't it better to buy used instead of creating demand for even more electronic waste and environmental impacts from manufacturing and feeding the demand for companies to pump out endless new products every year? Is it really such a good thing that there are hundreds of synth companies racing to pump out "new" products just to compete with each other and beat the used market?
Electronic music is hard to make any environmental or sustainable argument for. Whether it's e-waste not in the landfill or the fuel required to move a used module from place to place. I'm afraid the spectre of capitalism and dreams of success overpower any salient arguments otherwise.

Thankfully, most of these solid-state machines have the potential to outlast humankind. It sure would be cool if we could make this stuff out of inert, non-toxic, non-hormonally active, recyclable materials...but not yet.

If you want to buy used, do it. Buy new, great! Eliminating toilet paper and wiping your bum with a rag will have more impact, environmentally.
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Re: Why buy used at recent market prices?

Post by xonetacular » Mon Sep 14, 2020 2:19 pm

Flounderguts wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 2:00 pm

Electronic music is hard to make any environmental or sustainable argument for. Whether it's e-waste not in the landfill or the fuel required to move a used module from place to place. I'm afraid the spectre of capitalism and dreams of success overpower any salient arguments otherwise.
Fuel is also required to move a new item and deliver it to a retailer who then delivers to the end consumer, so the impact just there from transport is more compared to just shipping a used item directly. Then there is the additional impact of mining resources for components and all that goes into manufacturing. However you want to quantify it there is definitely more of an impact from buying new.

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Re: Why buy used at recent market prices?

Post by baboo » Mon Sep 14, 2020 2:42 pm

That is quite weird. I haven't sold or traded anything for a while. But back a few years ago when I was building my modular system it was normal for people here on the forum to sell at 70% new value, unless the module was totally mint and almost new- then it could be somewhere close to 80%. Personally I would consider is quite rude to put something used for sale at 80-90% new value.

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Re: Why buy used at recent market prices?

Post by naxuu » Mon Sep 14, 2020 2:56 pm

I still regularly see people selling used modules at 70% of new value, or lower. I generally only pull the trigger if that's the case. I think every, or almost every module in my rack has been a great deal that I waited patiently to stumble upon. In some cases, they were bought for more like 60% of new value. On top of that, not paying a sales tax is a big deal in my area, where sales tax is nearly 10% (once state, county, and city sales taxes are totalled up). So given all that, cutting out middlemen (whether they're Perfect Circuit or Reverb) and buying direct from a used seller ends up being a significant discount if, like me, you're patient, semi-obsessive about checking used forums regularly, and very quick on the draw once a good deal is spotted.

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Re: Why buy used at recent market prices?

Post by slumberjack » Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:29 pm

Sleepfc wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 1:09 am
do PayPal Friends and Family instead.
Be careful with that. I never had problems until suddently I lost more than 1k due to my good believes.
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Re: Why buy used at recent market prices?

Post by Tofupancho » Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:39 pm

Jason Brock wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:52 am
This is the truth, but people selling used gear need to get over the concept that they are going to recoup the full price they originally paid for something. Unless the item is vintage or discontinued.
Some do, if they’re hurting for the money. Many don’t need to do anything at all. They might be happy to keep wiggling it until someone pays the price that makes it worth giving up. There’s a lot of manipulation in retail. The marketing team composed of former NASA scientists, the righteously indignant consumer who will degrade a shop girl to get $4 off a pair of jeans. I agree with the original sentiment and I’ve bought new because there wasn’t enough of a deal used many times. But I’ve also just not sold to people who acted upset with me because I wasn’t in a race to end up with the least cash.

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Re: Why buy used at recent market prices?

Post by Kja » Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:47 pm

I'm not gonna buy new.. I refuse to spend money on something I know I could get cheaper.. and I would rather get a "used" item in mint condition then a "open box" from a retailer and roll the dice on condition. If someone is trying to sell something I want I would feel bad buying it new knowing I'm basically creating a another item when I could relieve someone of something they're trying to get rid of.

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Re: Why buy used at recent market prices?

Post by khyber » Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:09 am

xonetacular wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:26 pm
From an environmental and sustainability side isn't it better to buy used instead of creating demand for even more electronic waste and environmental impacts from manufacturing and feeding the demand for companies to pump out endless new products every year? Is it really such a good thing that there are hundreds of synth companies racing to pump out "new" products just to compete with each other and beat the used market?
Despite some value-signaling from other comments, this is one of my main motivations for buying used instead of new. Electronics aren't built to order (with the exception of Natural Gate :hihi: ), a manufacturer does a run of X units. That's a sunk cost environmentally speaking, but if people resell items from the first run and the manufacturer doesn't have to create a second run of Y units, there's an environmental benefit there.

Is to going to change the world? No. Does it help foster a conscious consumer mindset? Absolutely. And that's a good thing. Also FWIW, boutique modular manufacturers aren't the net carbon emitters and e-waste generators of the world so please don't mount that high horse here. What's important is that people recognize their own impact on the economy, environment, etc and operate accordingly. Individuals can't impact the entire market, they can impact locally though.

Something to consider from the used vs retail pricing perspective too, items are worth what the market thinks they're worth. I find it hard to make a realistic argument for saying "X retails for Y, therefore your used price should be Y minus 30%". It's an objective argument and that's the point in this conversation, but it's not practical by itself as a yard stick for resale value. If the price of electronics followed the deflation of the value of a dollar that would be great too, but it ain't happening.

But are you still a dick if you list a used item for retail or way over retail prices (Reverb sellers I'm looking at you)? Yes! I don't need a hard and fast rule to make that determination.

When I resell I will take a quick peek around other listings for the same item and price my item around that mark (less if it's blemished, doesn't have the original box, etc). This gives me an idea of what people are valuing the item at today. I'm not doing this to get the best price, I'm doing it because I want to sell something and offer it at a fair value so it has a better chance of selling. And hey, if my price is wildly off I always encourage buyers to message me and let me know. I'm not doing a technical analysis to determine price like a stockbroker would. I just want to consolidate my gear, raise some cash, and get on with my life.

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Re: Why buy used at recent market prices?

Post by thevegasnerve » Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:19 am

khyber wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:09 am
xonetacular wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:26 pm
From an environmental and sustainability side isn't it better to buy used instead of creating demand for even more electronic waste and environmental impacts from manufacturing and feeding the demand for companies to pump out endless new products every year? Is it really such a good thing that there are hundreds of synth companies racing to pump out "new" products just to compete with each other and beat the used market?
Despite some value-signaling from other comments, this is one of my main motivations for buying used instead of new. Electronics aren't built to order (with the exception of Natural Gate :hihi: ), a manufacturer does a run of X units. That's a sunk cost environmentally speaking, but if people resell items from the first run and the manufacturer doesn't have to create a second run of Y units, there's an environmental benefit there.

Is to going to change the world? No. Does it help foster a conscious consumer mindset? Absolutely. And that's a good thing. Also FWIW, boutique modular manufacturers aren't the net carbon emitters and e-waste generators of the world so please don't mount that high horse here. What's important is that people recognize their own impact on the economy, environment, etc and operate accordingly. Individuals can't impact the entire market, they can impact locally though.

Something to consider from the used vs retail pricing perspective too, items are worth what the market thinks they're worth. I find it hard to make a realistic argument for saying "X retails for Y, therefore your used price should be Y minus 30%". It's an objective argument and that's the point in this conversation, but it's not practical by itself as a yard stick for resale value. If the price of electronics followed the deflation of the value of a dollar that would be great too, but it ain't happening.

But are you still a dick if you list a used item for retail or way over retail prices (Reverb sellers I'm looking at you)? Yes! I don't need a hard and fast rule to make that determination.

When I resell I will take a quick peek around other listings for the same item and price my item around that mark (less if it's blemished, doesn't have the original box, etc). This gives me an idea of what people are valuing the item at today. I'm not doing this to get the best price, I'm doing it because I want to sell something and offer it at a fair value so it has a better chance of selling. And hey, if my price is wildly off I always encourage buyers to message me and let me know. I'm not doing a technical analysis to determine price like a stockbroker would. I just want to consolidate my gear, raise some cash, and get on with my life.
I agree this is small potatoes for environmental concerns, geez check your trash. Ha! this is coming from an environmental consultant. But just being a cool member of a great community is what we should be striving for. Dont take advantage of a short term situation if possible. Although some vintage stuff is creeping up big time.. If it sells, well thats just where we are at as more people enter the synth community, which I believe is still growing..

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